Wright writes.....

[Guest]

Are Pacers still operational? Now they do/did ‘rock ‘n’ roll’!

[DougN]

I was asked to go to West Wales as a part of my job.  Been doing it for years.  Only this time I had to submit a risk assessment, identifying risks and actions to be taken in mitigating those risks.  I pointed out to the Boss that the most dangerous part of the trip was probably the M4.  "So how are you going to mitigate the risk" says the Boss.  So:

 

1. All drivers licenced & experienced.

2. All vehicles modern, recent, serviced regularly, current MOT

3. Regular rest breaks, driver changes

4. Obeying the Highway Code

etc. etc.

 

Did all this pointless form filling make the job safer?  Did it 'eck as like.  It's all about companies covering themselves, in conjunction with the ever-growing band of 'elf n' safety experts making life as difficult as possible with very little (if any) benefit.  Sure, it has it's place (Building Sites being a prime example); however it's rapidly ballooning out of all proportion.  The next we'll see is no more school sports days (all that unnecessary running around), in case little Jimmy trips and bangs his knee.  It doesn't matter that little Jimmy grows into 25st. big Jimmy, with Diabeties and a dicky Heart.....

Polybear, please don't just dump H&S on building sites. I see things in all industries that have been driven from H&S from the building industry. Eg every delivery truck driver wearing hi vis. (The local safety inspectors have admitted as so many people wear hiviz that it has become ineffective) The thing about H&S is to save the fingers and toes of tradies but as it has been a point of Unions and subsequently Politcal parties this has created the culture your talking about. Did the paperwork stop the person being killed..... no but it did stop the industrial man slaughter charge. I come from a point where I am forced to push for a practical point of view. Where I foster a culture to look after the workers on my building sites and to have a ongoing conversation about not doing risky activities. But due to the legislative requirements we produce a heap of paperwork which is counter productive and in some cases people become blind to the risks because they did the paperwork!

 

Sorry this is a soap box of mine. I have told off tradies for smoking, using grinders without guard etc... they look at me like I am mad! Both of these things I will point out are either against the Aussie law for a work place or a serious risk of injury.

 

So as I will say to my guys.... keep all parts of your body away from the sharp spiny bit...! So far this has worked!

 

No injuries in the last 5 years.

[St Enodoc]

Polybear, please don't just dump H&S on building sites. I see things in all industries that have been driven from H&S from the building industry. Eg every delivery truck driver wearing hi vis. (The local safety inspectors have admitted as so many people wear hiviz that it has become ineffective) The thing about H&S is to save the fingers and toes of tradies but as it has been a point of Unions and subsequently Politcal parties this has created the culture your talking about. Did the paperwork stop the person being killed..... no but it did stop the industrial man slaughter charge. I come from a point where I am forced to push for a practical point of view. Where I foster a culture to look after the workers on my building sites and to have a ongoing conversation about not doing risky activities. But due to the legislative requirements we produce a heap of paperwork which is counter productive and in some cases people become blind to the risks because they did the paperwork!

 

Sorry this is a soap box of mine. I have told off tradies for smoking, using grinders without guard etc... they look at me like I am mad! Both of these things I will point out are either against the Aussie law for a work place or a serious risk of injury.

 

So as I will say to my guys.... keep all parts of your body away from the sharp spiny bit...! So far this has worked!

 

No injuries in the last 5 years.

Two very effective safety posters that I have seen over the years:

 

"No helmet. No job. No buts".

 

"Look after your eyes. You're down to your last pair".

[Lecorbusier]

Sorry this is a soap box of mine. I have told off tradies for smoking, using grinders without guard etc... they look at me like I am mad! Both of these things I will point out are either against the Aussie law for a work place or a serious risk of injury.

 

So as I will say to my guys.... keep all parts of your body away from the sharp spiny bit...! So far this has worked!

 

No injuries in the last 5 years.

I preface this by saying my visits are periodic and the sample is limited ..... but this chimes with my experience as a professional visiting building sites. Plenty of lip service to hi vis and helmets .... then operatives not using eye protection during cutting, no ear defenders whilst kangoing and ladders not tied in etc etc. ...... yet all the correct inductions and paperwork in place!

 

In reality its down to the operative and immediate supervision .... the culture of the site not the paperwork.

 

What I would say in my experience is that over the last 30 years the H & S push has raised general awareness and supervision has radically improved ..... but higher up the food chain my observation on building sites is that there is as much (and often more) emphasis on avoiding litigation as there is on the welfare of the men/women at the coal face.

[Tony Wright]

Kings could rock and roll like Status Quo. I used to sit at Laira Shed east end of the coaling lineb and when a King thunderedcpast heading for North Road it would roll and buck on the easy bend that was slightly uphill and super elevated. Quite impress. ive but probably uncomfortable for the crew. The fireman would have been hanging on and probably hadnt been firing since east of Hemerdon.

I have a Video of Clan Line doing it's thing around the system and in one telephoto sequence at Surbiton I think it was, it was rolling like a fat pig running as it traversed the S curve on approach. Looked amazing.

Remember when we walked in the vicinity of the old flat crossing at Retford, Phil? 

 

Must be three years ago now - or more!

 

60 years ago, when I was trainspotting there, we were dissuaded from standing on the old island platforms of 2 and 3 - access meant passing the ticket collector. However, since our train for Kiveton Park left from Platform 3, natural access was given. Which meant we could stand at the south end of the platform, looking towards the flat crossing. Since Platform 2 was also the Down fast road, it was very exciting. To watch, particularly, an A1 taking the crossing at speed (nominally 65 mph), with it swaying and bucking was most-entertaining! They certainly didn't ride like 'silk'. 

 

A friend of mine lived at Hatfield towards the end of ECML steam. At Hatfield, it would seem, the Down expresses were really getting into their stride, free from the encumbrances of the northern suburbs. There was a crossing at the south end, adjacent to the signal box, and that 'box used to be peppered with coal, thrown off the tenders (which had been overloaded?), on a regular basis because the loco and tender used to bounce and sway, just at that crossing. He was told that the signalman never needed to order coal for his stove, though the 'box access step treads needed replacing from time to time. And the occasional pane of glass.

 

Great days!

Edited November 10, 2018 by Tony Wright

[polybear]

Polybear, please don't just dump H&S on building sites. I see things in all industries that have been driven from H&S from the building industry. Eg every delivery truck driver wearing hi vis. (The local safety inspectors have admitted as so many people wear hiviz that it has become ineffective) The thing about H&S is to save the fingers and toes of tradies but as it has been a point of Unions and subsequently Politcal parties this has created the culture your talking about. Did the paperwork stop the person being killed..... no but it did stop the industrial man slaughter charge. I come from a point where I am forced to push for a practical point of view. Where I foster a culture to look after the workers on my building sites and to have a ongoing conversation about not doing risky activities. But due to the legislative requirements we produce a heap of paperwork which is counter productive and in some cases people become blind to the risks because they did the paperwork!

 

Sorry this is a soap box of mine. I have told off tradies for smoking, using grinders without guard etc... they look at me like I am mad! Both of these things I will point out are either against the Aussie law for a work place or a serious risk of injury.

 

So as I will say to my guys.... keep all parts of your body away from the sharp spiny bit...! So far this has worked!

 

No injuries in the last 5 years.

 

Sorry Doug - not my intention to dump on the Construction Industry. However, in the UK it has in the past had it's problems (and some) with regard to injuries (and worse) but from what is reported certainly seems to have turned itself around.

However, this too appears to be going just a step too far.  I noticed a neighbour had lost a roof tile, so I mentioned it to them in case they were unaware.  They knew about it, and replied that the Insurance Company were dealing with it; they were waiting for the Scaffolding Company to turn up in order to erect scaffolding, so the roofer could then fix the tile.  One tile......

I was tempted to say that the Insurance Excess and increased premiums would far outweigh the cost a local roofer would charge.  All done safely using a ladder.....

[Clive Mortimore]

Having worked on the receiving end of other peoples accidents, my experience was that we had less injuries form industries that health and safety is normally observed, the building industry being one, than the DIY gang. Farming would bring in the most horrific injuries, mainly due to the lack of H&S training to farmers and their families. As I say we had loads of DIY amputations where people would be using hobby tools with little regard to their own safety. Gardeners when the weather improved were quite good and putting fingers into lawn mowers " it was working last year but seem to be jammed up so I thought I would unblock it". People who would go off to their man shed to take their minds off some bad news, would take a finger off as well through not concentrating. People thinking they could do a job and save some money without using the right equipment "It was only one tile. So I got my ladder out. Next thing I found myself in the greenhouse covered in blood".

 

Having said that I have been a victim of my own stupidity and sat in A&E where I put a scalpel blade through an artery in my thumb. Trying to model make and look after two young children at the same time.

 

Health and safety is common sense so use it everyday no matter what you are doing. And don't do anything with sharp tools to take your mind off bad news. Sit down with your favorite railway book or video. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

I don't know whether this is still current in the teaching profession, or if it limited to certain schools, but a teaching friend of mine has to do the "school visit" one week beforehand, do a H&S assessment and submit it to higher authoritoes!

 

Mike.

[Clearwater]

I seem to recall that the statistics on industrial deaths in the UK construction industry are almost exclusively in the small jobbing builder sector rather than the large, major projects. Major construction companies take the precautions described. Their people come home safe. It’s the jobbing builder that doesn’t have the detailed H&S policies and culture where someone slips and falls from a roof.

 

For those interested:

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/pdf/fatalinjuries.pdf

 

Most uk industrial deaths are falls from height. The trend though in overall deaths is down. Most major companies, mine included, have an absolute “safety first” mantra. I’ve been to meetings with electricity companies whose meetings start with a safety moment and fire drill briefing. Some companies make it a disciplinary offence to use a mobile, even hands free, whilst driving. All of this contributes to the overall trend of aiming to ensure everyone comes home safely

 

David

Edited November 10, 2018 by Clearwater

[JeremyC]

Sorry Doug - not my intention to dump on the Construction Industry. However, in the UK it has in the past had it's problems (and some) with regard to injuries (and worse) but from what is reported certainly seems to have turned itself around.

However, this too appears to be going just a step too far.  I noticed a neighbour had lost a roof tile, so I mentioned it to them in case they were unaware.  They knew about it, and replied that the Insurance Company were dealing with it; they were waiting for the Scaffolding Company to turn up in order to erect scaffolding, so the roofer could then fix the tile.  One tile......

I was tempted to say that the Insurance Excess and increased premiums would far outweigh the cost a local roofer would charge.  All done safely using a ladder.....

On the other hand my wife knows a building worker who fell off a ladder while working on a house. He landed feet first on the ground, but caused so much damage to the bones in both feet that they had to be amputated.

People often seem to think somethings safe just because, this time, nothing happened.

Edited November 10, 2018 by JeremyC

[chris p bacon]

  All done safely using a ladder.....

 

 

Sorry Polybear but ladders are far from the safest means of roof access.

 

You have a ladder leaned against a plastic gutter which is shiny and slippy and compresses with weight, you climb right to the top where the point of pivot is and then have to step to one side and pull yourself up onto a ridge ladder laid on the roof. As you cross over the chances of the ladder sliding away or pivoting on the gutter are very high. I've seen far too many roofers dangling from a ridge ladder rung or fighting to keep hold of the ladder with their feet.

Sadly the reason most people want to keep things simple is cost, a ladder is far cheaper than a simple scaffold tower and I've always found that safety is not something the customers wallet wants to pay for.

[chris p bacon]

Having worked on the receiving end of other peoples accidents, 

 

Having worked on the receiving end of other peoples accidents, 

 

 

Having worked on the receiving end of other peoples accidents, 

 

 

Having worked on the receiving end of other peoples accidents, 

 

 

Having worked on the receiving end of other peoples accidents, 

 

 

Clive...are you having a 'Groundhog day' ?

[queensquare]

To get away from all this very dreary H&S talk I thought it was worth giving a heads up to this excellent thread which, being in the 2mm area, I suspect only a handful of you will have seen.

The 2mm Association celebrates its 60th anniversary in 2020 and to mark the occasion Nick Mitchel is building a Jubilee for the Jubilee. Its now up to part 24 in a superb set of videos outlining the build which would be useful to anyone aspiring to have a go at an etched kit, regardless of their chosen scale.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134129-a-jubilee-for-the-jubilee/page-1

 

A Youtube playlist can be found here

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZZlPcvHpX05JrF3aEBkjJaOQiSBLHS9l

 

I think Nick has done a fantastic job with these videos, social media at its best

 

Enjoy, Jerry

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive...are you having a 'Groundhog day' ?

Hi Dave

 

I was having RMweb problems and it was not appearing to have been posted so I hit post again and again and again......

[grahame]

To get away from all this very dreary H&S talk  . . . . 

 

Yep, a nice, welcome change.

 

And to add something else a little different here's my latest modelling efforts. It is far from complete but is supposed to represent the complex junction of Borough High Street, London Bridge, Duke Street Hill and Railway Approach - and which is made additionally tricky by the various levels and slopes, and all in N/2mm. This little scene will be a the back of the layout.

 

 

The buildings, all scratch-built, are from left to right: Southwark cathedral (low relief with progressive compression), Bank Chambers (now a pub), Bridge House, Hibernia Wharf/Two London Bridge, then across the road No.1 London Bridge tower block with in front the pavement ramp London Bridge Walk that passes under Colechurch House. Across the front will be the high level railway viaduct.

 

G.

[jollysmart]

Sorry Polybear but ladders are far from the safest means of roof access.

 

You have a ladder leaned against a plastic gutter which is shiny and slippy and compresses with weight, you climb right to the top where the point of pivot is and then have to step to one side and pull yourself up onto a ridge ladder laid on the roof. As you cross over the chances of the ladder sliding away or pivoting on the gutter are very high. I've seen far too many roofers dangling from a ridge ladder rung or fighting to keep hold of the ladder with their feet.

Sadly the reason most people want to keep things simple is cost, a ladder is far cheaper than a simple scaffold tower and I've always found that safety is not something the customers wallet wants to pay for.

 

That is why the ladder should be secured to the wall by inserting an eye bolt into the wall close to the top of the ladder and tying to it to prevent movement.

[CUTLER2579]

So beg me for asking  but, how do you  secure it to the wall by inserting an eye bolt into the wall close to the top of the ladder and tying the Ladder  to it to prevent movement, So how do you do all this without climbing the Ladder ?   

Your going to need an SDS  to get your hole or a hammer and chisel (similar to using Rawplugs in my younger days)., whilst working off an unsupported ladder.

I suspect you are saying you would rest the top of the ladder below the guttering,but then surely the transition from the ladder to the ridge ladder would be fairly dangerous.. I am not being sarcastic for one minute just very curious.

Regards,Derek.

[Steamport Southport]

Are Pacers still operational? Now they do/did ‘rock ‘n’ roll’!

 

Yes. I was on a Northern Rail one the other day.

 

 

 

Jason

[RLBH]

So beg me for asking but, how do you secure it to the wall by inserting an eye bolt into the wall close to the top of the ladder and tying the Ladder to it to prevent movement, So how do you do all this without climbing the Ladder ?

Your going to need an SDS to get your hole or a hammer and chisel (similar to using Rawplugs in my younger days)., whilst working off an unsupported ladder.

I suspect you are saying you would rest the top of the ladder below the guttering,but then surely the transition from the ladder to the ridge ladder would be fairly dangerous.. I am not being sarcastic for one minute just very curious.

Regards,Derek.

Scaffolding need not be overly expensive - I have on hand at the moment a bill for some gutter repairs by my building's factors, which involved erecting and dismantling a three-storey scaffold tower. The contractor they use is notoriously expensive, but it still only runs to £350.

 

Knowing how dangerous ladders are, I don't begrudge them a few extra quid to do the job safely. Granted it took six months for them to do it at all , and they may not have done it right, but those are other matters.

[gr.king]

Take your pick. They are all as bad as each other. But I mean the one with trains run by Transpennine Express.

 

I was under the impression that the trains to South Yorkshire were run by East Midlands Trains.

 

 

 

Jason

The one????

 

Transpennine Expresses do run from Manchester Vic via Huddersfield and Leeds to points North of the Humber. They also run hourly from Manchester Airport, Manchester Pic, via Stockport, Edale, SHEFFIELD, DONCASTER (i.e, SOUTH YORKSHIRE) and Scunthorpe to Grimsby and Cleethorpes.

 

Although the East Midlands Trains services include one beyond Sheffield to Manchester and Liverpool, and another that reaches beyond Lincoln to Cleethorpes, they mostly operate further South and certainly don't have the monopoly of the South Yorks area or the South Yorks to Manchester route. Many services in South Yorks are provided (or not) by Northern Rail - Pacers and all.....

Edited November 10, 2018 by gr.king

[jollysmart]

So beg me for asking  but, how do you  secure it to the wall by inserting an eye bolt into the wall close to the top of the ladder and tying the Ladder  to it to prevent movement, So how do you do all this without climbing the Ladder ?   

Your going to need an SDS  to get your hole or a hammer and chisel (similar to using Rawplugs in my younger days)., whilst working off an unsupported ladder.

I suspect you are saying you would rest the top of the ladder below the guttering,but then surely the transition from the ladder to the ridge ladder would be fairly dangerous.. I am not being sarcastic for one minute just very curious.

Regards,Derek.

 

I am not an expert but I believe that SKY aerial fitters and Openreach overhead wire installers do this, I think they also have a stand off bracket at the top of the ladders which  would make the ladders not depend on seating on the guttering. The ladder is secured at the base and then the eyebolt inserted and the ladder tied off before the higher work commences which allows the operative to work more safely. I think that the ladder is also supposed to extend well above the gutter level to make transition to the roof easier. You also have to seek permission from the customer to drill their wall for the eyebolt.

 

This is not a definitive description of the process and could be outdated as it is a while since I had anything to do with overhead work and we didn't do any of these things at the time. The process has moved on significantly, and continues to evolve, according to the people I know who are still involved, but I'm sure that you get the basic idea.

 

The simplest safe way to work at higher levels is to use an elevating platform.

 

Anything which makes a potentially dangerous working environment safer is to be applauded.

[Steamport Southport]

The one????

 

Transpennine Expresses do run from Manchester Vic via Huddersfield and Leeds to points North of the Humber. They also run hourly from Manchester Airport, Manchester Pic, via Stockport, Edale, SHEFFIELD, DONCASTER (i.e, SOUTH YORKSHIRE) and Scunthorpe to Grimsby and Cleethorpes.

 

Although the East Midlands Trains services include one beyond Sheffield to Manchester and Liverpool, and another that reaches beyond Lincoln to Cleethorpes, they mostly operate further South and certainly don't have the monopoly of the South Yorks area or the South Yorks to Manchester route. Many services in South Yorks are provided (or not) by Northern Rail - Pacers and all.....

 

Yes. But the Liverpool to Newcastle is advertised as The Transpennine Line. When politicians are talking about improving the railway for the Northern Powerhouse they aren't talking about South Yorkshire. They are talking about Liverpool to Newcastle.

 

I also said the line that goes between Manchester and Yorkshire. Not the one that goes to Nottingham via Cheshire.

 

I cba with all this pedantry. You know exactly where I meant and are just trying to be awkward.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited November 10, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[Lecorbusier]

To get away from all this very dreary H&S talk  .......

 

In the spirit of getting away from the dreary  but sticking obliquely with H & S

 

[queensquare]

Yep, a nice, welcome change.

 

G.

 

I think we're wasting our breath Graham!

 

Fabulous modelling, I'm following your London Bridge project on the other thread, very inspirational.

 

Jerry 

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike,

 

Regarding the Western hydraulics, the latest Irwell bookazine (due out now!) features all the varieties. Written by Robert Carroll, it's rather good in my opinion. 

 

I think the signalman's hair at Westwood 'box (Peterborough) would probably have all fallen out on one September day in 1955, when the W1's bogie collapsed underneath it and the massive loco went 'on to the floor' and slid towards his cabin, stopping just short. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Thanks Tony - I'm regularly lurking in WHS awaiting the arrival of that bookazine paper back publication.