"FirstGroup ...... frontrunner for west coast rail franchise"

[Guest]

Reading the links David supplied I'm afraid I came up with a different view that the fault lay with DSB and that First were wanting to cut them adrift but had been asked by DSB to wait until the latter could sort out their financial woes.

 

My apologies, I see what you're saying now. We're actually talking at cross-purposes. FirstGroup did indeed try to walk away from the agreement and the DSB side tried to stop it so that it could get its house in order. And DSBFirst were indeed given an extra two weeks to present its financial case. Two separate issues.

 

We're getting seriously off-topic here but, you know, I've just had an interesting thought. That DSBFirst received an illegal subsidy from DSB is not in question. But why did this involve the only company/franchise/call-it-what-you-will in the whole country that involved FirstGroup?

[Captain Kernow]

Having suffered for years at the hands of Worst Greed Western, God forbid that this shower is allowed to get anywhere NEAR a railway franchise EVER again.

This simply isn't a valid statement. Wherever you are travelling to and from, David Elvar, I suspect that any other TOC would have given you a very similar experience.

 

I speak as I find, and that is that FGW have worked absolute wonders in terms of getting hold of additional rolling stock, to provide more capacity over and above the basic franchise specification. This is, of course, in response to customer demand. Consider this - the number of units available to FGW (West) has increased by almost 50% over the life of the franchise. They are extremely cute in terms of spotting opportunities to persuade the DfT to allow them additional rolling stock, of which there is simply not enough to go around.

 

Where FGW also win hands down, is the way they are prepared to engage with local stakeholders, branch line user groups, passenger groups, local authorities and the like. I know this because I see it in a professional capacity on a very frequent basis (no, I don't work for FGW).

 

Whilst acknowledging that all operators sometimes get it wrong, I am fed up with seeing FGW bashed by those who do not appear to be considering the bigger picture.

 

 

To provide more seats. A shop is useless if you carn't get to it because the isles are blocked by standing passengers.

 

Again, I speak as I find. I travel on Voyagers almost every working day to and from work. In terms of operational performance, timekeeping, accelleration etc., the Voyager is a good train. They normally run on time these days, even the longest journeys from Scotland to the South West.

 

The toilet issue has been discussed already, but as regards the shop/trolley argument, what happens in reality is what I and others expected to happen, when the shops were withdrawn:

 

- some trolley stewards (Retail Service Managers) are very diligent and make frequent 'passes' through the train

- some, however, lodge themselves at the First Class end and spend appreciable chunks of the journey nattering with their mates (to the extent that it has become relatively normal to see Standard class ticket holders trooping through to the end of the First Class to ask 'when the trolley is going to come through' or 'can they buy a cup of coffee, please'

- some will try to get through a busy train, 'no matter what'

- on a busier train, however, it is becoming more common for the trolley to be positioned at a fixed point in the train, and for the Retail Service Manager to announce it's location and to operate it as if it were a fixed shop. Thus the stated advantages of a trolley evaporate and you are left with a fixed retail service, which actually offers less in terms of product options and (in effect) customer service as compared with a shop.

 

Personally, I like to be in control of when I get refreshments, and I always appreciated knowing that the shops in the Voyagers were there. Waiting for a trolley to come through is a bit like waiting for a number 7 bus, it may come soon, or it may not..... (or you can get off your backside and go in search of it!)...

[Re6/6]

Going a little OT, heaven forbid if FGW don't retain their GW franchise. As a retired railwayman I've been able to compare TOCs having travelled with most of them. Since certain higher management changes a few years ago FGW have certainly got a lot of it right. I would feel very apprehensive for the level of service in our local area if any prospect of XC or DBSchenker/Arriva were to gain the franchise.

 

I do really miss WT though.

[Guest]

This simply isn't a valid statement. Wherever you are travelling to and from, David Elvar, I suspect that any other TOC would have given you a very similar experience.

 

Really?

 

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2008/01/bring_back_british_rail_all_is.html

 

Yes, that Sunday Times article was from 2008. Here's a newer one, from Wales Online:

 

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/03/22/first-great-western-worst-performing-long-distance-trains-in-uk-says-which-91466-30602320/

 

I last had the privilege of travelling FGW when I was last in England. That was in 2009. If as you say, things have improved, could it be because they couldn't have got any worse? Let's not forget that this is the TOC that was threatened with losing its franchise. It could only improve. By the way, before I left for these shores, I was quite widely travelled in England. Virgin were okay but their Voyagers were a little cramped. GNER I quite liked - why they lost that one I would really like to know. I've covered most of the southern lines without complaint. Sorry but I remain unconvinced. If as you say, things have improved then fine: I'll be glad to make my feelings known on this forum when next I have the pleasure of travelling with them.

 

FirstGroup has come in for a lot of criticism in the past, and deservedly so. They consistently underbid for a contract and then cut services and staff to the bone in order to meet the terms. This is the danger threatening West Coast. I repeat, God forbid that they get even a sniff of this franchise.

[Orion]

 

I last had the privilege of travelling FGW when I was last in England. That was in 2009.

 

God forbid that they get even a sniff of this franchise.

 

 

3 years ago, live abroad and not a regular user by the sound of things?

 

As God seems to have allowed them to run his own wonderful railway then why would he have any objection to them bidding for the West Coast franchise as well

[The Stationmaster]

This simply isn't a valid statement. Wherever you are travelling to and from, David Elvar, I suspect that any other TOC would have given you a very similar experience.

 

I speak as I find, and that is that FGW have worked absolute wonders in terms of getting hold of additional rolling stock, to provide more capacity over and above the basic franchise specification. This is, of course, in response to customer demand. Consider this - the number of units available to FGW (West) has increased by almost 50% over the life of the franchise. They are extremely cute in terms of spotting opportunities to persuade the DfT to allow them additional rolling stock, of which there is simply not enough to go around. (and snipped)

 

 

I think that's a very fair view Cap'n, especially as it's from inside the fence. I would also add that they are now genuinely trying to tackle the fare-dodging problems in the London area and have recruited at least 15 additional TTIs (or whatever they are called now).

 

I think it is always very easy to form judgements about franchisees from a very limited, albeit direct and intensely personal, viewpoint without necessarily even knowing of let alone considering wider issues. I have never had an issue with FGW train cleanliness - it's as good as the travelling public allow it to be, some trains were getting tired but that is a much bigger issue than a TOC or franchise and applies over most of them at different times. And punctuality and reliability has never hit me on my journeys (although NR equipment failures have ) with the exception of one SPAD. Overall I don't think FGW are too bad and they are definitely tackling the biggest shortcoming in our neck of the woods which is revenue protection.

 

Now compare them with others - well the Virgin offer on Cross-Country didn't last too long at its original level and what you get now from Arriva isn't much different on longer journeys. Yes the trains are often short of accommodation but the blame for that lies as much with DafT as elsewhere, the TOCs can only work with what they are allowed to work with although at least FGW have shown some enterprise is chipping at that particular mould. East Coast - as I've said before - have gradually gone downhill since GNER lost the franchise (which was due to a Sea Containers group problem, not the way they were running the franchise) although current situation is a bit better than when NatEx were trying their hand at making a mess of things.

 

Virgin probably rightly lost the Cross Country franchise, I got the impression they went off the boil after over-egging it cost wise in the early days of Voyagers. Typical Virgin in my view as they did exactly the same on WCML and only survived by getting in Stagecoach to inject cash (and perhaps management skills?? - that wouldn't surprise me one bit if they did).

 

So yes - there's good & bad in all the franchises but some are doing quite a good job within the strict reins of their contracts and the latest daft ideas from DafT.

 

(Oh - and I did once work for a TOC but not any of those I have mentioned).

[Richard E]

GNER lost the ECML franchise because their parent company, Sea Containers, was in financial trouble.

 

I have been told but cannot substantiate it, that Sea Containers were caught out 'borrowing' the franchise bond overnight to shore up their bank account overnight.

[asmay2002]

Personally I will be dancing on the grave of Virgin Trains. The worst travel experiences I have had have all been with Virgin.

[The Stationmaster]

Really?

 

http://www.rmtbristo...ail_all_is.html

 

Yes, that Sunday Times article was from 2008. Here's a newer one, from Wales Online:

 

http://www.walesonli...91466-30602320/

 

 

I'm left wondering what any of those links actually says about FGW? The first seems to be entirely a criticism of fare levels - so that is a direct criticism of Govt policy, end of story. Govt policy decides how TOCs can or can't adjust their fares - full stop. And don't overlook the source and the thrust of the 'argument' therein - hardly unbiased.

 

The second is similar and lacking in objective fact relating to FGW. I quite agree that some FGW services get very overcrowded but what exactly can they do about it (apart from some things they have since done which are well outside the normal way franchisees behave as it happens) they are as good as given a timetable and train fleet and told to get on with it - they can't really run any more trains in the peak than their fleet size and line capacity allow and they can't lengthen them because there are no vehicles available, to get round those sort of hurdles you need to get pretty creative, which they since have to some extent.

 

As far as punctuality is concerned I know the passenger only sees the TOC as 'the railway' but delays often extend far beyond the TOC's remit and of course a Joint NR/FGW effort has been put into route reliability improvements with some effect and although renewals have since taken place a lot of the signalling on the route is over 40 years old and some of it is 50 years old. As ever the press like shouting but are pretty short when it comes to objective fact - but that has been the railwayman's lot since Mr Punch published his first cartoons involving trains; and I doubt it will ever change.

[Guest]

3 years ago, live abroad and not a regular user by the sound of things?

 

Used to be. And I still have family there who are still very regular travellers. Does that count?

[Guest]

As ever the press like shouting but are pretty short when it comes to objective fact - but that has been the railwayman's lot since Mr Punch published his first cartoons involving trains; and I doubt it will ever change.

 

Well, there I have to agree with you. But much of what is read is not confined to the press. I understand the unions aren't happy with this one (yeah, yeah, when are they ever?), and there are mutterings about legal challenges to the bid, so it will be interesting to see what happens next.

 

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one and wait on events. A lot of people on this forum seem happy with the FirstGroup bid. I'm not. But I'm willing to let history prove which of us is right.

[Glorious NSE]

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one and wait on events. A lot of people on this forum seem happy with the FirstGroup bid. I'm not. But I'm willing to let history prove which of us is right.

 

I'm very happy with how FGW has ended up (the initial couple of years of the current franchise was a debacle down here but they have worked very hard at it since) - my worry with this announcement is if First win West Coast does it mean they are likely to have not won Greater Western.

[The Stationmaster]

Well, there I have to agree with you. But much of what is read is not confined to the press. I understand the unions aren't happy with this one (yeah, yeah, when are they ever?), and there are mutterings about legal challenges to the bid, so it will be interesting to see what happens next.

 

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one and wait on events. A lot of people on this forum seem happy with the FirstGroup bid. I'm not. But I'm willing to let history prove which of us is right.

 

While we can indeed agree to disagree some of the things surrounding this bid are pure theatre and little else. Crow will shout about job threats because that is partly what he's paid to do and it's what he likes doing for political reasons (even if there aren't any threats to jobs); Branson's blathering and mithering is exactly that - it's a typical Branson tactic which he seems to think works and makes him out to be a goodie (which he certainly isn't when it comes to UK rail but that's another story) and a man of principle.

 

But as yet none of us, not even Branson or Bob Crow, know the outcome of the bid process and the announcement has been 'delayed' (possibly to separate it from the announcement today regarding fare increases? or for some other reason).

[ForestPines]

I used to be a semi-regular First Transpennine traveller. Now, I'm a daily FGW commuter, in the Bristol area. In my experience, the level of customer service on FGW is much worse than it was on Transpennine.

 

Now, I do admit, most of their stock is at least half-decent, although they still don't have enough of it: a 150 with 3+2 seating gets very crowded when it is so full that people have to try to stand in the narrow aisles. The fare regime in the Bristol area is good, but helped by the fact that they receive an additional subsidy from the city council (who started making noises about micro-franchising at one point). They do pay attention to local conditions to some extent - trains with lots of school pupils commuting get extra carriages during term time, for example.

 

However - with a few honourable exceptions of course - their customer service levels, at least in this area, are awful. Being a regular passenger I recognise most of the station staff and the on-train staff for the local trains by sight - on the part of my commute that takes me on an HST, I think I see a member of the staff about once a month on average. It's fair to say that apart from buying tickets and showing them most of my interactions with the staff come when something has gone wrong - when my ticket stops working the barriers, for example; when a train has been dispatched early (only an occasional one, to be fair) or when I've been sold a different ticket to the one I asked for. I'd say that I'm a friendly and polite person even in those sort of circumstances; but even so the responses I've got from FGW staff, when I've had a problem I've needed to raise with them, have been universally unhelpful. "That's that" is the general tone of their behaviour.

 

FGW trains are horribly overcrowded a lot of the time, as I said above. I think they wouldn't get such a bad reputation if they were just horribly overcrowded - but the problem is that they also have staff on the ground who present a very bad face to the public. As I said, there are honourable exceptions; but sadly in most people's minds, the bad experiences are always going to outweigh the good ones. And as it's the front-line customer service that is their main issue, I do doubt how much a change of franchisee will make a difference.

 

On another topic raised above, that of the line becoming a building site: I heard on the local gardening grapevine recently that the garden centre which occupies the former main line trackbed at Stapleton Road station has been given notice to quit part of its site, with a note that they will lose their site entirely within the next two years. So presumably that's the timescale for the requadrupling of Dr Day's-Filton.

[ForestPines]

Branson's blathering and mithering is exactly that - it's a typical Branson tactic which he seems to think works and makes him out to be a goodie (which he certainly isn't when it comes to UK rail but that's another story) and a man of principle.

 

A cynic writes: I feel sometimes the main involvement RB actually has with the TOC is that the PR department give him a call when they want to get something placed in the press, and that's it!

[Guest]

While we can indeed agree to disagree some of the things surrounding this bid are pure theatre and little else. Crow will shout about job threats because that is partly what he's paid to do and it's what he likes doing for political reasons (even if there aren't any threats to jobs); Branson's blathering and mithering is exactly that - it's a typical Branson tactic which he seems to think works and makes him out to be a goodie (which he certainly isn't when it comes to UK rail but that's another story) and a man of principle.

 

But as yet none of us, not even Branson or Bob Crow, know the outcome of the bid process and the announcement has been 'delayed' (possibly to separate it from the announcement today regarding fare increases? or for some other reason).

 

Good points, all. Can't disagree with any of that.

[Captain Kernow]

3 years ago, live abroad and not a regular user by the sound of things?

Well, that's answered my question. I appreciate you have family over here who also use the trains, David, but one wonders (rhetorically and with all due respect) how often that is and how objective the feedback to you is? Many subjective views have been expressed about FGW (including much of the content two links you quoted, one of which dates from 2008), and there is an awful lot of subjectivity in them, too. What you have to bear in mind is that for every disgruntled passenger, who expresses a view, there are also those who are very happy with the service they are getting. I travel frequently on FGW (as well as XC), and there is no doubt that they have sharpened their act up a great deal over the course of this franchise. I speak to all kinds of people in the local TOCs at different levels, and there is a very widespread desire and enthusiasm to deliver a good service to the public, a very positive ethos.

 

I am also commenting from a position within the industry (which I have worked in for over 30 years) and pretty close to all the operators working in a defined geographical area. I have seen facts and figures that show how good these operators actually are, as measured against specific benchmarks. I correspond and speak to TOC customers and stakeholders, sometimes on a daily basis, and receive their feedback on how they think the TOC concerned is doing (not in terms of breaching confidences, before anyone gets concerned, all legitimate stuff). I can only speak as I find, because for me the data tells me the true story.

 

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one and wait on events. A lot of people on this forum seem happy with the FirstGroup bid. I'm not. But I'm willing to let history prove which of us is right.

Yes, perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this one. But how long do we have to wait before we get the final, authoritiative verdict on FGW from 'history?' (note, not referring to the First Group bid for West Coast - I am responding to various criticisms about FGW).

[Adrock]

Funnily enough, I'm sitting reading this on a Virgin train that's just had to reverse back up the line because the driver forgot to stop at Nuneaton! All a little strange when he announced it, saying that we could call him any name we wanted to. I suppose this kind of thing could happen on any service, but as a regular West Coast traveller its nothing that has ever happened to me before. I actually enjoy travelling with Virgin and think they do a great job on the franchise.

[Guest]

Well, that's answered my question. I appreciate you have family over here who also use the trains, David, but one wonders (rhetorically and with all due respect) how often that is and how objective the feedback to you is?

 

Thank you for your comprehensive and well-formulated reply, cap'n. (I'm new around here, do I have to salute?)

 

I take your point about objectivity. I get comments from family and friends, mainly because they know of my interest in all things railway, and those comments are, by and large, pretty damning. We lived through the worst excesses of FGW right from the start, and I'm sure you will agree that it is much more difficult to regain lost ground than to advance from a starting position. I have been on trains (three times, to be precise) at Reading that departed some 20 minutes late because the driver had been "mislaid". That's right, they didn't know where he was. With reference to the West Coast, I'm just waiting for a financial analysis of this bid. I'm sure it will make interesting reading.

 

I don't understand the problem with posting something dating from 2008. I also posted something from this year, the two links appearing to show that nothing had changed. I have every respect for the average railway worker: they are indeed a dedicated and professional body of people undeserved of the criticism often levelled at them for things that are out of their control. The problem I have is with the management. Privatisation was a mistake. The railways are now getting, what, three times the subsidy they ever did in the days of BR? It's been a fiasco, and to see FirstGroup making what at first sight appears to be an unsustainable bid is just symptomatic of all that is wrong with the whole process of running the railways. And having seen the hugely complex foul-up (which even led to some confusion on this forum, for which I again apologise) of the Øresund Link and involving the same company, well, I'm sure I can be forgiven a slightly jaundiced view. Let us hope that things work out but I do, I really do, have to doubt it.

 

My thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion. I have enjoyed it, not least the courtesy that has prevailed even when things got a little heated.

[Captain Kernow]

Now, I'm a daily FGW commuter, in the Bristol area. In my experience, the level of customer service on FGW is much worse than it was on Transpennine.

 

Now, I do admit, most of their stock is at least half-decent, although they still don't have enough of it: a 150 with 3+2 seating gets very crowded when it is so full that people have to try to stand in the narrow aisles.

So first of all, that's a compliment! (you say the stock is 'half-decent', but you should have seen the condition of some of the units they have inherited..

 

As for not having enough of it, well that's hardly their fault. The DfT has a tight grip on what (little) rolling stock might laughingly be called spare. As I said in a previous post, through the strenuous efforts of some of the FGW senior team, they have managed to increase the number of units for FGW (West) by almost 50%. If that doesn't show a committment to try to deal with the almost insuperable problems of overcrowding in their particular parts of the network, I don't know what does!

 

The fare regime in the Bristol area is good

 

Great, another compliment!

 

but helped by the fact that they receive an additional subsidy from the city council.

FGW has a high level of engagement with local authorities, as one might expect of any TOC, so one way to interpret the presence of a subsidy is the fact that relationships at that level are good

 

(who started making noises about micro-franchising at one point)

Political posturing, as far as I believe.

 

They do pay attention to local conditions to some extent - trains with lots of school pupils commuting get extra carriages during term time, for example.

Hey - another compliment!

 

However - with a few honourable exceptions of course - their customer service levels, at least in this area, are awful. Being a regular passenger I recognise most of the station staff and the on-train staff for the local trains by sight - on the part of my commute that takes me on an HST, I think I see a member of the staff about once a month on average. It's fair to say that apart from buying tickets and showing them most of my interactions with the staff come when something has gone wrong - when my ticket stops working the barriers, for example; when a train has been dispatched early (only an occasional one, to be fair) or when I've been sold a different ticket to the one I asked for. I'd say that I'm a friendly and polite person even in those sort of circumstances; but even so the responses I've got from FGW staff, when I've had a problem I've needed to raise with them, have been universally unhelpful. "That's that" is the general tone of their behaviour.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen poor examples of how to treat passengers in my time.

 

Bristol TM in particular is an extremely busy station, and part of the 'issue' you describe, I believe, is the fact that there are now ticket barriers there, as there are in many of their other stations. There is a reason for that, of course, which is the committment to reduce fare evasion and fraud. I haven't seen the figures for Bristol since they've been there, but I know that they have been spectacularly successful in Devon and Cornwall (even though I don't think that they have quite yet sorted out the issue of how to deal with those who simply want a 'platform ticket'...)

 

But... I think we also have to ask the question - what would a different TOC do in Bristol? For starters, they would almost certainly inherit the same staff, the same trainers and (initially) the same training procedures.

 

Also, you do need to think about some of the less savoury characters that ticket barrier staff have to deal with (just like on-train staff). It seems that many portions of 'Society' are becoming more aggressive, more selfish and consequently more unpleasant. Most people can simply walk away from situations that they don't like, but TOC staff such as those on ticket barriers and on-train staff cannot easily do this, moreover, it is arguably their job to deal with it (up to the point that it becomes the BTP's job, I guess). Now this doesn't excuse rudeness to nice, polite people like you, but it does perhaps give a bit more context?

 

I suspect there are many more large urban stations where you'll encounter a similar proportion of 'jobsworth' types on ticket barriers...

 

sadly in most people's minds, the bad experiences are always going to outweigh the good ones.

True.

 

I do doubt how much a change of franchisee will make a difference.

I agree, because any 'bad apple' individuals that aren't weeded out by disciplinary procedures will simply transfer to the new franchise under TUPE.

 

On another topic raised above, that of the line becoming a building site: I heard on the local gardening grapevine recently that the garden centre which occupies the former main line trackbed at Stapleton Road station has been given notice to quit part of its site, with a note that they will lose their site entirely within the next two years. So presumably that's the timescale for the requadrupling of Dr Day's-Filton.

You are entirely correct (although I wouldn't have described the site as a 'garden centre' - I wasn't aware that they actually sold stuff??).

 

There are some major infrastructure improvements planned by Network Rail for the Bristol area over the next few years, which are now in the public domain. Filton Jct to Dr Days Jct is one of those improvements, and will make a massive difference to Bristol's ability to cope with increased rail traffic in the future. Yes, there may be some short term disruption when engineering works take place, but a large effort has already started to minimise that effect. However, you can't make such major improvements at a place like Bristol and keep the railway going, without a bit of disruption. It's going to be excellent when it's all finished, really, really good. I always thought it was daft to remove those two lines from Filton Bank back in the 1980s, and it makes me very happy to see that decision reversed now, and for all the right reasons.

[Captain Kernow]

(I'm new around here, do I have to salute?)

No one else does!

 

because the driver had been "mislaid". That's right, they didn't know where he was.

I do cringe at some of the public announcements made, and none of the operators are immune from this...

 

'Mislaying' a driver could be down to a number of things, most likely his inward working was delayed and he may have been taking a statutory break. If so, then they should refer the current delay to the previous one, and not make amateurish statements about forgetting where they have put their staff!...

 

I don't understand the problem with posting something dating from 2008. I also posted something from this year, the two links appearing to show that nothing had changed.

Maybe that's one area of 'agree to disagree'. I said that because I have seen clear evidence of improvement in virtually all areas since that time, which is why I thought that the 2008 article could now be considered 'historical' and superceded by more recent events.

 

The problem I have is with the management.

I think, with respect, that perhaps you may be referring to the political management by the government/department? I say that, because I interact with FGW at all levels, and I can honestly say that all their managers are highly motivated and keen to do the right thing. I really wouldn't offer that opinion if I didn't believe it.

 

Privatisation was a mistake. The railways are now getting, what, three times the subsidy they ever did in the days of BR?

Ah, now here's an interesting debate!

 

Yes, you can argue that there are some areas of expenditure that didn't exist under BR, due to the fact that these are private companies. But it really isn't fair to blame these companies merely for operating within the environment laid down by our political masters. It's surely significant that Thatcher didn't want to privatise the railways in the first place, and that both Labour and Conservative parties have subsequently shied away from any significant changes to the current structure?

 

I know that many folk look back on the days of BR with fond memories, and there was a great deal there to commend itself. But... there was also what I refer to as 'the bad old days of BR'... consider 'maintenance holidays', for example, where virtually nothing was spent on maintaining branch lines and even some secondary lines. To an extent, this was continued into Railtrack days, and we are now literally paying the price for that.

 

However, the positive side to that is that investment in the railway is at a very high level now, and more of the so-called 'money saving' rationalisations of the 1970s and 1980s are reversed (Probus - Burngullow singling, Cotswolds singling, Filton Bank, to name but three on the Western alone).

 

With the privatised structure of the railway, there are equally many of the more minor schemes that could only have happened under the privatised regime, and would never have happened under BR.

[Guest]

Funnily enough, I'm sitting reading this on a Virgin train that's just had to reverse back up the line because the driver forgot to stop at Nuneaton! All a little strange when he announced it, saying that we could call him any name we wanted to. I suppose this kind of thing could happen on any service, but as a regular West Coast traveller its nothing that has ever happened to me before. I actually enjoy travelling with Virgin and think they do a great job on the franchise.

 

This is completely off-topic but I have to share this.

 

I remember seeing my train pull in with a full-blown Rastafarian in the cab (nice chap, I managed a few words with him at the end of the run). I will studiously neglect to name either the TOC or the destination. Anyway, it was only a short 15-minute journey. At the end of it, the announcement is usually something along the lines of 'We are now approaching XXXXX where this train will terminate. Please make sure you have all your personal belongings with you.' Not this guy. What we got was 'Nnmm. Train now come into XXXXX. You be sure you have all you tings wit you, y'hear?'

 

I remember walking up the platform and seeing the cab door opening, and expecting to see a cloud of sweet-smelling smoke come billowing out but no such luck. He probably did more for his company's public image than any cheesy advertising campaign ever could.

[John M Upton]

My personal experience of the First Group has been that FGW used to be a dreadful mess, especially when that awful 'Seagull Manager' type Elaine Holt was in charge who noticeably never seems to stay with a TOC for very long before cocking it up beyond recognition and then overnight departing to another one. Last I heard she was at East Coast, says it all really.

 

FGW have certainly witnessed much pulling up of socks in recent years but have had a difficult set of cards dealt them from the great DfT Poker Dealer with seemingly contantly meddling by the minions in Whitehall as they played musical DMU's. If the can sort out areas that need attention like their long distance Class 158 operated services that really need to be treated to new stock of longer formation ASAP (there are times when the Brighton to Cardiff trains loadings would easily fill a full set HST!!) then they will be well on the way to getting much better.

 

Scotrail seem to do very well and barely rate a mention anywhere. The fact it is practically a self contained franchise and is carefully overseen and managed by the Scottish Government probably helps.

 

The worst side of First however is First Capital Connect, an utter shambles (another Elaine Holt disaster area as well!) that makes Connex look good with rolling stock that has been universally trashed by North London's graffiti morons, interiors that look like they have hosted a rioters AGM and every single train either late, cancelled or short formed and/or rammed floor to ceiling. Never has a franchise so much said 'We have lost this franchise so we don't give a toss anymore' without actually saying it.

 

I just wish they would not paint everything pink and purple as well!!!

[The Stationmaster]

My personal experience of the First Group has been that FGW used to be a dreadful mess, especially when that awful 'Seagull Manager' type Elaine Holt was in charge who noticeably never seems to stay with a TOC for very long before cocking it up beyond recognition and then overnight departing to another one. Last I heard she was at East Coast, says it all really.

 

It is, I think a very pertinent point. Not necessarily about that particular individual but about something which has happened under privytisation where a number of individuals have flitted from TOC to TOC with reputations often built (in some cases 'usually' would seem more appropriate) on short term cost cutting which could have been achieved by a bright teenager simply because it was done without concern for longer term consequences, i.e. what would be happening a year later. This has regrettably been encouraged (for want of a better word) by franchise holders with minimal understanding of the industry looking for a quick return (i.e profit this year) and is the 'nasty face' of privytisation which in one or two cases has had very serious safety implications (for instance one franchisee, long gone, never followed up SPADs by its Drivers because it had cut out all the Inspectors who did such work - none of its organisational cuts had been Safety Validated).

 

Things now are probably much better but there are still one or two folk in senior positions who got their recognition in a way that would have seen them shoved in a corner in BR days - never to be let loose in charge of anything ever again. Others weren't so bad but again rose far more quickly and with much narrower experience than they would have had in BR.

 

So it is not surprising that there are differences between various TOCs, even those run by the same franchisee, because some of them are still having to either pay for or find ways round the mess earlier managers/directors left them in. Equally other franchises have been led by experienced ex BR people who knew what they were doing and clearly had sufficient gravitas and respect to resist the financial ambitions of their new masters - just as BR once did with what has now become DafT. Mind you as one of these 'better' people said to me not long after retiring as MD of a large TOC 'I do have share options and I have to think about my financial security' - so clearly, even with the best, the piper still calls the tune for at least part of the time.

[Ron Ron Ron]

......GNER I quite liked - why they lost that one I would really like to know. .....

 

.......East Coast - as I've said before - have gradually gone downhill since GNER lost the franchise (which was due to a Sea Containers group problem, not the way they were running the franchise).....

 

GNER lost the ECML franchise because their parent company, Sea Containers, was in financial trouble......

 

Off topic, but just to put the record straight.

GNER's problems began when they massively over-bid to win and retain the ECML franchise in 2005.

There was scepticism at the time that their exaggerated traffic and revenue growth predictions could ever be achieved.

Then the 7/7 bombings in London occurred and the (then) present day passenger traffic collapsed, with the prospect of it taking half the franchise life to get back to the pre-7/7 levels, with no chance whatsoever of meeting the predictions used to win the bid.

 

At this point it was very clear that GNER would not be in a position to meet their future premium payment commitments over the full life of the franchise. They would have bankrupted themselves if they'd tried, but even though that possibility was still some way off, the DafT were reported to be alert to the situation.

To top this, the DafT then awarded Great Central, an open access licence (despite GNER's valiant efforts to appeal against ), which would see further revenue being abstracted away from the franchisee through the revenue sharing mechanism (ORCATS).

 

Parent company Sea Containers were then revealed to be in dire straights, eventually resulting in them filing for chapter 11 bankruptcy.

As a result, the DafT had no option but to remove GNER from the ECML franchise as soon as was practicable.

 

As an aside, the stupid DafT didn't learn from that experience and following the end of GNER's tenure, let the franchise to NX who won with an equally OTT bid based on similar fantasy growth targets....and surprise surprise!!!!

 

Sorry to go off-topic guys. Back to the script....

 

 

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