Wright writes.....

[Horsetan]

.... "I cant solder, paint etc" is the common cry. Have you ever tried? In most cases the answer is no. Quite how you can develop a skill without having a go is beyond me. ....

It did make me wonder how people managed to breed if they weren't prepared to have a go.....

[salmonpastures]

I notice not much is said about those who, no matter how its done, get other people to build their layouts for them whether it by  having the money to pay people to build things for them or by having a large enough circle of model railwaying friends to do "swaps" )many are not so lucky or are not skilled enough to offer anything to swap. If that's the way they want to do their layouts, that's also fine by me.

Whilst I find the discussion interesting, entertaining and sometimes amusing, it may well put some people off.

Alan,,, not having a LARGE circle of friends [although it is getting bigger!!!] is for me one of the benefits of living in the middle of nowhere.

Whilst I would be delighted if Norm-Salmon popped in to improve my trackwork or be able to recruit Ian Rathbone to do my painting,, lets be honest it's not going to happen.

 

Having said that I'm actually rather proud that my layout is all my own work.

As I'm sure you are with Wencombe.

Having been involved with "big club" layouts,,, unless you have a Stalinesque project manager they can end up as horrible compromises in lots of area's.

Good or bad it is my trainset and I really wouldn't want anybody else getting involved with the serious decisions/activities.

 

I also fully understand your lack of interest in building locomotives,,, with your chosen interests it would get pretty boring pretty quickly.

 

SAD

[wagonbasher]

What a splendid post Larry.

 

My most grateful thanks. What you've posted really set me thinking, particularly to the extent of how much of a hypocrite I am. A hypocrite in that I will NOT attempt to master much in the way of new technologies at any price. Here are a few examples. I (think) I have a mobile phone. If it exists, it's in one of the cars, switched off! In fairness, that's all it is - a phone. Last week, a younger modeller I'm helping produced his iphone (is that the right description?), which also is a camera. In less than a minute, he'd brought up Comet's instructions, prototype pictures of the coach he's building plus prototypical notes. I held it, must have touched something, because the picture twizzled round, then went dim, then disappeared! I handed it back in disgust. Despite the lack of speed, give me books any time. 

 

Computers, I consider to be the 'spawn of Satan', especially when applied to model railways. Though thus described, I have two. One is my digital darkroom (and, despite my hypocrisy, I'll never go back to old-fashioned wet-processing) the other the one I use for e-mails and RMweb. In fairness, both are a bit old, but they do the job - if slowly. As for computers with model railways, every time I see one being used to 'control' a layout, I cringe. I have no interest in such applications and refuse to learn otherwise. 

 

Though I've no wish to go over old ground, the minute I'm confronted with faffing around with DCC, again, I refuse to even try. It all seems too complicated to me. 

 

An old friend has an ipad. He's two months younger but is obviously more willing to learn. But, he never seems to be able to escape his e-mails, even though he's retired. He's almost constantly looking at it to check things, even when we're in conversation. Both my sons have gadget phones, and they're always looking at them. Look around any restaurant/pub; do folk indulge in interactive, face-to-face conversation any more? 

 

As for my cooking ability, let's not go there.

 

So, I've been rumbled. I go on and on about people not willing to try things, and yet I'm the worst offender in many ways.

Tony.. If the line side telegraph is working correctly you're in Wolves over the weekend for the show.

 

We are out with Black Country Blues, please come and say hi.. You are welcome to have a play with the dcc.. No pressure, I promise you it will be easy enough. Points and signals are still by switch. Feel the power as you open up the class 47 on the TEA Albion tanks that you pulled up on the viaduct.

 

We would love to entertain you, you might like it and we may get a sit down.

 

Come and wallow in a bit of 70's Black Country magic.

 

 

Andy

[newbryford]

 

 

Add to that a genuine belief that actually making something is enjoyable and rewarding and you may share my view that it is worth having a go, to paraphrase Wilfred Pickles. One thing I learned during my career is that people, when challenged to do something a little outside of the normal usually succeed, enjoy the achievement and recognise that they have abilities/resources they weren't aware of (or should that be "of which they were not aware"?).

 

Jol

 

My bold.

That may be part of the problem today with the seeming lack of younger modellers willing to try. I think that today's generation are more afraid of failure than those like myself that grew up pulling apart Triang TT Jintys and fitting them with crudely glued together BEC bodies for a J72, J11 or Q1 (complete with hideously thick whitemetal boxpok wheel overlays..................).

 

In some ways, I can understand not wanting to take a saw to a £100 plus model - or in some cases, even something as relatively simple as removing the original number to renumber. It does take a certain amount of confidence in one's abilities to do that.

 

Most of my work is with 17-18 year olds and I can readily see that they want to be perfect - they are afraid of failure and being judged by their peers. I often spend some time convincing them otherwise - if the result isn't as required first time, then they can always do it again. The downside is that it does take more time and money and that's another unwanted pressure on them. However, when they do get it right, it's great to see them recognise their own achievements and it also gives me great job satisfaction.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited November 6, 2015 by newbryford

[peach james]

I realize I am firmly in the missing group (those 20-50 or so) on here.  But, technology is meant in a hobby context, to reduce the stress not add to it.  If you (looking at Tony W here...) think that DCC is something you don't want on your layout, then by all means, use DC instead.  If you (Larry) think that building coaches is a lot more fun than waiting for RapBachHornPool to make the sleeper from the 21:30 on 34th of Notober, 1954, by all means make one. 

 

To me, the ability to criticise should be very much limited to areas where you are willing to stick your own head & work up for the same sort of critique.  Here, Tony W. has more than put his money where his mouth is- the work you produce is of first class, and apparently (from ~6000 km away) you are willing to help anyone willing to listen as well.  That's where the answers lie, to me as a hobby...if you are an armchair expert, I don't have a lot of use for you.  Dad and I are a bit famous for being abrupt with some of the instant experts- the simple answer is "show me yours", and if they say, come over, I live at 28 anystreet, then you are likely in for a treat, and if they backpedal faster than Lance Armstrong...well, you can guess how much they actually have done. 

 

The exact areas which an individual is interested in, to me, doesn't really matter.  I suspect that Larry's interest is far more in accurate coaches in comparison to mine, and Tony wants a scenic model of LB and scratchbuilt locos.  My interest with Long Marton has been to produce a signaling simulator with live trains, and the best way I could see from 15 years ago was with computers providing the logic.  (rather than a room full of relays).  The scenery is of some concern to me, and the trains themselves, RTR is fine for what I want them to be.  I have kits for some of the iconic stock (Anhydrite wagons and Conflat P's), and have, I think the skills to build them.  My personal interests do not lie in making OO scale kits of locos which are available RTR.  If nothing was available, for example for Britannia's RTR, then I would go down the kit road.  I just do not think of kit loco building as being my hobby.   (and quite similarly, in larger sizes, where I much rather run someone else's built live steam engine than build my own- I have one I built, and have the ideas, but would rather pay someone else for their hobby time and expense than build from a kit of castings).

 

Again, to me, if someone has something to show for their hobby, and is not a blowhard, then the wider hobby should be greeting with open hands.  If not a and b, then to me, they go into the generally ignored file.

 

James Powell

[St Enodoc]

As a diesel modeller much of the fun enjoyment and reward has been taken out my modelling with all the mainline classes  and many of the larger shunting classes being available in RTR form. Gone are the days when I would wake up on a Saturday morning and think I would like a so-and so class. Nip down to my local model shop and come home with some sheet of plastic card and a second hand loco for its power unit. By bed time on the Sunday most of the hard work had been done ready to show my fellow club members what I was building on Monday night. No point now the wish listers have got there way and it is too easy for all of us to nip down to our model shop and on Monday night get the new toy out the box to show our mates.

 

It might be I am getting older or a loss in MoJo but I keep finding I start a project but never seem to finish any these days.

 

By the way did anyone else fill in this years wish list.......the only thing I have ever seriously asked for on a wish list is a Flatrol EN, complete with counter balance weights and the two four wheeled flatrols and the two 80ton Warflats. It wasn't on the list. :no: :no:

I voted for a 00 Insixfish.

[jwealleans]

I voted for a 00 Insixfish

Well, there you go you see, different attitudes... Our club President, aged in the vicinity of 80, saw one of those in a picture in Suffolk, thought 'that looks interesting, would be great on the next club layout' and just set to with the plastikard.

 

 

I don't want to sound as if I'm having a go, but these are only the second wagons he's scratchbuilt and he's running them on his layout now rather than waiting on an announcement and then a production schedule somewhere down the line in China.

Edited October 26, 2018 by jwealleans

[LNER4479]

It did make me wonder how people managed to breed if they weren't prepared to have a go.....

A bit like this, you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Bi2cYEU5s&feature=youtu.be

[grahame]

Most of my work is with 17-18 year olds and I can readily see that they want to be perfect - they are afraid of failure and being judged by their peers.

 

 

Is it soley that? Possibly not, although certainly youngsters can be vary critical and cruel amongst each other, whereas older folk tend to be more supportive and encouraging with their peers and, of course, the hobby is dominated by older enthusiasts.

 

However I do get the impression that youngsters expect and want the best of everything now and with little effort (on their part). And unfortunately these days it is often given to them from an early age, meaning they don't learn the value of effort and patience (and hard work?). They certainly won't put up with secondhand or homemade stuff these days.

 

G.

Edited November 6, 2015 by grahame

[St Enodoc]

Well, there you go you see, different attitudes... Our club President, aged in the vicinity of 80, saw one of those in a picture in Suffolk, thought 'that looks interesting, would be great on the next club layout' and just set to with the plastikard.

 

 

I don't want to sound as if I'm having a go, but these are only the second wagons he's scratchbuilt and he's running them on his layout now rather than waiting on an announcement and then a production schedule somewhere down the line in China.

Excellent models Jonathan and well done to your President.

 

My position on this is that I don't actually need one (or more) so I have no plans to build one (or more), but if one became available I would buy it as it is such an interesting-looking wagon.

 

In case anyone thinks I am solely an RTR type, may I say that over the years I have built a few loco kits, a few more coach kits, and a lot more wagon kits, but if something I need/want is available as a decent RTR model then I will buy it and use the time saved for something else like building points or signals.

[ejstubbs]

 

Has it come to that? Being "twitchy" about publishing articles that need the use of a saw and a soldering iron?

I know these things are no longer taught in schools, but words fail me!!

 

Pete

 

It's probably a combination of the Nanny State and the risk of getting sued. A sad state of affairs indeed. 

 

I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with that.  Just stop for a moment to consider the quantities of cookery books that are published each year, and the innumerable recipes that appear in newspapers and magazines, on TV and online.  These involve chopping, slicing, dicing, cutting, grating, peeling, crushing, tenderising, the use of power tools like blenders and food processors, high temperature processes often involving the use of a naked flame - basically, a multitude of tools and techniques which could, if mis-applied, result in potentially serious injury.  Actually, the kitchen gadget that gives me the willies every time is the mandolin - it looks to me like it was designed specifically for the removal of finger tips!  Nonetheless, I will confidently offer a prize* for anyone who can provide a convincing reference to case which has been successfully been brought against a publisher as a result of injuries arising from attempting to follow a cookery recipe.

 

As for the use of the tired old Daily Express catchphrase "the Nanny State": how the 'state' has anything to do with what private individuals might choose to try to sue people for is beyond rational comprehension.  Still, at least no-one's mentioned the equally weary "Health and Safety gone mad!"  Oh, hang on... 

 

* Something obscure from my spares box, probably.

[coachmann]

When it comes to coaches, the simple fact is I have to build them because I want to represent the types of vehicles that ran on the line I am modelling. But I am certainly very happy with the latest RTR coaches and the piggy bank is currently filling up ready for release of the Bachmann Hawksworth Auto-Trailer and Hornby Collett corridor coaches. 

[Stanley Melrose]

My Dad was an engineering draftsman and as soon as I could hold a pencil, he started to show me how to do technical drawings of boats and planes.  I probably made my first balsa wood aeroplane when I was about 5 or 6 and went on to make planes and boats thereafter.  A Trix Twin layout at 7 or 8 never satisfied so it went to Hattons and in return I had a Graham Farish prairie tank with that weird motor/gearbox which was a constant source of frustration.  Tri-Ang stuff followed (including a Black 5 made from a carved up Princess!) but all too soon pressure of exams, girl friends and the purchase of my first car (in 1961 a 1934 Austin 7) put modelling well into the background, although the monthly purchase of Railway Modeller continued from 1955 until about 2 years ago when I decided I had seen enough of what had been on offer over the previous 60 odd years.

 

At the last half-term, three grandchildren came to stay for a few days and they happily played with the layout, although none had any idea of how the real railway might operate.  I had a session in front of my computer with the older grandson and we found on YouTube a video of an American teenager making a balsa wood glider.  I told my grandson that well before the age he is now (10 - almost 11), I was making planes more complicated than that and offered to show him how to do it.  His dad (my son) had once won a medal at the model engineering exhibition for a diorama (with only a very little help from me . . .) but while he is a competent DIYer, he hasn't found time to give his kids the start in making things that I hope I did with mine.  That said, many hours are spent with Lego and drawing all sorts of things which augurs well for their creativity.  I showed my grandson some pictures of model planes built from formers and ribs with stringers from strip wood, all eventually covered with tissue paper and doped, and asked if he would like me to help him make something like that.  His reaction was immediately to say that he didn't think he could.  I told him that we could start with a simple glider made from sheet balsa and in time he would have the skills to go onto more complex models.  He says he'd like that but we shall see.  The two boys have had a Hornby set I gave them for several years, as well as a 6ft x 4ft baseboard I made for them to play trains.  The baseboards are in the loft, along with the boxed trains.  Will they become modellers?  I don't know but somehow I doubt it.

 

Does it matter?  To me, it seems they might miss out on the thousands of hours of satisfaction (and frustration) that I have had in my lifetime but maybe they'll find other routes to enjoyment - just as long as any railway modelling is to P4 standards . . . .

 

Stan

[davefrk]

It's been mentioned before that people who 'play trains' do sometimes become the butt of jokes from none modelling pals, that is until someone wants something fixing - 'Oh Davy could fix that he builds trains'. It has happened to me, from friends or people I worked with they soon changed their tune, from workmates up to the MD of the company who's car was 'keyed', David can spray things so he can have a go, in the works time as well....   Cassette recorders, cameras, a kettle, and most ridiculous of all fitting a 13A plug... Some of these people were fellow engineers but they never had any experience of building even an Airfix kit, so sad.

How did I learn these things, my dad served his time as electrician then went into the drawing office at Reyrolls in Hebburn, a technical guy, he showed me how to cut metal, solder, do electrical stuff, rewire kitchens, draw things and join wood together, long before computers.

Okay these days it is sometimes just as cheap to buy a new household item than to have it fixed but if one can fix it oneself like me dad used to you have a certain satisfaction. E.G. the Dyson we have is like the old Irish shovel because new vacuum cleaners have no suck in them these days thanks to the new EEC regs.

So like Tony W. to get back on topic, I prefer to make something rather than sit at the computer and order it.... Though I have done that too.

 

Dave Franks.

Edited November 6, 2015 by davefrk

[Chimer]

Ticking "agree" to Westerner's recent post moves me to chip in to the philosophical debate - my aim is to build a bit of railway which is vaguely in line with my 1960 memories, I have absolutely no wish to (attempt to) build locos and rolling stock, I am simply not interested in developing the particular skills required, especially as manual dexterity (which was never great) and eyesight fade.  So, yes, I am a "slave to RTR" for those aspects of my railway modelling, and rather object to the phrase being used as an insult as it was earlier in this thread (not by TW, I hasten to add).

 

So can I be satisfied with my railway modelling without building my own locos?  Yes I can, just as TW can, thankfully, evidently be satisfied with his without moving to P4 and compensated chassis.  Though I do fully understand his satisfaction argument, as I did indeed get more satisfaction (and frustration) from scratchbuilding a bridge and retaining walls from card and brickpaper than from assembling my Metcalfe goods shed kit, even though they don't look as good.  But then that's in an area where I am happy to experiment, and where the cost of the repeated early failures was low!

 

I hope TW encourages many modellers who have the nascent skills and aptitude to give it a go.  But my bottom line is that I have no doubt you can be a satisfied railway modeller without being a loco modeller (especially if your model railway is not the only obsession in your life - On Stanley On!!).

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Edited November 6, 2015 by Chimer

[corneliuslundie]

Not the current topic of discussion, on which I think my views are shared by many here so I have not much to add, but congratulations to Tony (and friends) on achieving over half a million views on this thread - not a record but up there with the most popular threads.

 

It shows that it is a thread which is always entertaining, often informative and (thankfully) almost always good natured.

 

Jonathan

[coachmann]

How many generation have come along since we older folks were born?  Because of war and rationing we had few toys, so human nature being what it is, we entertained ourselves. Watching passing trams and buses at the top of our lane and going home afterwards to draw them kept me happy. I was aged four and by this age many later generations of kiddies had masses of toys and even computers. So I look at it this way, if everything is provided for children, they grow up to become consumers ~ hence wish lists. I cannot see how this trend can be reversed in children, indeed does it really matter anymore. Who knows, maybe my childhood hardship is the reason why I am a constant-builder. I would be bored crapless otherwise.

[Worsdell forever]

I think we all should do it in our own way, some people get a kick out of opening the latest blue or red boxes and playing trains/running a layout that is made up of peco or whatever track in 00 or N with ready made buildings etc (some even model the GWR!), for me it's all about the making. I have a vision and idea of what I want to achieve and set to and make it, if I waited for an S&D/NER 1001 class in EM RTR I'd never get anything done so out with the drawing, brass and piercing saw and get on with it and I think I'm progressing quite well (see my workbench).

Although I enjoy exhibiting it's the building that does it for me, anyone who has helped me at an exhibition, or just ventured behind the layout will know that if they get too close to the controller they will be given it!

[Poggy1165]

Yes, indeed, we should all do things our own way and be tolerant. Apart from anything else, people change over time. I can well remember thinking PECO Streamline 00 track was just fine, and not being able to understand why some chaps fussed about bullhead rail and chairs. Now I fret because some of my chairs only have three bolts and some of my sleepers are a scale 8' 6" instead of 9'. I used to run any old PO wagon the trade deigned to supply. Now I am mega fussy and get into a fret about whether that livery was in place circa 1914 and whether the axleboxes pass muster. In part this is because I simply know more than I used to do. But it's also the case that (in some ways) I am a lot more of a rivet counter than I was as a young man. But I'm still the same person.

 

It would be an interesting test for me if instead of a Terrier in 7mm scale Dapol had wheeled out something like (say) a LDEC 0-6-0t. I suspect my credit card would have been out faster than a greyhound from the traps. I don't think I'm snobby about RTR at all, as long as it isn't full of careless errors. It just so happens that the trade doesn't cater for my requirements, and is most unlikely ever to do so. But on the other hand, I do think that those who never make anything themselves miss out on an awful lot of fun. Albeit, they also miss out on a awful lot of frustration.

[APOLLO]

I subscribe to the "Frank Sinatra" school of railway modelling

 

And now, the end is near;
And so I lay the final siding,
My friend, I'll say it clear,
I'll drive the last track pin, of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life that's full.
I've studied each and every railway;
And more, much more than this,
I built my railway.

Cock-ups, I've made a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each layout's course;
Each careful step along the byway,
And more, much more than this,
I built my railway.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I bodged it up, not threw it out.
I made it all (well, some of it) and I stood tall;
And built my railway.

I've loved, I've laughed and cried. (MTK diesel kits)
I've had my fill; my share of losing (small bits on the floor).
And now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that;
And may I say - not in a shy way,
"Oh no, oh no not me,
I built my railway".

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And built my railway!

 

Brit Sinatra
 

[thegreenhowards]

I voted for a 00 Insixfish.

I voted for the Anglo Scottish car carrier GUV converted from the ex Southend line stock. I need 8 so there's no way I'd scratch build them! Plus various Gresley/ Thompson catering vehicles which I am building, but you can never have enough. Oh, and a Thompson Pacific, but fat chance of that!

[landscapes]

I subscribe to the "Frank Sinatra" school of railway modelling

 

And now, the end is near;

And so I lay the final siding,

My friend, I'll say it clear,

I'll drive the last track pin, of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life that's full.

I've studied each and every railway;

And more, much more than this,

I built my railway.

Cock-ups, I've made a few;

But then again, too few to mention.

I did what I had to do

And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each layout's course;

Each careful step along the byway,

And more, much more than this,

I built my railway.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew

When I bit off more than I could chew.

But through it all, when there was doubt,

I bodged it up, not threw it out.

I made it all (well, some of it) and I stood tall;

And built my railway.

I've loved, I've laughed and cried. (MTK diesel kits)

I've had my fill; my share of losing (small bits on the floor).

And now, as tears subside,

I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that;

And may I say - not in a shy way,

"Oh no, oh no not me,

I built my railway".

For what is a man, what has he got?

If not himself, then he has naught.

To say the things he truly feels;

And not the words of one who kneels.

The record shows I took the blows -

And built my railway!

 

Brit Sinatra

 

Just brilliant

 

David

[MJI]

I want to model trains I saw in the 70s and 80s, so get stuff from wherever.

 

RTR Kit, heavy conversion all the same to me as long as I like the end result.

 

However I am buying mainly SH now due to the cost of buying new stuff.

 

I wanted a particular DMU type, no RTR models, no known kits, so I took the next option of cut and shut.

 

It is telling though that a lot of my models are Bath Road allocated just like 31401 (Airfix 31) and 31154 (D5572 Triang).

 

I enjoy buying a nice model and I enjoy making my own.

 

But I am a lot happier about chopping a tatty SH example than a brand new model

[queensquare]

 

It is telling though that a lot of my models are Bath Road allocated just like 31401 (Airfix 31) and 31154 (D5572 Triang).

 

I enjoy buying a nice model and I enjoy making my own.

 

But I am a lot happier about chopping a tatty SH example than a brand new model

I remember 31401 well, it was a regular on the Cardiff - Pompey trains. I lived in Warminster and was a regular spotter at Westbury and Bath Road from about '73 through to the early eighties.

 

Jerry

[grahame]

Undoubtedly there is a pleasure in buying and owning a fine model - that's why I've purchased far too many RTR locos with many of them absolutely of no use to the layout I'm building. But there is also a special additional pleasure and satisfaction to be had in making ones own models, be they kits or scratch-built, or even simply bashed RTR.

 

They don't have to match or surpass the quality of finish that you get with RTR - I'm not competing or measuring myself against professional commercial model making manufactures. I'm making them for my pleasure, the fun of it and because no-one else has one quite like it. Consequently I always find the excuse of not being able to make things to the current RTR standards a bit of a convenient excuse and cop out from even trying.

 

G.