RMweb Gold PhilH Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 Difficult to explain this one, and it might well be more to do with failings on my part as much as anything. I go to a few exhibitions and one thing I've started to notice is that the larger the scale layouts are built in, to whatever standard they are built to, they seem to lose something in terms of, I don't know, let's call it 'soul'. The trackwork is immaculate, the stock is superb, the buildings are just so, but they seem almost dead as in you (I) don't seem to be sucked into the world they are trying to recreate. I wonder if it is the fact that the larger the scale the less is left to the imagination, the less work the brain has to do in completing the illusion, this process being different for all of us so we all complete the illusion in the way we would like it to be. I don't know if part of this is the fact that a lot of o gauge layouts I've seen don't feature a backscene, so the world stops all too often in a rotund waistline. As I say, very ethereal, difficult to explain and probably just me anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It's not just you Phil and I do 'get' what triggered the thought process. As an answer to the question is it's not the scale but, as you say, the soul. It's about what's missing rather than what's there. There are antidotes though - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56443-poynton-sneer-sidings/. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I know what you mean Phil. I think the 'problem' with some of the 0 gauge layouts is that they are often presented in an immaculate form, i.e. not weathered, they don't look lived in. Marc's Poynton Sneer shows just how good it can be when that essential atmosphere is present, here's another, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15931-bury-thorn-sons/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 I've pondered this as well, I think it goes back to what someone called the "modelness of models" - there's something inherently fascinating about small models of larger things, which is obviously not going to come through as strongly when the scale gets larger. I've seen some wonderfully captivating 7mm layouts - Andy's example is a good one - but (for my money) there does often seem to be some intangible absence of something which leaves the layout looking unfinished or under-detailed or sterile, although I can't articulate it better than that. But I've often looked closely at 7mm layouts trying to work out what exactly it is that isn't quite doing it for me even though all the elements seem to be present and correct. This is no way intended as knocking the larger scales - if that were the case I would not pay good money to support a number of larger scale shows during the year, and I own a small collection of 7mm models which may one day find a layout - but given the choice between goggling at a 7mm and a 4mm layout, I know which I'll generally be drawn towards even if it can't rationalise it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2012 To be the biggest issue is normally the lack of world outside the railway. You might get the odd hint but when you look at the smaller scales you get the opportunity to see the landscape as well which can be very important in giving a reason for the railway and help to tell the narrative of model. Smaller scales do miss out on the sheer physical presents of the stock however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I get something like that, Phil and Andy, but for me the cause is different. I think it is because with the larger scales you notice that half the elements (the people, cars etc.,) are usually static whilst the railway moves around them. It looks more odd just because of the size. In other words your eye tends to linger on that exquisitely painted and modelled figure that remains in the same place forever. There is less tendency to do that in the smaller scales because they look more homogeneuous. Yes, some layouts could have better backscenes etc., but I'm not sure that that is the right answer. Best, Pete. PS Written when there was just two posts to this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I belive it's not just the lack of the outside world. I have seen some quite crude modelling that appears to be "the norm" in 0 gauge that would not be tolerated in 4mm such as no brake gear, crude fixings to valve gear and conecting rods with obvious screw heads showing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 I belive it's not just the lack of the outside world. I have seen some quite crude modelling that appears to be "the norm" in 0 gauge that would not be tolerated in 4mm such as no brake gear, crude fixings to valve gear and conecting rods with obvious screw heads showing. I don't think it's that, though; I can think of some 7mm layouts where the quality of the modelling was beyond reproach, but there was still that lack of something, which would be there whether there was rolling stock in view or not. As for the benefits of 7mm and larger scale, yes, it's surprising (to me) how often the inherent bulk and momentum of the trains is negated by indifferent running, derailments etc - at least as often as in the smaller scales. I've seen some shockers at recent shows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 For me, I find myself sucked into the larger scales more easily than the smaller. I like n gauge because it is compact, you can do some big landscape projects with it and get a good scope over the boundary fence, but it still feels very much like a toy train, and doesn't have the physical presence of the bigger stuff. All the O gauge stuff i have seen on the circuit recently have been full paid members of the Flat Earth Society ... something the better layouts in smaller scales have tried to move away from. Even the really big 7mm stuff (ie 30'+ layouts) seem to think its ok to have little in the way of undulation and some very unrealistic looking scenic breaks. I know these things take a little more effort in 7mm+, but it is not impossible ... that said, my micro is pretty flat, so maybe i should keep my mouth shut Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I can see what you're driving at Phil but I think some of it comes down to the skill of the modeller concerned and the imagination of the onlooker, or even better, a combination of the two - a couple of examples.... Brian Daniels - I've seen several of his 7mm diesels in the flesh just sitting on a shelf in glass cabinets, but they're so good that I almost imagine a layout appearing around them... the quality of the painting and weathering on these locos manages to push the right buttons and set the mind's eye off on a tangent of it's own. Steve Harrod and crew - their 10mm 'Worcester Road' depot diorama / layout really hits the spot for me, even though I've only ever seen it in photographs, although I have seen a couple of their Hydraulics in the flesh. Looking at this layout you get the feeling of the shed building being around you rather than in front of you.... a scenario which wouldn't normally apply to most large scale exhibition layouts but in this case I think it works very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointstaken Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Part of the answer is how much the eye can take in at any one time - more detail is absorbed in the smaller scales in a single glance than in the larger scales. Dennis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 "Does something get lost as the scale gets bigger ?" Buffer heads, screw link couplings, eyesight, patience.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Brian Daniels - I've seen several of his 7mm diesels in the flesh just sitting on a shelf in glass cabinets, but they're so good that I almost imagine a layout appearing around them... the quality of the painting and weathering on these locos manages to push the right buttons and set the mind's eye off on a tangent of it's own. Good point. I really appreciate good models of Ships but I would never suggest floating them in water in a model harbour. Scaleability does not always work. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It may be a different way of looking at the same issue, but I have always thought that different scales had different strengths and weaknesses. In 2mm scale, for the same amount of real estate, you can include an awful lot more of the surrounding countryside. In 7mm scale, you can include a much greater level of detail and some of the weathering effects survive much closer scrutiny. It is a continuum on which you can pick the point at which you (and your eyesight and your hamfistedness) feel most comfortable. Like most things in life, there is a tradeoff and, for me, 4mm provides the right balance of detail, with a manageable amount of background, in a space that I can accommodate. With appropriate amounts of time, space and money, is there any reason why a large sale layout should be any less atmospheric? Best wishes Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2012 For me, it's the frequent need to heavily compress the railway as well to as lose most of the outside world that spoils it for me with 7mm and above. Very cramped station layouts with overly short sidings, platforms & run round loops featuring Class 40s, Black 5s or whatever on 2 coach trains, no matter how superbly modelled, just don't look right to me. Pete Waterman's layout very obviously gets away from this, but then again he has the resources most of us can only dream of. Honourable exceptions to this rather sweeping generalisation (IMHO) that come immediately to mind are "Ditchling Green" and the various Ian Futers layouts, where short trains really do look dead right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 "Does something get lost as the scale gets bigger ?" Buffer heads, screw link couplings, eyesight, patience.... I always find that those are the things that are more likely to get lost as the scale gets smaller . Best wishes Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2012 I think it's all to do with the difference between the man made world and that which mother nature cobbles together. Generally speaking the man made gets easier to model as the scale increases, whereas the natural world just gets harder and harder. Think of 2mm scale trees, impressionistic ones easily cut the mustard but in 7mm scale you need to be the uber-talent that is Gordon Gravett to make ones which convince. Good figures in 4mm look real because of their stance rather than detail,16mm narrow gauge modellers have a range of characterful ladies and gentlemen but they come with a touch of the seaside postcard caricature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
definate maybe Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I have often felt the same and I think it comes down to what detail you expect to see. For me, looking at an N gauge model is like looking at the prototype from the distance.You expect to be able to make things out but alot of the details is missing. You can tell whether the train is clean or dirty. You can tell what it is running through, whether it is urban grime or a nice meadow but you dont expect to be able to make out the full detail of the apples on the tree, although you can probably tell its an apple tree. Moving up to OO is like coming that little bit closer on the prototype. You can pick out that much more of the detail and you can see the puddles on the floor, the broken BR nameplate on the loco and the rabbits playing in the field. You can see that a loco is heavily weathered but wont be able to see the individual layers of grime that make up the dirt. O gauge gives the impression of being by the line. You expect to see those pieces of detail like the apples on the tree, the individual branches etc. On the loco you expect to see the scuffs and dents etc. I think it is those individual items that so many miss. A lot of the O gauge models I have seen, even those that do include detail, make it look like the world was created yesterday and dirt, bumps and those every day things that turn a once pristine scene into something a bit more individual are all missing. It can feel too 'chocolate box' and can lose its appeal as a result. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one to have pondered this over the years. I still haven't quite managed to put my finger on the problem, but several posters above have mentioned things that I've considered as part of the problem. There is almost certainly an element of too much track and not enough scenery on a lot of 7mm layouts. As has been mentioned above, this doesn't help with fooling the eye into thinking it's looking at something real. Added to this, is the difficulty in convincingly recreating nature in this scale, mentioned by Neil. On top of this, I think, is a lack of attention to texture. For instance, how many layouts accurate represent the edges of roads, where you often have fine dirt along the edges? ISTR that Hursley did, but that is one of the benchmark layouts, in my mind. You'd get away with it not being there in 4mm scale, but I don't think you can in 7mm - it adds to the neatness that doesn't sit quite right. Developing this theme a little further, could it be that striving to build our models perfectly, particularly in terms of straightness and neatness contributes to this lack of convincingness? Very little in the real world is perfect, you can see that when you start looking around at stuff, perhaps the odd slightly angled telegraph pole would reduce the effect. In addition to the texture point above, perhaps the surroundings often don't have the small details that the eye is expecting to see, although the rolling stock may have. I think that this is where Poynton Sneer scores highly, due to the size of it, Marc has been able to go to town on adding the little details, without taking a lifetime to do it. Another part of the equation for me, again related to texture, is the smooth sides of most models, where I think you would expect to see some kind of imperfection. Even if you didn't want to add texture to your model in this way, it could be addressed by adding colour variation to it, giving a hint at the imperfections that the eye expects to be there. In my mind, 7mm scale is perfect for highly detailed models, but these need to be given highly detailed surroundings if it is going to work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 This is an interesting point,; I just posted this in Mickey's "Layout in a week? N guage wayside station" thread. mickey was pondering a 4mm version of the layout. A 4mm version will be good to see too! Do you have duplicate sets of stock? Showing them side-by-side would be interesting - I know you've said that the 2mm versions of your plans won't look right if they're simply 1/2 the 4mm version's size, but need a bit more "breathing space". I suppose it might be something to do with our size perception & how close we view things - a 2mm model looks good viewed from further away, we perceive them as more of a model of a whole area; whereas we might want to get closer to a 4mm version as we assume there will be better detail to look at close up - therefore a more contained area can still be convincing, a smaller but more concentrated model...? My basic theory being that you do perceive 2mm models as an overall model of an entire area, as "Pointstaken" says above - the whole area is seen in one glance and we don't feel the need to get closer to the model because we feel we're getting a complete picture. Larger scale models almost demand a closer look so we feel the need for closer inspection - and get disappointed when any flaws are apparent... Don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, if you understand what I'm saying can you explain it to me as I'm not sure I understand it myself...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted September 10, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 Thanks very much for the replies so far - all interesting, all food for thought. Thanks also for not turning it into a 7mm (for instance) v the rest type of thing - it was never meant to be that. I should add that part of the retirement keep me out of mischief plan is for a 7mm micro layout, for which I am collecting stuff now. It will be interesting to see what sort of mess, sorry job I can make of it. It's brilliant in my head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I wonder if it is the fact that the larger the scale the less is left to the imagination, the less work the brain has to do in completing the illusion, this process being different for all of us so we all complete the illusion in the way we would like it to be. I'm starting to get worried. If this was in fact true then what about the 12 inch to 1 foot scale? I think the phenomenon that you are seeing is simply the modelling freak that is sometimes referred to as "viewing distance". The smaller the scale the more distant we are able to view it and the more visual suggestion we are able to gain from the model as a whole, as a scene. As the scales increase the overall scene is reduced (we just don't have the space to model it) and we become more drawn into specific objects of the scene. We can easily count rivets in 7mm to the foot, in 12 inch to 1ft we can see and touch the hammer marks on the rivet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted September 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2012 Cheers, Kenton - you've explained what I was getting at, but far more succinctly! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSB Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 What 7mm models do have over smaller scales is far greater "presence". All scales have their strengths and weaknesses and it seems to me that the first requirement to create an interesting layout in any scale is imagination! I don't think there are more 'flat-earthers' in 0 than in 00 and N although I've noticed a lot of talk about building 'shunting planks' recently which does seem to be a rather boring concept in any scale! I have had thoughts about building a small shunting layout in 0 but it certainly won't be on a flat plank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I agree with Phil. there isnt many 7mm layouts that excite me, you see a lot of O gauge depot layouts for examplecrammed with nicey nice loco's all pristeen, but take all the locos off and the layouts never look that convincing to me. its usually colours I think, vibrant orange rust rails etc. best layout for me is Gordon & Maggie Gravett's Pempoul, colours, backscene, buildings everything looks spot on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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