Help Needed Regarding Ballasting.

[Guest]

Hello everyone,

 

 

Really need some help regarding ballasting.... just can't get it right.

 

I decided to have a quick go at ballasting on my practice plank - wish I didn't now. Nothing every goes right when I try to do it.

 

I recently purchased a 'ballast spreader' but it is frankly useless because all the ballast just comes out the central hole and the ballast just goes in-between the rails, no ballast goes on either side of the rails like it is supposed to. So I collected it up and tried again, still no success. And again, and again. Still no joy here. So I thought I might as well give it a go by hand, that went terribly wrong as well - don't know if it is just me or does ballasting always go wrong lol.

 

I couldn't get it right, mainly on either side, it is really hard to get a proper 'shoulder' type look like in real life don't know if this because there is no underlay - do you think I should have some? And there seems to be too much ballast in the middle because some stays on the sleepers even after brushing. I gave this a few goes and after about the 3rd attempt I got something I was happy 'ish' with, so I wet it and then glued it down using 50/50 water and PVA with some washing up liquid in... 5 hours later I came back to check on it, gluing wise everything had gone ok and it was soaking in nicely but the stupid ballast just didn't look right again. The track seems to sit 'on top' of the ballast if you see what I mean - just looked really unrealistic. So I cut off the bit of the tracks that I have ballasted and now I am wondering what to do, so frustrating! Any advice? Everyone else seems to be able to do it, is it just because this is my first time or...?

 

 

 

Thanks very much as always, Oli

 

 

EDIT: I am using Green Scene's ballast mate if that helps at all.... (http://www.green-sce...llast Mate.html)

[jazz]

Go onto 'youtube' type '00 track ballasting', there are loads of videos showing you how to do it. Quite a few are really good, a lot are rubbish, so find the good ones that will work for you.

 

PS I saw the ballast spreader being used on youtube, I thought it was just a gimmick.

 

My own method of pouring the ballast onto the track with a small pouring jug and brushing into place with a 1/2" flat artists brush works very well for me. Then using an eye dropper, soak with 50/50 PVA/water with a big drop of washing up liquid gives great results. Careful use of the eye dropper prevents the ballast moving out of place. (Using a spray bottle is too messy and can easy blow the ballast everywhere but where it should be.)

 

I do go along the track later to carefully remove unwanted ballast that may be on top of the sleepers and in the check rails etc., before the glue goes off of course.

 

The next day, I repeat the glue soaking excercise, filling in any areas I not happy with.

[Guest]

Thanks Jazz, will do that now and have a look. Have seen a good one by Everard Junction - he has a great layout by the way - it's just a shame he doesn't show him applying all the ballast (he cuts it out)

 

Some of them are just a gimmick but some are very good, just seems the one I have doesn't work or I am doing something wrong - probably the later lol

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIo2O3K1sIA

 

Thanks for your advice, will try that out along with Shanks552 method as well.

 

 

 

Oli

[Gwiwer]

I don't model in N but I do have a little experience of ballasting N-gauge track. This was using Woodland Fine products but the technique should be readily useable with anything similar.

 

The product was shaken lightly out along the track to be ballasted and brushed into place using very light strokes with a soft half-inch paint brush. For fine ballast my choice would be one of the "Rembrandt" style which has a good sharp edge with fairly soft and long hairs. I found light strokes with that along the rails did most of the work. Tidying up was then completed using the same brush but with the edge parallel to rather than across the rails.

 

Bottle-spraying can be disruptive to fine ballast unless you can achieve a very fine spray indeed. I used the dropper method but care must be taken that it doesn't flood and create a wash-out.

 

Has anyone used "Klear" successfully on fine ballast and if so how was it applied?

[96701]

I use a syringe (without a needle) to apply the glue/water/washing up liquid solution after spraying the whole lot with a mister (aka former windolene bottle). I apply the ballast similarly to how Jazz describes above, aand apply the fluid from each side of the track, rather down the middle.

[HLT 0109]

I think the answer is "keep practising". I work in 00 gauge and imagine that N gauge is much trickier. Ballasting is a job to do slowly. I have not used the spreader gadget but, when I have seen it demonstrated it does seem to put ballast outside the rails as well as between - but it won't work over points and crossovers. Whatever you use to place the dry ballast, great care and patience is needed to get the level right and to form the shoulders. I have not found a brush to be very helpful in this respect (except in tidying up the edges outside the rails) and prefer to use my fingers. You need also to check there is no build-up of ballast against the inside edge of the rails. Once that is done, it is all too easy to disturb one's careful work in the wetting stage prior to gluing; a very gentle mist is needed of water with a drop of washing up liquid in it - even a slightly too enthusiastic spray will cause havock (as will a sigh!). I have found spreading the PVA/water mix (again with a drop of washing up liquid) to be the easy bit. I made up my own dispenser from a 300ml plastic bottle with a screw top. I made a hole in the top to take a long piece of clear plastic tubing. Inverting the bottle at about shoulder level and guiding the end of the tube with the other hand, I have found that I can get an even spread of the mix fairly easily - running a finger along one of the rails helps keep the tube steady and gentle pressure on the bottle controls the flow.

 

Not sure about underlay. Mostly I have used 3.5mm cork and it causes more ballast to be needed. In one area I have omitted the underlay and have been able to create shoulders from the edge of the sleepers. Five hours is a very short time to allow for drying. I find that mine is still soft after 24 hours.

 

I hope something in this is helpful.

 

Harold.

[R A Watson]

Reading the original post the thing which strikes me in the eye is that the ballast is only coming out of the central hole! Have you checked that the holes feeding the two sides are clear and allowing the material through?

 

Alternatively is the ballast of of such a size it will got through the holes, I know that particle size varies according to manufacturer indeed I use supposedly N gauge material on 7mm scale models as I think it is a better looking finish.

 

Please do not take these comments as any form of insult but we all overlook the simplest things at times, good luck with your further efforts.

[Guest]

Thanks Gwiwer for that information. And thank you 96701 for sharing your method as well.

 

HLT 0109 yes I am going to keep at it lol, I'm not giving up yet! It's interesting you say that about OO and N, I have just had a go at ballasting some OO gauge track (I have some old pieces laying around) and I found it MUCH easier than N. To be honest I thought it looked quite good. And thank you for the information, I will be careful not to disturb the ballast. Oh and regarding the 5 hours thing, what I meant to say was that after 5 hours I came back and checked on it to see how it was doing and that's when I was unhappy with it and decided to rip it up. Had I been happy with it however I would have left it for at least 24 hours. Thanks again.

 

RA Watson yes it is very annoying that the ballast doesn't come out the two sides holes. Yes they are most certainly clear and I have even contemplated trying to file them to make them bigger. And yes the ballast is Javis Ex. Fine so it definitely will fit. I have already phoned 'Green Scene' and explained to them. He told me their product works perfectly fine and to push it not pull. I don't really want to call back and inform him it doesn't work again as I don't want to come across as rude - what do you think? And no I don't take any of these comments as insults - if it wasn't for RMweb I don't know where I would be. Thanks very much.

 

 

 

 

Oli

[Guest]

Hello everyone,

 

Had a go at ballasting a short section of track again this morning - this time by hand. Like advised I watched various videos on YouTube for OO gauge and N. There only seems to be a few N gauge ballasting videos around (decent ones anyway!) Anyway I had a go and here's where I am at:

 

 

 

I personally think it looks better than last time but I am still not quite happy with it. What do you guys think? Any more advice now you can see how bad I am lol?

 

 

 

Thanks again, Oli

[Jack00]

Oli... That actually looks really good. Get rid of the excess and a touch of rust on the chairs, maybe a few darker patches to represent spills.

 

But your effort you've shown above does look good, honest.

 

Jack.

[Guest]

Thanks very much Jack, are you just trying to be kind lol?

 

When you say excess where are you referring to? Inside or the outsides of the rails? Or everywhere lol.

 

 

Oli

[cromptonnut]

One way I've found of keeping a straight line at the edge of the ballast is to stick some masking tape the required distance either side of the track, then when you have laid the ballst remove the masking tape and whatever is on top of it, then do the gluing bit and it should give a good edge.

[Jack00]

Haha no I'm being serious

I meant just around the edges to make it a bit neater, but I guess once your happy with the ballest then grass and bushes will be added? Then it wouldn't need tidying so to speak, as it would be shrubs and grass beside the ballasted area... If that makes sense lol!

 

But great choice of ballast and looks very authentic.

 

Jack.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Thanks very much then lol.

 

Yes this is only my practice plank but I will be adding some grasses, shrubs, bushes etc. so I can get a feel for what I like to use on the real layout. Speaking of the real layout, there have been some huge changes so I might make a post on it later.

 

 

Thanks again Jack, much appreciated, Oli

[tender]

 

Bottle-spraying can be disruptive to fine ballast unless you can achieve a very fine spray indeed. I used the dropper method but care must be taken that it doesn't flood and create a wash-out.

 

Has anyone used "Klear" successfully on fine ballast and if so how was it applied?

 

I've used the green scene ballaster quite successfully in oo but with n gauge size ballast. It was fixed in place using 'Klear' but I found after a few months it was showing signs of cracking up so i gave it another coat of 50/50 pva. I used a eye type dropper but as you say you have to be careful of flooding and washout. I found spraying just blew the ballast everywhere.

 

I'm going to try a technique a friend uses with finescale track next.

Mask the extents of the ballast, coat liberally with pva and remove maksing tape. Lay track on top and cover with ballast. When dry hover up the excess. It looks good and sounds quick and easy but.........

[jazz]

That looks OK to me. I think the ballast looks a little on the course side but not personally working in 2mm scale, perhaps that is the finest ballast you can get in 2mm?

[Guest]

I've used the green scene ballaster quite successfully in oo but with n gauge size ballast. It was fixed in place using 'Klear' but I found after a few months it was showing signs of cracking up so i gave it another coat of 50/50 pva. I used a eye type dropper but as you say you have to be careful of flooding and washout. I found spraying just blew the ballast everywhere.

 

I'm going to try a technique a friend uses with finescale track next.

Mask the extents of the ballast, coat liberally with pva and remove maksing tape. Lay track on top and cover with ballast. When dry hover up the excess. It looks good and sounds quick and easy but.........

 

Hmmmm that's interesting to know. Seems I am the one of a few then. I just can't see why the heck it isn't coming out the side holes!

 

Good luck with that technique, hope it goes well. Sounds quite effective and quick - mind you, is there such thing as 'quick' ballasting?

 

 

Oli

 

That looks OK to me. I think the ballast looks a little on the course side but not personally working in 2mm scale, perhaps that is the finest ballast you can get in 2mm?

 

Coarse? The ballast is Javis Extra Fine, is there anything finer than that available? Other than sand....

 

 

Oli

[HLT 0109]

In my experience, ballasting looks better once the sleepers and rails have been painted. Painting gives me my greatest challenge so my ballasting has not been painted but I used a mix of colours from Woodland Scenics. However, I painted the rails and sleepers before ballasting. You asked Jack00 "what excess" - if you look closely at your photos, you can see the odd bit of ballast sitting above sleeper level; I found I could remove such pieces with a small screwdriver after drying - a slow but rewarding exercise. If you really want to see "problems" with track and ballasting, sending a tiny camera round fixed to a wagon in front of a loco can make very uncomfortable viewing!

[R A Watson]

oli,

 

Having looked at your video several times on the bigger screen of my P C rather than the Ipad which I normally use to view these forums I noticed that although you state that Mr Green Scenes told you to pull the device you are in fact pushing it, the idea of pulling the applicator is to allow the back edge to slightly lift and allow the ballast to fall to a greater depth which is then spread as the applicator moves along to fill the voids and give a better finish. i suggest if you have not yet tried this then give it a go and see what happens.

 

Your photo of the "manually" laid section is, as others have said, better than you think, and equal to a lot of others results on here, myself included.

 

Now have a look at the following picture -

 

 

This is a small sample of some trackwork I made earlier (as they used to say on Blue Peter) but it is somewhat larger than what you are doing, being of some Irish 3 foot gauge track in 7mm scale - BUT - the ballast is sold as a N gauge product, unfortunately stone is never realy to scale and proper scale N gauge ballast would be only dust and not visible to the normal eye when fixed on the layout.

 

In this picture look at the ratio of size between the workers feet, and the stone they are digging out, then translate this to the little people who will one day inhabit your layout.

 

 

Dont give up, keep trying, but expect to have to reach some compromise between what you get and what you want especially in the smaller scales

 

Wally

[TomE]

Has anyone used "Klear" successfully on fine ballast and if so how was it applied?

 

I've been using Kleer to fix ballast in place for sometime now, and I wouldn't ever go back to PVA!

 

On my Ropley project I've used it in conjuction with Treemendus earth powder, which is much finer than Woodland scenics fine ballast, and I apply it by dripping it on with an old paintbrush. Capillary action does most of the hard work and it doesn't disturb your neatly laid ballast!

 

 

It's interesting that some have reported cracking when using Kleer. Some Woodland Scenics fine ballast on a section of layout which is now 3 years old and fixed with Kleer is stil fine, although I am usually pretty liberal in its application, so perhaps the key is not to be shy with it!

 

Tom.

[Guest]

Thanks very much for the reply Wally, very kind of you. And thank you for the pics, I have to say your track-work looks very nice, well done indeed! And yes realistically it would be practically dust...

 

Having looked at your video several times on the bigger screen of my P C rather than the Ipad which I normally use to view these forums I noticed that although you state that Mr Green Scenes told you to pull the device you are in fact pushing it, the idea of pulling the applicator is to allow the back edge to slightly lift and allow the ballast to fall to a greater depth which is then spread as the applicator moves along to fill the voids and give a better finish. i suggest if you have not yet tried this then give it a go and see what happens.

 

I think you may have got confused here Wally, Mr. Green Scenes told me to push the ballast spreader and NOT to pull. Regardless I have tried everything possible under the sun and it still doesn't work - not too happy about it really.

 

And thanks Tom for sharing that info, and once again lovely work there - looks very good, has the layout got a thread? Must check it out....

 

 

Thanks again chaps, Oli

[TomE]

Hi Oli.

 

The Construction of the layout is being documented in my blog:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/347-tomes-n-gauge-modelling/

 

Cheers!

 

Tom.

[Kris]

When I ballast I pin old straws along the edge of the shoulder. The ballast can then be tamped up to this. Once wetted then glued the straws help keep it all in place until they are removed. Because they are plastic the glue does not tend to stick to them which means that you end up with neater ballast shoulders.

[beast66606]

I found spraying just blew the ballast everywhere.

 

Spray over the track and let the mist fall like rain onto the ballast, never spray directly.

[Gwiwer]

If you are going to spray then you need the spray as fine as you can get it. A gentle sweeping action and a light squeeze on the trigger will help compared with aiming the nozzle straight at the track and pulling sharply on the trigger.