Guest 838rapid Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 What a intersting read,one wants to invest in west coast,one wants to cream it... The bearded one wins on this one too!! Worst Group have shown their true colours again. Strip and plunder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted September 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2012 To be fair, First have also promised substantial investments - not least in new trains and new services (which surely must be good for jobs?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 The word farce is now be banding about will this is - a privitised railway effectively run directly by the Government ! I really don't care anymore who wins the WCML franchise now, because as a passenger I am nothing more than a cash cow to be milked by whoever wins! This mess is going to roll on and on and it is worth remembering remember East Coast is another farse/;mess still being run directly by the Government too! I predict that the railways will run up a increasing deficit which will require a Beeching Plan 2 -dramatic cuts in services and more eye watering fare increases! HS2 is a pipe dream will not now happen; if you can't run the existing railway why build a new one! Very depressed with it all! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I predict that the railways will run up a increasing deficit which will require a Beeching Plan 2 -dramatic cuts in services and more eye watering fare increases! HS2 is a pipe dream will not now happen; if you can't run the existing railway why build a new one! Very depressed with it all! In England possibly. Go north of the border and the picture is raher different. Have a read up re the various new lines, completed and under way. It should cheer you up a bit. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 You want to calm down a bit.......Whatever is said and and done, the Railway has been privatisedfor at least 16 years ( thats over a third the time British Railways existed, and well over half the time the LMS did) and it still works ok from what I see......Ok some Commuters into London town might get the "not so good" end of the stick - but for those of us in the important bits of the country, the Railway may be a touch expensive, but it works... and no doubt will continue to do so for a long time to come I am very calm but have had some dire experiences when traveling on both first a and Virgin operated services. Cornwall has suffered too as when Wessex Trains lost the franchise Cornwall really suffered when @ 125 coaches were stored!. first has made some improvements since such as the loop at Penryn which the EU paid for, obtaining Class 150's from Silver Link and then transferred the Class 158's to other services! British Rail was not perfect but it was joined up and run by railwaymen rather than bus companies and Knights of the Realm! Maybe the answer is to fully privitise the railway with no Government involvement, strip out all the time and money spent on franchise bids etc. A properly run railway with the current high fares should make a good railway company a handsome profit or just nationalise it again - The current situation is not sustainable it just needs someone in power to see this rather than just keep making the same mistakes time and time again. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 This is worth reading, certainly seems that (on facevalue at least) the First bid won on price alone, the list of improvements and investment from Virgin being substanially higher, maybe one reason why they opted to pay less............. http://www.railnews....coast-bids.html The article is very fair, and stays out of that area as it's very hard to prove either way. For instance First is doing a heavy rework on the Pendo's and Voyagers (increasing seating capacity) - under Virgin the Pendo's just get a refresh (read new seat covers). Under First it would also appear that you'll end up with a larger fleet as well as they add 11 units, whereas Virgin add 26, but lose all the Voyagers. For instance, does Virgin's figure include the new trains (my suspicion is yes!) - despite the fact they won't actually be spending that money? Some of Virgin's other idea's strike me as offers to do things that may not have been wanted by the DfT anyhow, such as a train to Stirling, and 135mph running (more cost, more complexity, less capacity, and irrelevant under HS2?) I'm also sceptical of First's 3 classes idea, although a better way to market that huge chunk of off-peak 1st capacity is no bad thing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 You want to calm down a bit.......Whatever is said and and done, the Railway has been privatisedfor at least 16 years ( thats over a third the time British Railways existed, and well over half the time the LMS did) and it still works ok from what I see......Ok some Commuters into London town might get the "not so good" end of the stick - but for those of us in the important bits of the country, the Railway may be a touch expensive, but it works... and no doubt will continue to do so for a long time to come I couldn't disagree more. You think its ok, well..... Lack of stock/capacity/ being conveyed in cramped conditions/ seats not in line with windows/ diesel trains running long distances under wires because a company only has diesel trains/ connections not being held because its a different company/ no railway research department / Fares a joke. £120 walk on fare for Gloucester to Newcastle return. If four of you went, nearly £500. cheaper to get a taxi/ cant drop off sleeper cars at Plymouth because company wont 'hire in' a shunter/ what happened to 'extra' holiday trains and cheap 'merrymaker' type excursions using spare assets at weekends/ the list is endless Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 cant drop off sleeper cars at Plymouth because company wont 'hire in' a shunter That cannot be the reason, as First have shunters in Plymouth already...more likely is it's not worthwhile paying two chaps plus an 08 to hang around all night to couple up one coach and uncouple one coach. The revenue you can earn from that one coach does not come close to it. / what happened to 'extra' holiday trains and cheap 'merrymaker' type excursions using spare assets at weekends Most likely it's already being used and isn't spare any more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 You want to calm down a bit.......Whatever is said and and done, the Railway has been privatisedfor at least 16 years ( thats over a third the time British Railways existed, and well over half the time the LMS did) and it still works ok from what I see......Ok some Commuters into London town might get the "not so good" end of the stick - but for those of us in the important bits of the country, the Railway may be a touch expensive, but it works... and no doubt will continue to do so for a long time to come I had to chuckle at the "calm down" bit. British Rail built a lot of good stock over its lifetime,Yet these modern franchise operators are getting good money for lets face it old rope. Worst group have stated they are planning to fit more seats into a Pendo,Having had the misfortune of travelling cattle class to London town a few times I wonder just how they propose this,New airline seats no doubt like the FGW hts's are fitted with and no doubt First class will get the plus leather ones too. Lets squeezed them in.. As for seats with a view I doubt,perhaps now it will be only the back of the seat in front,Ok the Pendo has seating issues but it will get worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Where do I start to dismantle that argument? anyone would think I was a First fanboy Thier HSTs are at least as good as anything that isnt a Mk IV They run under the wires from somewhere near Reading ( or somewhere else near London town) thats aint exatly long on a 300 mile trip They do hold trains - ive been there at both ends of that stick Fares are not excessive if you book in advance or think about who is travelling and when and where Dont FGW "own" Laira and its shunters? more likely ther is no traffic from Plymouth to warrant an extra car on the sleeper...after all its nots exactly the middle of the night when it departs.... Merrymaker?? its not 1983 anymore........ diesel trains run long distances along the wcml. The HSTs are still superior than anything the current farce has come up with. Not 1983 anymore? dont i know it. we had a proper railway then. one that was more flexible, more comfortable, more affordable to the travelling public, had enough stock, and trains changed over from diesel to electric traction at New Street if the route ahead was wired. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 first - you cannot be serious more seats in a Pendolino they cramped enough already.and where do we do put all the additional luggage! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 hmmm BR was a bit of a ###### muddle....Rose tinted specs may make it seem better though..... Was it in a muddle or simply starting to be starved of cash? It was at least run and managed by experienced career railwaymen and from what i hear, there arn't too many of those left now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 In my experience the Gaffers stayed the same it was the shirt and tie that changed. We got to see the head gaffer's under TPE as they loved the public interaction,riding round on trains,and speaking to passengers. Although it was a bit off putting to have them knocking on your cab door. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 diesel trains run long distances along the wcml. The HSTs are still superior than anything the current farce has come up with. Not 1983 anymore? dont i know it. we had a proper railway then. one that was more flexible, more comfortable, more affordable to the travelling public, had enough stock, and trains changed over from diesel to electric traction at New Street if the route ahead was wired. And today the railway moves broadly double the people it did in 1983 on broadly the same network...imagine how many folk would be using it if they weren't doing everything wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 And today the railway moves broadly double the people it did in 1983 on broadly the same network...imagine how many folk would be using it if they weren't doing everything wrong. Totally agree ! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 And today the railway moves broadly double the people it did in 1983 on broadly the same network...imagine how many folk would be using it if they weren't doing everything wrong. Probably why the overcrowding is so bad. And luggage/bike space... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 What is the overcowding we hear of? Ok so its gets a bit busy round "big" cities at rush hour but its hardly the Railways fault that the people woh "work" in these cities all want to go home at the same time is it? Maybe they could go in to work and home a little bit earlier, or later? its not ecactly hard to see ways round the fabled rush hour sardine tin whinge...... So you havent ever travelled on a voyager then? Let me describe them. They go on journeys of about 200 miles and often only have four carriages. They do tend to be empty late evenings mind you. Yes I do know that the frequency has been roughly doubled on some routes since longer trains operated, but then i keep getting informed that passenger numbers have doubled too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 What is the overcowding we hear of? Ok so its gets a bit busy round "big" cities at rush hour but its hardly the Railways fault that the people woh "work" in these cities all want to go home at the same time is it? Maybe they could go in to work and home a little bit earlier, or later? its not ecactly hard to see ways round the fabled rush hour sardine tin whinge...... Maybe in Cornwall however in the Thames Valley at Maidenhead trains from 06:30 - 10:00 are all packed solid and in the evening from @ 16:30- 19:00. There also a severe lack of capacity in the evenings with trains on the relief get stuck behind Heathrow Connect or freight services. The situation is dire with arguments in the mornings on the trains Hayes and Harlington being a flash point as the Heathrow Connect trains which are not always full join the main line here here and passengers on the platform are advised that thee is a near empty Heathrow Connect Service behind the train in the station which is true but that just no longer believe first and try to force themselves into a sardine can. This results in delays and often near violent confrontation. I will happily swap your service in Cornwall for ours! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I avoid Voyagers at all costs...... and I think 200 miles is a bit shorter than Penz to Dundee or wherever they run to now.....though some have 5 cars and some are even made up to 9 cars...... they are still not fit for purpose though Well at least we have finally agreed on something! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I wasnt disagreeing with anytihng...I justt think that seeing as the Rialway has been privatised a long time that harking back to some mythical "BR was better" sortta time is a bit missing the point...BR had some good points, but so does the modern train set.... Despite it's many faults, perhaps the singular most important and worthwhile aspect of BR was that it was one entity, an entity which did manage to achieve great things despite the pitiful budget on which it survived for much of its existence. When we talk about privatisation, I can only sit back and wonder just what BR might have achieved with all the public money since lavished on a nonsensically 'private' railway! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 This is worth reading, certainly seems that (on facevalue at least) the First bid won on price alone, the list of improvements and investment from Virgin being substanially higher, maybe one reason why they opted to pay less............. http://www.railnews....coast-bids.html Virgin's idea for push-pull locos hauling Pendolinos off the electrified section is frankly bizarre - why not just go for a pantograph coach in the existing Voyagers as per the plan for Cross Country? The Virgin investment figures (as Railnews says) are higher but it's unclear what they cover and so you can't really do a direct comparison with First's figure. Virgin claim to be planning to put some of their own money in to track upgrades, some of which seem very vague (such as 135mph running without an indication of how they'd do the signalling). The only areas where Virgin really seems better are a much bigger investment in stations, and slightly higher payments in the 2016-2019 period. Ultimately, Virgin seem to be focussing on faster journey times, and First on carrying more people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Like I said, Its only been a few weeks 16 years minimum since they privatised the Railway ...BR was never one entity below serious suit level,,, that may be why they had things like Western Region, or latterly (?) Railfreight Distribution (thats only 25 years ago.... Really? So (for example) on the Western Region, who did the signallers, track maintainers, drivers, guards, station staff etc all work for, separate companies? Forced play acting at privatisation....sorry, sectorisation, is another notion entirely. BR's ability to pull the proverbial rabbit from the hat in often very challenging circumstances was to my mind a shining reflection on a much maligned and underfunded organisation and its staff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Im not criricising BR at all...Im just reminding the short of attention that it is a very long time ago that BR ceased to be...... Its not like privatisation is a new concept to deal with is it? It sort of works, no less than BR sort of worked.... Lets not forever live in the long gone past eh? Agree privatisation failed and was before nationalisation we certainly are living in the past at present! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Virgin's idea for push-pull locos hauling Pendolinos off the electrified section is frankly bizarre - why not just go for a pantograph coach in the existing Voyagers as per the plan for Cross Country? They were perhaps looking to a semi-uniform standardised fleet of EMUs across the franchise? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 A question to the floor of this (very (polarised) debate, Is there still a regulated standard charge per mile for rail travel (as there was in bygone BR days) or do the TOCs rob the customers / passengers now charge whatever they can get away with. ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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