"FirstGroup ...... frontrunner for west coast rail franchise"

[Guest Phil]

A question to the floor of this (very (polarised) debate,

 

Is there still a regulated standard charge per mile for rail travel (as there was in bygone BR days) or do the TOCs rob the customers / passengers now charge whatever they can get away with. ?

 

I gave up selling ticketry 32 years ago so am not the right person to answer your question Derek, but I think there is a sort of two tier operation. I think there is a kind of national fares structure which applies across all regulated rail travel, then l think there are TOC only offerings. I hope someone with more knowledge can confirm that.

[pete_mcfarlane]

They were perhaps looking to a semi-uniform standardised fleet of EMUs across the franchise?

That did occur to me, but by standardising their EMU fleet they'd introduce the extra complexity of the push-pull locos and getting them and the EMUs to interface with each other. That sounds far trickier, and a bigger source of operational problems, than keeping a second fleet of units. Some of the earlier posts did say that Virgin's engineering knowledge was a bit patchy.

['CHARD]

That did occur to me, but by standardising their EMU fleet they'd introduce the extra complexity of the push-pull locos and getting them and the EMUs to interface with each other. That sounds far trickier, and a bigger source of operational problems, than keeping a second fleet of units. Some of the earlier posts did say that Virgin's engineering knowledge was a bit patchy.

 

Virgin's engineering knowhow was pretty much 90% outsourced.

[Richard E]

A question to the floor of this (very (polarised) debate,

 

Is there still a regulated standard charge per mile for rail travel (as there was in bygone BR days) or do the TOCs rob the customers / passengers now charge whatever they can get away with. ?

this is now very complex but basically some fares are regulated (commuter, peak time and season tickets) whilst others, including ALL First Class travel, are not.

 

It seems fares are not based upon a rate per mile according to the document linked below. It takes 8 pages of that document (14 to 22) to describe which fares are regulated and which are not, there is also a table on page 102 that is rather more useful in paraphrasing the rules ...

 

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-09/main-document.pdf

[newbryford]

A question to the floor of this (very (polarised) debate,

 

 

Tongue in cheek mode and flameproof suit at the ready................

 

What would you rather have?

 

A draughty Mk1 with dubious steam heating with a 31 up front pushing 75mph on a good day, not entrirely sure if it'll make the journey,

 

or a Voyager and air conditioning running up to 125mph with a few more people on board?

 

Rush-hour commuters are not allowed to answer, as they've never been happy with what they've got/not got.

 

Before you answer, decide if you are either:

 

a: a trainspotter living in the past, who still believes in "Railtour Standard Time"

 

or

b: a member of the general public that wants to get home mostly ontime with a degree of comfort.

 

 

If we carry on with the "bring back BR" at this rate, how long before we have a "bring back the LMS/LNER/GWR/SR"? Oh look, we're back to the privatised system again with largely local monopolies........................

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Xerces Fobe2]

[quote name='newbryford' timestamp='1346940206' post='778696'

If we carry on with the "bring back BR" at this rate, how long before we have a "bring back the LMS/LNER/GWR/SR"? Oh look, we're back to the privatised system again with largely local monopolies........................

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

I would go for either of these options given that it would be better than the mess we currently have!

 

XF

[gronk the shunter]

 

 

Tongue in cheek mode and flameproof suit at the ready................

 

What would you rather have?

 

A draughty Mk1 with dubious steam heating with a 31 up front pushing 75mph on a good day, not entrirely sure if it'll make the journey,

 

or a Voyager and air conditioning running up to 125mph with a few more people on board?

 

Rush-hour commuters are not allowed to answer, as they've never been happy with what they've got/not got.

 

Before you answer, decide if you are either:

 

a: a trainspotter living in the past, who still believes in "Railtour Standard Time"

 

or

b: a member of the general public that wants to get home mostly ontime with a degree of comfort.

 

 

If we carry on with the "bring back BR" at this rate, how long before we have a "bring back the LMS/LNER/GWR/SR"? Oh look, we're back to the privatised system again with largely local monopolies........................

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Bring back the LMS? Pah! They were terrible couldn't run a railway to save their life.... No it all went wrong so long ago..... Bring back the Grand Junction Railway now they knew what they were doing!!!

[petethemole]

What would you rather have?

 

A draughty Mk1 with dubious steam heating with a 31 up front pushing 75mph on a good day, not entrirely sure if it'll make the journey,

 

or a Voyager and air conditioning running up to 125mph with a few more people on board?

 

The former has more likely been replaced by an overcrowded 158. In this neck of the woods on the XC services ("interCity Cross Country") from Poole the Voyagers replaced HS125s and class 47 hauled Mk3s or late Mk2s. Also more of the trains ran through to the North and Scotland, rather than having to change at BNS. But now there's WiFi and shouty quiet coaches, so that's OK, and there's no more curled up sandwiches. The fastest trains from Waterloo to Soton take about 10 minutes longer. I actually miss Mk1s; compartment stock was nowhere as draughty as open.

Pete

[andy stroud]

 

 

What would you rather have?

 

A draughty Mk1 with dubious steam heating with a 31 up front pushing 75mph on a good day, not entrirely sure if it'll make the journey,

 

or a Voyager and air conditioning running up to 125mph with a few more people on board?

 

Rush-hour commuters are not allowed to answer, as they've never been happy with what they've got/not got.

 

Before you answer, decide if you are either:

 

a: a trainspotter living in the past, who still believes in "Railtour Standard Time"

 

or

b: a member of the general public that wants to get home mostly ontime with a degree of comfort.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

So you dont think that the 1950's vintage class 31 and mark one coaches would have been replaced in service by now if the railways hadn't been privatised? There were ongoing improvements under BR including introduction of Mk 2 and Mk 3 air conditioned stock which the wonderful privatised railway hasn't managed to better yet.

[John M Upton]

West Coast to be nationalised in the interim until the legal arguments are sorted out:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/uks-west-coast-rail-franchise-nationalised-paper-110359879--finance.html

So presumably we can look forward to not one lot of vinyl being applied to the Pendolinos but two!!!

 

This is of course according to one report in The Sunday Times so treat it with a very large dollop of salt...

[Glorious NSE]

Looks like they are having that as a contingency in case the legal side is not quickly dealt with - I'd suggest a quick de-brand would be adequate for a short term delay.

[jjb1970]

As others have said, the old set of Mk.1 stock behind a tired old diesel was already pretty much a thing of the past when BR was privatised so isn't a valid comparison. BR pumped a lot of money into modernising provincial services and the inter-city fleet actually had very good equipment when sold off. I'm not opposed to privatisation per se, however neither am I a particular advocate of privatisation. What I want is reliable, value for money train services that are pleasant to use, some private operators do a pretty job I think (and despite what I think of RB, I am not a big critic of Virgin Trains) but some are not very good at all. In that they're not that much difference from BR as there was always a bit of a travel equivalent of the proverbial post code lottery on BR too.

[pete_mcfarlane]

West Coast to be nationalised in the interim until the legal arguments are sorted out:

http://uk.news.yahoo...9--finance.html

So presumably we can look forward to not one lot of vinyl being applied to the Pendolinos but two!!!

 

This is of course according to one report in The Sunday Times so treat it with a very large dollop of salt...

It makes sense though - the Government is unlikely to grant Virgin a temporary extension of their current fanchise if the delays caused by Virgin's legal action stop First taking over in time.

 

Virgin Trains, a joint venture of entrepreneur Richard Branson's Virgin Group and trains and buses operator Stagecoach, could not be reached for comment

That makes a refeshing change (or is it because the matter is sub judice and they are legally obliged to keep their mouths shut).

[Kris]

I wonder how much extra this will cost and if Virgin loose will they have to cover these costs rather than the tax payer?

[lmsforever]

Govt have said Beardie,s challenge will not slow down the handover,do they know something we dont? Beardie air are talking to the Scottish Govt about flying Edinborough /Glasgow to London, realy got the knife into rail now .

[frobisher]

I wonder how much extra this will cost and if Virgin loose will they have to cover these costs rather than the tax payer?

 

Sounds like something the tax payer should cover to be honest. To argue anything else would set a very bad precident.

 

As it stands, isn't the franchise currently profitable for Virgin and the you would presume that the nationalised franchise would just continue as was until handover to the eventual winner, so in theory it shouldn't cost anymore than the current state of affairs and in theory it should cost a bit less (as it would effectively be run "at cost")?

[andy stroud]

Why should the "taxpayer" - thats me and thee - cover anything?

 

Its probably a bit * I can count to mmmmm" but Im pretty sure that the Southern English tax payer pays for most of our stuff as it is.....

All part and parcel of the wonderful privatised railway system that's much better than BR used to be. Why waste money on silly things like new trains when you can pay for things like legal disputes instead.

[andy stroud]

I know its better than BR*, there is no need to tell me again

Its just a shame that VT cant face up to the possibility than First Group may jsut have offered a better bid.......Then again I dont think VT ( or any of the Vigin "brands") do anything wrong...well at least not in thier own eyes

 

 

* As a punter it is certainly better, Im not so sure it is "from the inside" but its half a lifetime since BR existed so perhaps I got the RosyTinted Binz on there

 

You keep on about how long it has been since BR finished. But since the end of BR there have been endless changes to the set-up. Chopping and changing companies/ railtrack network rail/ reorganising areas of operation/ changing franchises/ colour schemes/ legal disputes/ handing back the keys/ etc.. and yet they still carry on, bungling on. Whilst bits and pieces here and there might be very nice, especially if you can afford to travel first class, overall, to me anyway, it seems a complete mess and more of a vehicle for certain individuals and companies to make money rather than simply being an affordable, comfortable public service, as it used to be.

[andy stroud]

Isnt it a fact though that the railways are not a public service? They are a means to get from A to B...or in my case from A to Z ?

 

 

The railway needs to be a public service, both for those that use it and also for those people who dont. On the thankfully rare occasions when there were complete shutdowns on BR due to strike action, in many parts of the country, the remaining transport infrastructure (mainly roads) was unable to cope and many people were advised to stay at home and not travel to work. That surely suggests that it should be regarded as a much needed public service, for everybody.

 

Id expect to pay good money to travel from one end of the country to the other if I went by any other mode so I expect to pay a lot to go by train too

 

Over 35 years ago, BR introduced Mk 3 coaching stock and these are still considered to be an excellent means of travel. I believe that if the same basic organisation had been allowed to continue in operation, unhindered by government, adequately financed, they would have continued to make great developments ( with the assistance of a railway research department) and today you would be traveling from your A to Z in at least as good conditions, and more likely better than the new trains we have today. And I would imagine you would not be having to part with as much money to do so.

[Adam1701D]

There's speculation that the franchise may get handed to Directly Operated Railways, the govt. owned operator of East Coast, while the whole debacle is sorted out.

[Re6/6]

Listening to the editor of 'Railnews' Sim Harris and another from the rail publishing world on the radio this morning, it was pointed out that if Virgin's application for a judicial revue is successful it will throw the whole franchising procedure used into chaos, all to the full cost of the taxpayer. This could be the possible consequences of Branson's petulance.

[dave_long]

Its not just beardie being annoyed at losing, first have over bid by such a degree that its seems very unlikely that they would be able to fulfill those payments for the whole term. So pay for legal costs now or pay to run a franchise when first have defaulted on the deal?

I don't really care for virgin but First IMO will fail just like East coast.

[beast66606]

Its not just beardie being annoyed at losing, first have over bid by such a degree that its seems very unlikely that they would be able to fulfill those payments for the whole term. So pay for legal costs now or pay to run a franchise when first have defaulted on the deal?

I don't really care for virgin but First IMO will fail just like East coast.

 

Whilst we may think they are going to fail, they have to be allowed to do so, assuming that the due diligence has not thrown up any obvious issues, their business case must be compelling for it to be accepted, not even politicos are stupid enough to put a supplier in place knowing they will fail immediately, and if they run it successfully for the next say 10 years then that's probably fulfilled the politico agenda anyway, everyone will have moved on by then, maybe even SRB.

 

It's always easy to spend money when it's not your own ...

[Xerces Fobe2]

The latest edition of Private Eye has a whole page dedicated "Signal Failures Special" on the first/Beardie WCML debacle which is well researched well worth a read!

 

XF

[Coach bogie]

On the Great Western Franchise the DFT have just increased from 60% to 100% the performance bond, season ticket bond and subordinated loan facility required by the succesful bidder, a nice contribution to the flawed tender arguement, with the DFT rewriting the tender document this late in the process. The WCML franchise has a figure of 60% at present. Arguements now emerging that the subordinated loan facility is way too low - if the same process used as in the Great western franchise was applied the the WCML franchise, the SLF figure would be risk assessed much higher, closer to £600m rather than the £190 Justine Greening was asking for. Using the current agreed risk assessment, If the bond is increased to 100% then First will need to find to secure a further £135m in a hurry.

 

Interesting times

 

Mike Wiltshire