"FirstGroup ...... frontrunner for west coast rail franchise"

[John M Upton]

Annoyed that yet again the BBC News Channel defaulted to their standard railway 'go to' guy in the form of 'expert' Christian Wolmar who was spouting his usual cobblers earlier this afternoon some of which later in his 'interview' actualy contradicted what he said at the beggining!!

[newbryford]

I seem to get the impression that the anti-VT lobby is (mostly) a smokescreen for anti-Branson sentiments.

 

The media (and others) also keep wheeling out pro/anti Virgin/First arguments for previous franchises such as VT Cross-Country and First North Western Trains (particularly on my local radio/TV). How long is it since FNW disappeared? Over 5 years or so?

Surely the true comparison is between FG GWML and VT WCML over the last 3-4 years or so? Is there anyone that is travelling regularly on both GWML and WCML that can make a true objective observation at passenger level without resorting to personal views on Sir RB and his tax affairs? Similarly can anyone comment who is/has been an employee of both FGW and VT in the last couple of years?

 

Personally I'm going to sit on the fence on this one as I'm not pro or anti VT or First as I'm not a regular traveller. The last major disruption to my rail travel was Grayrigg which was attributed to Network Rail - but that's outside the remit of this thread.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[The Stationmaster]

I think I am right in saying that passengers have an opportunity to tell DfT what they want to see in the new franchise before the tender is sent out?

I think DfT now ask 'stakeholders' for their views as the franchise package is developed - hence Passenger Focus , among others, have the opportunity to submit something.

 

As far as investment in the WCML is concerned I doubt if Virgin has put any more into it than any other holder of the franchise would have and what they did spend would have been a tiny fraction of the total investment made by the UK taxpayer - probably just payment to design agencies for colour schemes and a bit of interior styling and possibly some cash expenditure for train areas to their specific requirement - e.g the shop.

 

Alas Branson talks with a silver tongue and dumbos like Wolmar (who understands very little about the industry) can't see through him. It's probably unfair to expect the vast majority of journos to be able to handle him objectively in an interview although no doubt Paxo or John Humphries could give him a rough trip if they were properly and fully briefed by a good researcher before they started - but how many of the researchers understand what to look for and ask?

 

So the rather pathetic bearded one will continue to moan about having his toys taken away and because of his amazing ability in self-publicity a large and uninformed audience will believe everything he says. Wouldn't it be great if a few home truths about his involvement in the rail industry started to emerge - like one of his 'expert rail team' who suggested running Regional Eurostars from Bristol as it emerged that the northern routes were not going to be a good commercial proposition. Or other members of his rail team who joking loudly among themselves congratulated each other that they now had a trainset of their very own, or the large order for red paint he had to cancel when the French told him that he couldn't repaint Eurostars in 'Virgin livery' and if he thought he could he should have read the international agreements before he ordered the paint (at which point it is said he lost personal interest in Eurostar although that might have been hastened by several other things some senior SNCF figures allegedly said to him).

[The Stationmaster]

 

Surely the true comparison is between FG GWML and VT WCML over the last 3-4 years or so? Is there anyone that is travelling regularly on both GWML and WCML that can make a true objective observation at passenger level without resorting to personal views on Sir RB and his tax affairs? Similarly can anyone comment who is/has been an employee of both FGW and VT in the last couple of years?

Cheers,

Mick

 

My opinion of Branson's involvement in the rail industry has nothing to do with working for either of those companies - as I didn't work for them but I have seen elsewhere and heard from WCML folk some of the things which have accompanied his involvement in rail and I have not been impressed. And don't forget the point is that he is 'fighting' the new franchisee's appointment on a very personal 'I am Mr Virgin' basis - so hardly unfair to criticise him when responding to his behaviour

 

And on a strictly objective note I'm not at all sure if it is valid to compare the WCML with the GWML. The former has been massively and expensively modernised as part of a major investment scheme including new high performance electric trains - its a physically revitalised infrastructure with brand new trains. In contrast the GWML has some signalling which is over 50 years old and really only Paddington had seen total upgrading of signalling and infrastructure, albeit now nearly 20 years ago, until the change of signalling controls associated with the Reading works plus track & signalling works in parts of South Wales in very recent years; and some of its routes still have semaphore signalling while some are single line. Similarly when it comes to trains FGW has had to manage through re-engining a 30 year old, very high mileage, diesel fleet working some of the most intensive diagrams in the world. Oddly in fact I think the GW route has, still, some older trains than the WCML material which Branson was condemning as outdated when Virgin first got the franchise And traffic patterns are also very different - for example relatively few WCML trains call at a station with 40 miles of London which is one of the busiest on their entire route with consequential timetabling and reliability impact.

 

It makes no difference in many respects who is running either of these route - their characteristics and infrastructure have major differences, in fact you could almost say that the only similarity is that both run on British standard gauge track.

[newbryford]

My opinion of Branson's involvement in the rail industry has nothing to do with working for either of those companies - as I didn't work for them but I have seen elsewhere and heard from WCML folk some of the things which have accompanied his involvement in rail and I have not been impressed.

 

Have you an opinion of First's involvement within the rail industry? Are they better or worse than other TOC's? Arriva, NatEx, Serco/Abellio, for example? Passenger satisfaction figures are often bandied about - what about staff satisfaction surveys?

 

 

It makes no difference in many respects who is running either of these route - their characteristics and infrastructure have major differences, in fact you could almost say that the only similarity is that both run on British standard gauge track.

 

Very well put. And therein lies the dilemma for those who criticise/compare VT WCML with other routes and operators. Each franchise has it's own peculiarities. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Going back to my post above, there's no true comparison.

 

I only hope that whoever ends up with the WCML, it doesn't go wrong and I can see the "I told you so" brigade having a field day if it goes belly up with FG.

 

"Hindsight is a science, Foresight is an art."

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Bernard Lamb]

So the rather pathetic bearded one will continue to moan about having his toys taken away and because of his amazing ability in self-publicity a large and uninformed audience will believe everything he says. Wouldn't it be great if a few home truths about his involvement in the rail industry started to emerge - like one of his 'expert rail team' who suggested running Regional Eurostars from Bristol as it emerged that the northern routes were not going to be a good commercial proposition.

I remember seeing a Eurostar at Milton Keynes and being told tht it would soon be possible to go to Paris without changing trains. Yet another example of his unresearched ideas.

Bernard

[JohnR]

 

Alas Branson talks with a silver tongue and dumbos like Wolmar (who understands very little about the industry) can't see through him. It's probably unfair to expect the vast majority of journos to be able to handle him objectively in an interview although no doubt Paxo or John Humphries could give him a rough trip if they were properly and fully briefed by a good researcher before they started - but how many of the researchers understand what to look for and ask?

 

 

I think Wolmar's column in the current issue of Rail is fairly scathing of Branson and the way Virgin have done things. Although Nigel Harris seems to be much more sympathetic.

[Re6/6]

Is there no end to the Bearded One's umbrage?

 

On the radio this morning it was reported from 'an informed source within VT' that if the franchise agreement was confirmed with First, VT would be considering legal action in the form of a judicial enquiry.

 

On BBC's 'Today' programme, Transport Secretary of State Justine Greening IMHO gave quite a good account of herself being very supportive of rail generally, still speaking very forthrightly on HS2. Also against the third runway at Heathrow, despite Naughtie's incessant badgering on a purely hypothetical question...”yes or no minister”...”yes or no”...etc..etc.. as usual with 'news' programme presenters seemingly obsessed with such 'political' questions rather than meaningful practical ones.

 

As far as 'informed reporting' is concerned who are the most respected journos on the rail scene who can be relied upon to report the truth and who's opinions are most valid?

[Ohmisterporter]

As far as 'informed reporting' is concerned who are the most respected journos on the rail scene who can be relied upon to report the truth and who's opinions are most valid?

 

This is very subjective. It is all too easy to listen to 'informed reporters' who say the things the listener wants to hear, at which point he is given the accolade of being right. Conversely if the IR says something contradictory to the listener's view he is labelled an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Very tricky to get this one right IMHO.

 

While we are busy slating RB for his lack of railway knowledge, hands up I am as guilty as anyone, aren't we overlooking the fact that he employed experts to run the business for him? I don't know how many times I heard Chris Green labelled "The best chairman BR never had" and similar sentiments. Perhaps some of our ire should be aimed in his direction for a change.

[Dave47549]

.

[The Stationmaster]

I remember seeing a Eurostar at Milton Keynes and being told tht it would soon be possible to go to Paris without changing trains. Yet another example of his unresearched ideas.

Bernard

The intention of offering a Eurostar service (a very limited one) from Milton Keynes to Paris pre-dated Branson's involvement in the British rail industry by several years. In fact in some respects the opposite happened in regard to Branson as the Eurostar service which would have run that route was cancelled not long after he became involved with Eurostar and his placeman was party to the decision to not introduce that service.

[Dave47549]

.

[The Stationmaster]

Have you an opinion of First's involvement within the rail industry? Are they better or worse than other TOC's? Arriva, NatEx, Serco/Abellio, for example? Passenger satisfaction figures are often bandied about - what about staff satisfaction surveys?

Interesting question that - my only experience with FIrst as a passenger operator has been as a passenger on their trains and it is variable, as follows;-

 

London area suburban on the Western - no better than Thames Trains in terms of revenue protection but in the last year or so a major and long overdue improvement; performance/reliability not bad in my direct experience with reasonable cleanliness and a refurb programme on Turbos.

 

FCC - very limited use but good punctuality and cleanliness (but I did say 'very limited').

 

GWML - I don't like the refurbished HSTs but they're always clean and generally pretty good on punctuality nowadays, consistently good on-train customer service, Travelling Chef service is excellent.

 

First Hull Trains - excellent apart from those abysmal Adelante units (some now back on FGW of course but at least they ride better on the Western).

 

Virgin Cross Country - no better than BR when loco hauled, lot of pizzazz when the Voyagers arrived but level of customer service onboard dropped off fairly quickly not all that long afterwards. My impression is that things are now - since Virgin lost the franchise - far more consistent in terms of onboard customer service and cleanliness has improved due to receiving more carefully thought out enroute cleaning.

 

WCML pre Pendolino - clear drop off in on-train operational staff safety knowledge (I, as a passenger, had to tell a newbie Guard how to recognise a leaking brake pipe!), good job they had experienced Drivers. And cleaning standards declined (not surprising when they'd cut out the folk who previously supervised it).

 

WCML Pendolino/Voyager era - patchy reliability re getting trains (Voyager) up to booked formation, good punctuality, good on-train customer service.

 

First GBRF - commercial in confidence (I have audited some of their operations) so unable to say anything but I get the impression that all the smaller freight operators are working on a very lean and very mean basis and that achievement of good managerial standards depends very much on individuals.

 

Choosing between FGW and WCML for on-train customer service I would say there's very little in it and both are far, far better than the ECML was when it was in NatEX hands although it has improved a little since re-nationalisation and the staff are generally very good. In terms of doing a good operational job when they're up against difficult circumstances I reckon FGW are ahead of Virgin WCML (from the viewpoint of a railway professional). In staff 'satisfaction' terms I've heard far less moaning and griping from folk I know who have or do work for FGW than from folk I know who have worked for Virgin; as an aside a Station Chargeman I have known for a very long time has been allowed to stay on overage by FGW and has been told he can choose when he'd like to finish, he doesn't fancy working for any of the other bidders and has said he'll leave if First don't get the new FGW franchise (one swallow does not of course make a summer). A former member of my staff who works for Arriva has a very low opinion of them and would like to get back to FGW.

 

NatEX - atrocious judging by ECML experience; Arriva patchy and trains on local working not always well resourced (not their fault) or cleaned (partly their fault; Stagecoach SWT - not used much in recent years but no complaints from odd periods of use previously.

 

(reGWML compared with WCML) And therein lies the dilemma for those who criticise/compare VT WCML with other routes and operators. Each franchise has it's own peculiarities. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Going back to my post above, there's no true comparison.

I only hope that whoever ends up with the WCML, it doesn't go wrong and I can see the "I told you so" brigade having a field day if it goes belly up with FG.

"Hindsight is a science, Foresight is an art."

Cheers,

Mick

Agree absolutely. The franchisees do bring in a 'management style' which does gradually seep down and they can emphasise, or de-emphasise various aspects of their operation etc internally and that will impact on what the customer sees. In terms of on-train customer service from a staff pleasantness etc angle I doubt you can put a fag paper between First Group and Virgin - true the nature of the offer will vary a bit but in terms of delivery little difference if any.

 

Management style wise I've had no experience at all of First except through people who work for them - they seem ok. Similarly with Virgin in terms of being the controlling managers - I've not been there but what I hear from those who have is not all that wonderful. I have seen Virgin's rail involvement from a closely peripheral viewpoint and I was distinctly unimpressed, some of the 'bus men seemed to have a far, far better idea of what they were doing and Virgin's much lauded 'commercial expertise' struck me as all smoke and mirrors - it's all about brand and very little else in my experience.

 

Sorry to rabbit but that is just one railwayman's view of some very interesting times and I too hope WCMl will come though ok although whatever happens personally I would be not at all upset to see Branson out of the railway industry.

 

Edit typos

[The Stationmaster]

I'm a huge admirer of Chris' prior work. However, I like to think that everyone is entitled to the odd mistake here & there!

 

For what it's worth, I saw him out & about a good few times during the early part. I don't (personally) think he had much weight & was there more as a 'figurehead' afterwards. I may well be wrong though.

From what I saw and heard you are pretty much on target (but I'm not going to tell you who I heard it from )

[lmsforever]

A very interesting post by The Stationmaster and as they say, he tells it like it is.I have used Virgin WCML on many occasions and can find no fault with them ,on time ,as advertised on board service,freindly staff.FGW only used once, in first class had an excellent experience ,customer service brilliant (traveling chef) ,on time and comfortable seating(first class) all in all enjoyable.The network in Cornwall as good as main line the staff especialy helpful ,and always happy ,had a good chat with a guy at Penzance and he was a good advert for FGW.ECML had misfortune to use once on a return journey to York ,never again coaches dirty,cramped seating ,catering apalling ,this was under Nat Express tenure not surprised they handed the keys back.Think that Chris Green did a good job on NSE at least we got a rebuilt station out of it all and new trains ,now even better under Chiltern ,overall the network was a good idea.Scotrail he laid the basis for today,s network which certainly works and is well used as I have found out on many occasions .As to a journalist you can trust there is only one man ,Roger Ford of Modern Railways fame.He knows whats happenning and can divulge the technical details you need to know and can also cut a swathe through political mutterings ,long may he be there.

[Glorious NSE]

I seem to get the impression that the anti-VT lobby is (mostly) a smokescreen for anti-Branson sentiments.

 

Personally? No. I'm ambivalent on him personally.

What gets my goat here is the rather sleazy tactics.

 

The franchising process is clear and transparent.

All parties had the same rules to follow and were judged on the same set of criteria.

There were (IIRC) 4 in the running, and obviously there can be only one winner.

There is a legal break in the process after the announcement but before signing to allow a proper challenge to be made. (Which the BBC reckons they have just done....at the last minute!)

But all the petty posturing to get the public behind their so-called 'independant' campaign is really sad.

[beast66606]

I said I'd steer clear but I thought I'd post this link anyway, I'm sure I can't be blamed for this ..

 

 

Virgin Trains in West Coast Main Line court action

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19402133

[cunningduck]

So only now, after a few weeks of publicly moaning, blogging and tweeting, do they lodge a legal challenge to the bid...not particularly intelligent given that only a legal challenge should dislodge the franchising process, not a whim of a minister after somebody has tweeted them...

[pete_mcfarlane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigant

 

"Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought, regardless of its merits, solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

[Re6/6]

Is there no end to the Bearded One's umbrage?

 

On the radio this morning it was reported from 'an informed source within VT' that if the franchise agreement was confirmed with First, VT would be considering legal action in the form of a judicial enquiry.

 

For once so called 'informed sources' were right.

 

The sour grapes are going to go on and on.

[Kris]

The sour grapes are going to go on and on.

 

And only benefit the legal profession.

[Ramblin Rich]

I've stayed out of this after starting the thread as I had no real information to impart - unlike several who have made very interesting comments from inside the industry (for which, many thanks)

However, I was rather annoyed with the fact that Jeremy Vine (radio 2 yesterday) gave a personal invitation to Branson to phone in & comment on the issue - but no attempt to get a comment from First group. As said I've no particular knowledge to give me a view as to which is "best" - but hat does strike me as particulary imbalanced. I don't recall any mention of the Stagecoach ownership either....

[JohnR]

http://en.wikipedia....atious_litigant

 

"Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought, regardless of its merits, solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

 

I seem to recall him being called that when he tried a judicial review on the award of the national lottery to camelot instead of himself.

[Ron Ron Ron]

We are all forgetting some recent history.

 

Virgin and the DafT were involved in what became an acrimonious dispute over the 11-car Pendolino lengthening programme.

The origin of the dispute was over funding, the number of train sets to be extended and the terms on which it was carried out.

 

The DafT would only approve the lengthening of 31 sets, in addition to the extra all new 11-car sets.

Virgin offered to fund the extension of the remaining sets in exchange for a significant extension to the franchise period, but the DafT completely opposed this and rejected any deal.

At the time it was reported that the DafT had fallen out "big time" with Virgin and the relationship was not good.

 

On top of this, the DafT ordered that the new carriages and the 4 new sets (including the one ordered to replace the set written-off at Grayrigg) would have to go into storage when delivered, until the end of the franchise period. Virgin would be refused use of them.

Remember that fiasco?

 

With the politicians and press taking the DafT to task over this embarrassment, the DafT seem to have become more embittered.

Finally a deal was brokered for the introduction of the new carriages and full sets, with Virgin on a management contract to oversee the programme being carried out. You could sense the DafT agreeing this through "gritted teeth".

 

Conspiracy theories abound, but I suspect more than a few people would have bet that there was no way Virgin were going to retain the WCML if the DafT had anything to do with it. Sealed blind bids or not !

[jjb1970]

I think this thread is just as polarised as a lot of the attitudes being criticised within it. Does RB say a lot of dumb things? Is he a manipulative self promoter? Has he managed his financial affairs to avoid tax very efficiently? Yes to all of it. Are Virgin trains perfect and a shining example? No, and I really do get fed up of RB's attempts to belittle BR. Equally, they are far, far from the worst franchise, on the whole I have been pretty well served by them when travelling, the service has seen improvements and whether enthusiasts like it or not RB did make his trains pretty trendy with a lot more people than before and did a lot of very successful marketing. Those at both extremes of the argument (the RB fanboys in the media and outside) and those who see nothing but negatives about RB are both far from a balanced appraisal I think. No offence intended.