"FirstGroup ...... frontrunner for west coast rail franchise"

[Ramblin Rich]

I can't see any reference to this elsewhere: Guardian story Mr Branson won't be happy....

Sounds like first are trying their hardest to get the franchise, but running the risk of going the same way as NatEx did with East Coast.

Interesting too about first bailing out of bus services in North Devon - I'd heard about Stagecoach possibly running these, but they left alone when competition commission was mentioned - then promptly announced new services on the most popular routes.

['CHARD]

As the article says, "according to one rail industry rumour..."

 

Everyone involved in the tendering process is subject to the normal purdah period, embargoing public release of commercially sensitive facts or material likely to prejudice the competition outcome.

 

It's not my place to comment on this or from where it may have emerged, but it's highly likely to be spurious. Wolmar was interviewed on this morning's Adrian Goldberg programme on the Guardian piece on BBC WM; for anyone who's interested, this will be available on i-player for a week.

[The Stationmaster]

Does anyone know if the 'Virgin' bid really is that or is it a bid from the present set-up of a joint Virgin/Stagecoach arrangement?

['CHARD]

The shortlisted bidder is simply 'Virgin Group Holdings.'

[Xerces Fobe2]

IMO bad news for the passenger which ever way it goes and we are stuck with those dreaded Pendolinos!

 

Whichever company wins the WCML franchise the passenger will most likely lose! It would be even more bazaar if Virgin Holdings (Virgin +Stagecoach) went on to win the Great Western franchise - I don't really see that happening though!

 

XF

[TheSignalEngineer]

IMO bad news for the passenger which ever way it goes and we are stuck with those dreaded Pendolinos!

 

Whichever company wins the WCML franchise the passenger will most likely lose! It would be even more bazaar if Virgin Holdings (Virgin +Stagecoach) went on to win the Great Western franchise - I don't really see that happening though!

 

XF

It's a bit like the old maintenance contracts. Those doing the job know how much it costs and bid accordingly - the others underbid then f*** it up when they get it.

 

I was involved in one where the incumbent bid £35m, we (all ex-BR people) bid £34m, and the Newbie bid £25m. The person awarding the contract said we could have it if we natched the lowest bid as our proposals were best. I told then where they could put it, as our proposal was the proper way of doing the job and I wasn't going to bankrupt the company.

 

The Newbie got the job and failed to meet the performance measures, eventually being taken off.

['CHARD]

Great Western shortlisted bidders:

1. Arriva
   
2. National express
   
3. Stagecoach (without Virgin)
   
4. First Group
   

['CHARD]

 

f*** it uk

 

 

Can I use this as a name for my spin-off anarcho-punk band, please?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Can I use this as a name for my spin-off anarcho-punk band, please?

Typo now corrected

[mp55aec]

If Arriva take Great Western, added to their Welsh operations and cross country all of the West of the Uk with the exception of the odd SWT workings would be under the Arriva banner,,as for First Group, they are raising lots of capital by selling off large areas of their UK bus operating business. including vast areas of Somerset and Devon so not much transport integration of inter availabilty on tickets there!!.

 

At the moment in South Wales you can purchase a day ticket valid on any First Group service rail or road in Wales, of your bus driver at your bus stop.

[lmsforever]

Noted that both contestants for wcml are talking of cutting catering and free food in first ,not a good idea when you consider the fares also cutting out the shops ,so what will they put in its place a vending machine that runs out by Watford,progress I dont think.Hope that First keep the franchise but knowing the DFT they are under pressure to save money and forget the customer.

[gronk the shunter]

Noted that both contestants for wcml are talking of cutting catering and free food in first ,not a good idea when you consider the fares also cutting out the shops ,so what will they put in its place a vending machine that runs out by Watford,progress I dont think.Hope that First keep the franchise but knowing the DFT they are under pressure to save money and forget the customer.

I'm confused, do you mean you hope' first' win the WCML, or that Virgin keep it?

[Xerces Fobe2]

If first instead of Stagecoach went in with Beardy Rail, they could then call it first Great Virgin!

 

XF

[roythebus]

From reading the bus trade press, it would seem that First Group have not been doing too well in many areas of late. The competition Commission have been looking at a number of bus "area" takeovers recently.

 

It makes me wonder why NX are short-listed for anything having effed up the ECML service. But then like the bankers, eff something up and you'll get rewarded handsomely for it.

[caradoc]

Does anyone else feel a twinge of sympathy for Virgin ? Having replaced the entire Cross Country fleet, they lost that franchise, and now after replacing the entire West Coast fleet they might lose that franchise as well !

[Xerces Fobe2]

Does anyone else feel a twinge of sympathy for Virgin ? Having replaced the entire Cross Country fleet, they lost that franchise, and now after replacing the entire West Coast fleet they might lose that franchise as well !

 

No - badly design trains run by a company that was new to railways and has a massive PR machine focused around one person and his wallet!

 

XF

[royaloak]

I dont agree with you very often XF but nail hit squarely on head.

 

I remember all the spin from Beardy about "our train interiors will be designed by our aircraft designers" and look at what we got!

 

But it wasnt all Beardys fault, he wanted 5 and 6 coach trains but, because operation pointless oops I mean princess was upping the frequency on most routes, this was vetoed by DaFT (or whatever they were called then) so we ended up with the 4s and 5s we have now which did not allow for the huge increase in passenger numbers that XC have had.

[Revolution Mike]

Yes, of all the TOCs Virgin have done a pretty good job considering what they had to put up with on the WCML upgrade.

 

For those railing against the Pendolinos (which I don't mind too much) - how much input did Virgin have to the design? Compared to the ROSCO or designer?

[jjb1970]

I don't think Virgin are perfect and can pick many faults with them, but I have to say my experiences on the WCML are way better than any of my experiences on either the GW or ECML in recent years, and if First ("Worst") Group were to take over it'd be a bit of a travesty I think. Using their services between Lonon and Bristol has been a nightmare in recent times whenever I travel, excessively busy trains and meaningless seat reservations, even though if all things being equal I would much prefer to travel in a Mk.3 coach than a Pendolino. Ditto my experiences with the ECML, it drives me nuts when they don't put on the seat reservations then some nut job gets close to physical violence because you've "stolen" their seat and are totally oblivious to the fact that the reservations were never put on and announced as such at KX.

[gronk the shunter]

 

 

I remember all the spin from Beardy about "our train interiors will be designed by our aircraft designers" and look at what we got!

 

 

 

Well they certainly gave us aircraft sized windows on the pendolino!

[JohnR]

Does anyone else feel a twinge of sympathy for Virgin ? Having replaced the entire Cross Country fleet, they lost that franchise, and now after replacing the entire West Coast fleet they might lose that franchise as well !

 

Except they didnt replace the entire cross country fleet. The leasing company bought and paid for them, on the basis that the Government adjusted the premium/subsidy profile to result in the lease payments being met regardless of the performance of the XC franchise. The only responsibility Virgin had for them was the actual design of them, which they cheerfully inflicted on millions of passenger in years to come.

 

Dont get me started on the West Coast line - the same mistakes made there, the same god awful design, the same spin about how Virgin invested billions in modernising the WCML and an extra £1billion on trains (Virgin invested very little money - the taxpayer did - and much of what they DID invest was borrowed). The end result is that anyone of average frame is squeezed into appaling seats, with little or no view of the outside world, and crap wi-fi.

['CHARD]

Yes, of all the TOCs Virgin have done a pretty good job considering what they had to put up with on the WCML upgrade.

 

For those railing against the Pendolinos (which I don't mind too much) - how much input did Virgin have to the design? Compared to the ROSCO or designer?

 

Virgin had a massive input into the styling and passenger environment, albeit they did use intermediary consultants too, I can't recall who just now. At Washwood Heath there was a bespoke office for the Pendo team actually named 'Mission Control' and decorated accordingly, and Virgin had an ongoing presence amongst the Alstom designers in that office. The RoSCo had minimal input.

[Chameleon]

I really can't see how First could be considered for the Great Western franchise. They are the ones who are walking away from the current one early. Funnily enough, just before they were due to start paying £847 million to the treasury over the next three years or so. Does show what a complete farce the whole process is. They've been bitten twice on the East Coast by companies making wildly unrealistic offers. I wouldnt take a bet against them doing it a third time too!

Oh and Branson warned against such unrealistic offers for the East coast. Pot n kettle comes to mind.

Funny how the government run East Coast is doing quite well. Why do they even need to relet the franchise? It's all politics cos they can't possibly show that a public railway can be run as well (or, heaven forbid, better) than a private one.

[The Stationmaster]

Let's not forget that as far as WCML is concerned Master Branson has been up to his usual tricks of stirring the pot about what he claims other bidders are offering and how impossible it will be for them to do what he is saying they are going to do. How close to the truth any of his utterings are, or aren't, is pure guesswork for the vast majority of folk and many, including parts of the media, are happy to believe every word he says because they simply know no different and the Virgin 'brand' has a well established public image.

 

As for First walking away early from the GW franchise let's just get it in perspective - they had an option to take an extra three years and they have chosen not to exercise that option. That would appear to me to be a sensible business decision when looked at against the background of the state of the British economy and the fact that Reading and parts of Paddington - plus bits of railway in between - are more akin to building sites than reliably operable railway and will become ever increasingly so over the next few years.

 

As far as Govt acceptance of bids is concerned DafT should be as capable of working out the numbers as are the bidders although it is understandable that their crystal ball will be an officially approved Treasury version instead of a private enterprise one. Civil Servants have a poor record when it comes to decision making and financial management and that is no doubt at least partly a consequence of political expediency - as in all probability will be decisions about franchise awards.

 

Finally as far as ECML is concerned I am sure that personal experience and views on how good or bad it is vary enormously. As it happens I think it was at its best under Sea Containers/GNER stewardship and I think - from personal experience - that the standard of on-train service and catering has gone downhill since they lost the franchise although on a couple of recent trips the on-train staff were excellent. But 'the offer' is not a patch on Hull Trains - who odd to relate are nowadays part of First Group's rail empire.

[woodenhead]

Didn't First also pull the plug because of the uncertainty over the IEP procurement, scale of electrification etc, forcing an earlier bidding process allows them to make a bid based on such uncertainties.