Enthusiasts in Hi-Vis

[TheSignalEngineer]

I see that Northern Rail Customer Service staff on the platforms at Manchester Piccadilly now have tops with regulation reflective stripes not in hi-viz orange, but a rather regal shade of purple

[TheSignalEngineer]

Table A2, page 29 in this report (http://www.rssb.co.u...ity records.pdf) makes interesting reading.

 

Staff fatalities in movements accidents starts at an a average of a couple of hundred or so a year in the 1940s, and falls steadily to the current position where 3 a year is a bad year. A couple of dozen a year was typical for the 70s-80s.

 

Reductions lie in a number of areas, not least the amount of manual labour on track maintenance and renewals in earlier times.

 

Two points do stand out to me on the step change in the early 1990s. Firstly, there was the campaign led by the late Peter Wing following a series of fatalities involving S&T staff in the late 1980s. This had a lot to do with alterations in the way on-track work is now carried out. Secondly, the Transport and Works Act 1992 was the driver behind the level of drug and alcohol screening now used. Prior to that there was an accepted drink culture in many areas, and at least one case where a Lookout was high on cannabis when an on-track accident occured.

[Sam Moss]

From what I can make out from excuses I've heard it seems to be a case of people think they are safer and it also allows then to go anywhere as they are safe.

 

The amount of times we've had to stop at Butterley because someones thought "I'm wearing a Hi Vis so I can go lineside" must be in triple figures. They're normally ones who in the past have asked for lineside passes and have been told many times that they are not issued due to insurance purposes and due to the fact that public foot paths run pretty much the full length of the line. Its mostly the same people and we normally end up knowing them by name. They mostly haven't paid either and are freeloading but their excuse is " I email the pictures in for your mag"....well as nice as that is, it doesn't pay the coal or diesel bill. Hence if they get shirty when asked for a donation towards the event bill they normally get asked to leave. We've actually chased the step ladder camera brigade around the reservoir before to get cash out of them! Then you have the "Oh, I thought the track bed was disused and was a footpath" people, regardless of the fact that visiting engine plus coaches has been chuffing up and down all day and the said person has a very large camera on their person. (They must think we're thick)

I won't get into to freeloading to much though as I could rant all day about that......its a personal hate of mine!

[kevinlms]

Table A2, page 29 in this report (http://www.rssb.co.u...ity records.pdf) makes interesting reading.

 

Staff fatalities in movements accidents starts at an a average of a couple of hundred or so a year in the 1940s, and falls steadily to the current position where 3 a year is a bad year. A couple of dozen a year was typical for the 70s-80s.

 

Thank you StuartP, that is exactly the information I wanted to know. So there HAS been a significant reduction in fatalities.

 

I can also see that many factors have made the railways & work places much safer. A lot of hard work by many people and a tightening up on attitudes, not least of which alcohol and drugs, as reported by TheSignalEngineer.

 

 

Still work to be done. Recently here, a bakery owner died of carbon monoxide poisoning, when due to planned electrical upgrading in his area, he decided to get a portable generator and ran it inside the building to keep his business going. Bad mistake.

 

“Victorian workers returning home safe every day” is the current campaign being used in Victoria, hard to argue with the intentions. Aimed at the idea that returning home to a waiting family, is more important than a shortcut at work.

[Bulldog]

Large Notice boards were at the entrances to platforms/ Ticket offices at SVR steam gala this weekend, Requesting photographers not to wear hi- vis vests on the platforms.

[The Stationmaster]

Reductions lie in a number of areas, not least the amount of manual labour on track maintenance and renewals in earlier times.

 

Two points do stand out to me on the step change in the early 1990s. Firstly, there was the campaign led by the late Peter Wing following a series of fatalities involving S&T staff in the late 1980s. This had a lot to do with alterations in the way on-track work is now carried out. Secondly, the Transport and Works Act 1992 was the driver behind the level of drug and alcohol screening now used. Prior to that there was an accepted drink culture in many areas, and at least one case where a Lookout was high on cannabis when an on-track accident occured.

 

And there are some other interesting step changes in the numbers as well - 1983, albeit a blip, is one in respect of movements fatalities (that date standing out a bit more out of several over about 5 years of decline in numbers of 'movements accident' fatalities while 'non movement' fatalities generally had a steeper decline in 1969). The latter follows fairly closely on the departure of a lot of staff and activities to NCL and is probably a consequence of that organisational change as much as anything else.

 

Overall I think some of the reduction in movements fatalities sits to some extent alongside the years of rationalisation with a fairly steep decline over the decade from c.1962 -72 but then as the network size stabilised the reduction is driven partly by the sort of things SE explained plus continuing, but slower, reduction in some sorts of higher risk activities. Interestingly the H&S Act doesn't seem to have created any change noticeably different from the general trend.

 

More tellingly - although the figures are obviously not wholly up to date - the massive 'safety initiatives' of recent years along with the mountains of paperwork etc don't seem to have had much effect either. Non-movement staff fatalities - albeit with some blips, were at a very low level buy the late 1980s with movement accident fatalities similarly dropping in the early 1990s. It can obviously be said that any fatality is one too many but arguably at the same time it almost looks to be the case that the administrative and managerial cost of avoiding that fatality is now excessive in relation to what it achieves (but that is said in ignorance of injury statistics - which might tell a different story).

[Guest Natalie Graham]

. Older experienced workers came down on young workers behaving foolishly like a ton of bricks and this was more effective than any H&S rulings! Sure accident happened but that is an innevitable fact of life.

 

My grandfather, born in the 1880s so definitely of an earlier generation, spotted a young inexperienced worker doing something potentially dangerous and pulled him up for it. 'If you put your hand on there like this' he demonstrated, 'that machinery there could come down on your hand and chop your fingers off'. At which point it did just that and thereafter my grandfather was short of a finger. I would imagine the younger chap learned that lesson particularly well.

[HeavyDuty]

Table A2, page 29 in this report (http://www.rssb.co.u...ity records.pdf) makes interesting reading.

 

Staff fatalities in movements accidents starts at an a average of a couple of hundred or so a year in the 1940s, and falls steadily to the current position where 3 a year is a bad year. A couple of dozen a year was typical for the 70s-80s.

 

One thing I didn't see in this table (and I didn't read the entire report) is the ratio of fatalities to staff. I would assume the railways employ many fewer individuals at the end of the reporting period than at the beginning which would likely temper much of the decrease.

 

We're about ten years behind the UK here. I am a volunteer officer for the county in a position that is a blend of police, fire and EMS. We have had our PPG replaced five times in the last seven years as Federal standards have changed and are on the verge of yet another change. We've gone from blue vests with reflective panels to two different orange vests with panels to two different large yellow vests with panels, and may soon be adding hi-vis trousers.

 

Some of our smaller officers are starting to look like refugee cast members from Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat because the requirements for number of square inches on a vest have increased to the point that their vest are knee length.

[James]

This thread has gone downa route I never intended - it was the attitude of a disappointing number of enthusiasts I really wanted to highlight. I think we've seen it in the thread on two brake vans on demonstration goods recently. The misheld belief that the railways and heritage sector exists for their benefit! Very the much the sort who walks up the steps at a signal box and says "It's OK if I come and take a couple of photos, isn't it?!" whilst not even breaking stride. That last one, incidently, didn't like being asked to leave...

 

I've experienced H&S in the steel industry and it makes an interesting comparison with that of the railway. As some of you may know I spent nine months working on p-way maintenance at Scunthorper Steelworks. When working deep within the works itself, it all made perfect sense. I really believe there are no other rail jobs like rerailing beneath the blast furnaces! Here the full PPE of overalls, helmets, gloves and glasses really made sense. However out on the edge of the site the safety glasses merely annoyed you as you went about the day checking fish bolts!

 

To this day I'm still not sure if the site supervisor believed the response to the question of why you weren't wearing your glasses was that you'd removed the to clean them!

[Edwin_m]

Begging James's pardon to continue the "other" discussion:

 

One thing I didn't see in this table (and I didn't read the entire report) is the ratio of fatalities to staff. I would assume the railways employ many fewer individuals at the end of the reporting period than at the beginning which would likely temper much of the decrease.

 

I must add my thanks to Stuart for finding this. I've now read it through and this point is addressed by presenting staff numbers in another table. The number of staff has gone down by 80% during the period covered but the number of staff fatalities has gone down by 99%, hence the risk to an average individual staff member is still about 95% less. Though it doesn't say so, it is quite possible that this statistic is affected by a likely even greater decline in very high risk railway occupations such as shunters. Probably also by an increase in the number of staff who don't go near a train or a track all day long!

 

It certainly looks as if most of this decline happened before the mid-80s and the changes after that, including increased PPE, are chasing a diminishing return. On the other hand, if things had stood still from that date, would the increasing casualisation of the workforce have led to an increase in risk? The introduction of competencies policed by Sentinel cards is certainly intended to address this issue.

[The Stationmaster]

Begging James's pardon to continue the "other" discussion:

 

It certainly looks as if most of this decline happened before the mid-80s and the changes after that, including increased PPE, are chasing a diminishing return. On the other hand, if things had stood still from that date, would the increasing casualisation of the workforce have led to an increase in risk? The introduction of competencies policed by Sentinel cards is certainly intended to address this issue.

Casualisation and recruitment of staff into an industry where old 'consciousnesses' (of danger and risk) have been forgotten or not passed on must be a factor but that in my view is as much a training issue as one of PPE and procedures. Sentinel cards might have improved things but there are still instances (according to my sources) of people slipping through the net and getting onto sites without proper briefing, or job knowledge, or equipment and tools and there are still instances of those in head to foot orange and all the gear who are convinced they are 'safe' solely because they are wearing all the kit. So maybe labour force changes are a factor that needs to be reckoned with?

 

Coming back to where James started, and has now returned, there is no simple cure for the different kind of idiots who don this kit in the hope of achieving better views or access or whatever. The only answer I can see is to report them as trespassers if that is what they are doing and to hope that other, more responsible, enthusiasts will deal with them in places open to the public.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Regarding trespassing, did anything every happen regarding the guy who Nidge photographed by the WCML at Catiron earlier this year?

[Oldddudders]

Confession time. I regularly wear BR orange hi-viz vests - some so old they have buttons, rather than velcro fastenings - when walking my two horses down to their Winter quarters 2 km away. My English neighbour also wears one that I've lent her on such occasions. A former soldier, she can tell hair-raising tales of being in the eastern Zone in divided Berlin, where she worked in Intelligence. If they went into the eastern Zone - as the agreement entitled each side to do, inspecting the other's equipment (ooh!) - then they would be tailed by a Trabant with two guys wearing their version of hi-viz - a fake leather coat and dark glasses!

[Rugd1022]

Regarding trespassing, did anything every happen regarding the guy who Nidge photographed by the WCML at Catiron earlier this year?

 

Well I've not heard a peep Peter, but his photo is still on my flickr page for all eternity (or at least until someone else takes it down).

[kevinlms]

Large Notice boards were at the entrances to platforms/ Ticket offices at SVR steam gala this weekend, Requesting photographers not to wear hi- vis vests on the platforms.

 

Exactly so, as the practice ruins it for everyone else. Its OK for those officially supposed to wear such items, but not for the general public.

[lmsforever]

On the track when you are supposed to be there and have accreditation ,not on the platform no arguments and certainly photographers who these vests are diluting safety.

[kevinlms]

This thread has gone downa route I never intended - it was the attitude of a disappointing number of enthusiasts I really wanted to highlight. I think we've seen it in the thread on two brake vans on demonstration goods recently. The misheld belief that the railways and heritage sector exists for their benefit! Very the much the sort who walks up the steps at a signal box and says "It's OK if I come and take a couple of photos, isn't it?!" whilst not even breaking stride. That last one, incidently, didn't like being asked to leave...

 

 

 

But that's a general statement about rudeness of some individuals.

 

But think about it this way, those type of people will NEVER understand why they always get told (politely or perhaps not so politely) to go away.

 

At a railway hobby function, an avid signalling fan & timetable collector told us how with his military training in Canada & UK during WW2, he told of virtually always coming away from visits to the local signal box with all sorts of copies of working timetables etc, and this was at the time of the darkest days of WW2, when it ought to have strictly no, no.

 

It would appear that he had a far different approach, to your 'friend'. Perhaps being a country signalman in Australia had something to do with it?

[R A Watson]

Not really on a railway theme, but, on the B B C midday news today the political commentator was reporting from the Liberal Democrat event at Brighton. He was standing in the entrance lobby immediately in front of a stall selling H V outdoor clothing both orange and yellow!

 

I assume from this they must give protection from flying eggs and mud.

[Boris]

It's the same mentality as the herbert who wore a hi-vis a few years ago to stand in my front garden to take pictures, he got really nasty when asked to remove himself, mind you Mrs Boris started the petrol strimmer up and the basic survival instinct kicked in at that point.

 

I found the best way to get pictures of a signal cabin is to ask the signalman if you can pass them your camera so they can take you a couple of photos inside their box. That way you don't disturb them as much and you still get your photos!

[DavidH]

... A former soldier, she can tell hair-raising tales of being in the eastern Zone in divided Berlin, where she worked in Intelligence. If they went into the eastern Zone - as the agreement entitled each side to do, inspecting the other's equipment (ooh!) - then they would be tailed by a Trabant with two guys wearing their version of hi-viz - a fake leather coat and dark glasses!

 

Do you mean BRIXMIS? There's an enthralling book about the mission. I recall that one early trick was to have all the tour car's lights rigged to go off at the flick of a switch - so at night you'd be high-tailing it down the road, flick lights off, sudden swerve into side road/gate/field, leaving Trabant to go sailing past desperately trying to see where their quarry had gone. The car lights could also be changed to make the tour car look like a motorbike from behind.

 

I digress :-)

[James]

I found the best way to get pictures of a signal cabin is to ask the signalman if you can pass them your camera so they can take you a couple of photos inside their box. That way you don't disturb them as much and you still get your photos!

 

Though in the case of mainline boxes, photography of the inside of the box isn't permitted as it could be a security risk, so I'm told...

 

But that's a general statement about rudeness of some individuals.

 

But think about it this way, those type of people will NEVER understand why they always get told (politely or perhaps not so politely) to go away.

 

It is rather general but I'll stand by it! But you're right the people to whom I'm referring will never learn... Sadly...

 

It would appear that he had a far different approach, to your 'friend'. Perhaps being a country signalman in Australia had something to do with it?

 

The approach is key - one nice thing about my present location is that it is impossible to reach the box without trespassing in a rather obvious manner! The flip side of this is you don't meet the nice enthusiasts who sensibly wait to photograph passing trains...

[paul-dereham]

At the North Norfolk Railway you can apply for a lineside pass for photography. You have to do an exam....and wear a hi-viz vest when lineside.

[James]

[quote

name=paul-dereham' timestamp='1348521504' post='794006]At the North Norfolk Railway you can apply for a lineside pass for photography. You have to do an exam....and wear a hi-viz vest when lineside.

 

That's to be expected and is essentially a PTS for that particular railway. a bit different from what I was getting at.

[Boris]

At the North Norfolk Railway you can apply for a lineside pass for photography. You have to do an exam....and wear a hi-viz vest when lineside.

 

It's the same with the NYMR they have the exam and also fill out a short medical questionnaire to certify that they aren't going to keel over in the middle of nowhere any time soon and that they have two of everything essential. They also book in and out with signalmen so if someone has fallen over and hurt themselves we can see about looking for them (and it has happened and the system works).

 

On our charters however we discourage folks from wearing a hi-vis, the only people we want in hi-vis are the stewards/organisers so they are easily identifiable. At the end of the day the charter is the only thing in steam for several miles, has the token and broadly knows where all the punters are.

[The Stationmaster]

At the North Norfolk Railway you can apply for a lineside pass for photography. You have to do an exam....and wear a hi-viz vest when lineside.

Basically the railways have to do this for insurance reasons - assuming their insurers are prepared to accept the practice in the first place - and to cover themselves from a liability viewpoint in that they will have a piece of paper or three to produce in evidence in the event of anything untoward happening to the photographer. It's quite a good system provided that the exam itself is not only sensibly based but would also be good enough to stand up as evidence of a briefing which has been understood and that can be a significant risk area for the railway to manage - hence it's something not all do (and part of the reason why BR withdrew Lineside Photographic permits as H&S became more promininent).