Wright writes.....

[davidw]

I think the RRP is an horrendous £69.95.

[westernviscount]

Although I have a thread for both my Airfix 1400 updates and now the layout for which they are intended, I thought I would post a couple of pics of progress so far. 

 

This represents my first steps into modelling a prototype location (hence my posting here given Tony's philosophy). 

1458 which was a mainstay of the Wrexham Ellesmere line. 

The updated 1400 and yet to be touched version posing on their eventual stamping ground. 

[Andy R]

16 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

In answer to your second question, Andy..............

 

With difficulty at times!

 

A few examples............

 

 

 

This was a loco (as with all the following) which came from the estate of a deceased modeller. As it stood (literally), it was a complete dud with respect to its working. It's mainly scratch-built (with a Comet tender). In order to make it 'valuable', I mechanically rebuilt it, and fitted £80.00's worth of DJH motor/gearbox combination; then sold it for £200.00 (my contribution being my time). I couldn't imagine anyone buying it as a non-runner.

 

 

 

Two DJH 'Duchesses'; the top one rather grotty, the bottom one much better. Both ran (the lower one very well), yet I sold them both together for around the cost of a complete unbuilt DJH kit. Could I have got more? Possibly, but I'm not 'in business'. 

 

 

A twin-Portescap-driven LMS Beyer Garratt. I had a potential buyer for this, but only if it were in BR guise..........

 

 

So, I asked Geoff Hanes to do just that; which he did, perfectly. It then made £250.00.

 

 

A selection. By far the most-valuable was the Bradwell J27, being beautifully-built and a lovely runner. The others were 'adequate', and all went to happy homes. 

 

One might have thought that, there being no RTR-equivalent, the D20 might have been the most-desirable, but it wasn't 'top drawer' so to speak. By the way, the moment an RTR equivalent appears, the value of a kit-built loco for the same can plummet (as was the case with the forthcoming G5).

 

 

A bit of a paradox in a way. Not a bad build of a DJH A1, and quite well-painted, but a horror story as a runner- ear defenders being needed!

 

I sold it to a friend (at a low cost because of its poor running - in had three 'speeds'; stationary, fast and even-faster!) and he considered re-motoring it, but decided against it (even though he detailed/weathered it). 

 

So............

 

 

I bought it back off him, rebuilt the frames/pick-ups and installed a new motor. I'm happy to say, it now runs on LB, though it wouldn't have done prior to my 'fixing' it. 

 

Here's my dilemma in a way. I don't have time to mechanically-rebuild so many kit-built locos which pass through my hands (a surprisingly large number [or is it?] which don't run well). Some need no more than a tweak, clean and oil, but, in many cases, a new drive (at least) is required. To factor that sort of cost in (and if I charged for my time!) would make many locos un-saleable. So, I do my best. 

 

 

Another 'problem' loco. Built from a Millholme kit for an A2/2 (Ugh!!!), it's got a banjo dome and a far-too-fat tender. Not only that, it's devoid of much detail and ran poorly. What to do? Hornby had not long released its RTR equivalent, so this went for around £75.00. It really was the best I could hope for, so thanks to a friend for buying it.

 

 

Another 'not so sure'.

 

Who fits banjo domes on to post-War LNER Pacifics? The builder of this SE Finecast A3 did. Not only that, it didn't run that well. 

 

So, off with the dome, fix on a replacement (which Geoff Haynes match-painted perfectly) and then make sure it ran.........

 

 

Perfectly, on Little Bytham. 

 

Not only that.............

 

 

I thought the original front numberplate was poor, so fitted one of Ian Wilson's Pacific types, and Geoff Haynes weathered her beautifully (which he has to be paid for, of course). I also substituted Markits bogie wheels - the originals (don't know their origin) were very fine - too fine for OO. 

 

Why go to all this trouble? Because it makes a loco much more-saleable at a greater price than left as they were (important to widows/distressed families, especially as 10% of all sales goes to CRUK). 

 

The most I've ever got for an individual model.............

 

 

Was £750.00 for this Finney A3 in EM. However, it turned out to be a better-looker than a runner, and has needed more spending on it and a lot of extra work (I feel a bit guilty, though I cannot guarantee the work of others). It's an excellent example of a 'glass case' model, which many kit-built locos I see are best at! 

 

Now, to those models you donated............

 

 

 

 

 

Not having any motors makes them more difficult to sell, though I tried at the weekend; with no success at all! Even reducing the prices to £50.00 for the tender locos and £40.00 for the 94XX, brought no response at all (other than 'If they had motors, I'd buy them straight away' at an increased cost, of course). 

 

I'll try next weekend at Ely. 

 

I hope the above answer some of your queries.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Hi Tony:

I have to say that is a very comprehensive response, beautifully illustrated and with great information. I cannot thank you enough for the generous time and care you take to answer many such queries like this on WW's. You are a busy man indeed!

Yours and the other responses give me guidance into the future, when I next bring some other kit locos across to the UK to sell. Thank you.

With regard to the donated locos, I hope these don't become a 'burden' for you; That was not the intent, instead hoping to generate some money for CRUK. I really hope that happens, thank you for trying.

regards Andy R

 

16 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy R]

3 minutes ago, Andy R said:

 

 

My apologies...seem to have hit wrong button with my earlier reply. Try again.....

 

Tony; thank you for the most comprehensive and informative reply to my query regarding kit built loco values/prices. Yours and other responses will guide me as I try to sell some more in the UK on next visit next summer.

With regard to the donated locos, I really hope these do not become a 'burden' for you. That was not the intent of course; rather to assist in getting further money for CRUK. Ill keep my figures crossed on this and hope they will go to a good home and generate some pounds for CRUK.

regards Andy R

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

So a J6 fitted with a 'Banjo' dome in 1920, would be incorrect ..........even if it was named.

 

Terry. aka manna

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, davidw said:

I think the RRP is an horrendous £69.95.

Good morning David,

 

If so, does that make it the most expensive (standard) RTR carriage ever? I use the word 'standard' to exclude the likes of one-off items such as Observation or Dynamometer Cars, or the all-brass Pullman types produced by the likes of GAM. 

 

It also makes it rather more expensive than an all-brass kit for the same (the opposite of what used to be). 

 

Still, I suppose that's the way things are going; the over-£200.00 steam-outline RTR OO tender loco is now quite common it would seem, so the £250.00 'ceiling' might soon be breached (or has it already?), and Hornby's latest Hornby Dublo die-cast offerings are the 'wrong side' of £300.00 now (out of interest, and I'm sure I've asked this before, I recall my oldest friend buying a BARNSTAPLE in 1961 for £5:19:6, smashing all his piggy banks to achieve this! Does anyone know what the equivalent of that is today, over 60 years later? The only things in common between the two were that both were made of Mazak and both had plastic tenders!). 

 

 

I've just reviewed this in the latest issue if BRM, and it's priced at £320.99. With a limited production run, I'm sure it'll be going mainly to collectors, but it does run superbly and, as expected, is very powerful. 

 

Now, this makes an interesting comparison.................

 

 

Particularly in terms of price. 

 

I built this from a SE Finecast kit, and Ian Rathbone painted it. Though I wouldn't make one now in the same circumstances, I've made several SEF A4s for customers down the years (all professionally-painted), and at today's prices they'd be over three times more than the latest Hornby Dublo one! Nobody would commission one now, because in many ways it's 'inferior' to the RTR equivalent (though definitely not in the paint finish), so why pay so much more? 

 

Other over-£300.00 recent die-cast locos from Hornby Dublo include..............

 

 

A Duchess.

 

 

And an original Merchant Navy.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Andy R said:

My apologies...seem to have hit wrong button with my earlier reply. Try again.....

 

Tony; thank you for the most comprehensive and informative reply to my query regarding kit built loco values/prices. Yours and other responses will guide me as I try to sell some more in the UK on next visit next summer.

With regard to the donated locos, I really hope these do not become a 'burden' for you. That was not the intent of course; rather to assist in getting further money for CRUK. Ill keep my figures crossed on this and hope they will go to a good home and generate some pounds for CRUK.

regards Andy R

Good morning Andy,

 

Those locos you so generously donated are definitely not a burden (in fact, I think I've sold them now). 

 

Going back to kit prices, when I sell a kit-built loco, I do my very best to at least achieve the cost of the components (in kit form), but that is often not achieved. Why not? Because it's dependent on the quality of the build. A not-so-well-built one, with an 'iffy' paint finish and, particularly, an indifferent runner will go for very little - often, even if it's in excess of £300.00 for the parts, such a loco won't even make £100.00! Not even near. Good-looking ones, but poor runners (very, very common) make more, but not much more. I generally sell them to those I know who are capable of stripping them down and making them work to their satisfaction. They know they'll probably need a new drive, but don't count the cost of their 'labours', and they'll end up with a good-looking and good-running loco. 

 

As mentioned by others, those built by an established 'name' will tend to make more, though only if they run well (amazingly, some don't!). I sold several built by the late Graham Varley a year or more ago; they looked good and worked well, and made a reasonable return (though not anywhere near what they would have cost on first being commissioned).

 

Speaking of first being commissioned, a very large percentage of locos from collections, it would seem, were never meant to run, even if fitted with motors. All their lives (until their owners died) have been spent in glass cases!  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micklner]

It would perhaps explain partly Hornby's financial woes (yet again). They obviously have forgotten the pile em up and sell em cheap option.

People simply cant or wont pay £300 plus for a Toy train. I know I would'nt even considered any of the Horby Dublo at the price they are asking (even if they were of any interest).

The limited edition selling point has been done to death. Does Hornby sell anything that is  not a limited edition??, they make so few of everything nowdays including spares .

[davidw]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning David,

 

If so, does that make it the most expensive (standard) RTR carriage ever? I use the word 'standard' to exclude the likes of one-off items such as Observation or Dynamometer Cars, or the all-brass Pullman types produced by the likes of GAM. 

 

It also makes it rather more expensive than an all-brass kit for the same (the opposite of what used to be). 

 

Still, I suppose that's the way things are going; the over-£200.00 steam-outline RTR OO tender loco is now quite common it would seem, so the £250.00 'ceiling' might soon be breached (or has it already?), and Hornby's latest Hornby Dublo die-cast offerings are the 'wrong side' of £300.00 now (out of interest, and I'm sure I've asked this before, I recall my oldest friend buying a BARNSTAPLE in 1961 for £5:19:6, smashing all his piggy banks to achieve this! Does anyone know what the equivalent of that is today, over 60 years later? The only things in common between the two were that both were made of Mazak and both had plastic tenders!). 

 

 

I've just reviewed this in the latest issue if BRM, and it's priced at £320.99. With a limited production run, I'm sure it'll be going mainly to collectors, but it does run superbly and, as expected, is very powerful. 

 

Now, this makes an interesting comparison.................

 

 

Particularly in terms of price. 

 

I built this from a SE Finecast kit, and Ian Rathbone painted it. Though I wouldn't make one now in the same circumstances, I've made several SEF A4s for customers down the years (all professionally-painted), and at today's prices they'd be over three times more than the latest Hornby Dublo one! Nobody would commission one now, because in many ways it's 'inferior' to the RTR equivalent (though definitely not in the paint finish), so why pay so much more? 

 

Other over-£300.00 recent die-cast locos from Hornby Dublo include..............

 

 

A Duchess.

 

 

And an original Merchant Navy.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

The Bullied SR stock is £74.95.  So no the Thompson's aren't quite the most expensive. Even Bachmann mk1s are between 65 and 70. The vehicles are beautiful. But when cost of living is going up, they (models generally) are chasing fewer and fewer buyers. Its also a deterrent for new comers.

Edited May 16, 2023 by davidw

[davidw]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

 

Those locos you so generously donated are definitely not a burden (in fact, I think I've sold them now). 

 

Going back to kit prices, when I sell a kit-built loco, I do my very best to at least achieve the cost of the components (in kit form), but that is often not achieved. Why not? Because it's dependent on the quality of the build. A not-so-well-built one, with an 'iffy' paint finish and, particularly, an indifferent runner will go for very little - often, even if it's in excess of £300.00 for the parts, such a loco won't even make £100.00! Not even near. Good-looking ones, but poor runners (very, very common) make more, but not much more. I generally sell them to those I know who are capable of stripping them down and making them work to their satisfaction. They know they'll probably need a new drive, but don't count the cost of their 'labours', and they'll end up with a good-looking and good-running loco. 

 

As mentioned by others, those built by an established 'name' will tend to make more, though only if they run well (amazingly, some don't!). I sold several built by the late Graham Varley a year or more ago; they looked good and worked well, and made a reasonable return (though not anywhere near what they would have cost on first being commissioned).

 

Speaking of first being commissioned, a very large percentage of locos from collections, it would seem, were never meant to run, even if fitted with motors. All their lives (until their owners died) have been spent in glass cases!  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

With respect to the Hornby Dublo range - my view is that these will appeal for the most part to the collector. In some respects tapping into the market that some of the kit built loco's you've sold on on behalf of grieving families. The Hornby Dublo range are nostalgia items and a way to make as much capital from existing CAD tooling. Quite understandable Hornby, Bachmann and the others are there to make profit and satisfy share holders.

But the cheap days are over in the hobby. A buoyant second hand market is all that helps with stretched pockets. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by davidw

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

The Bullied SR stock is £74.95.  So no the Thompson's aren't quite the most expensive. Even Bachmann mk1s are between 65 and 70. The vehicles are beautiful. But when cost of living is going up, they (models generally) are chasing fewer and fewer buyers. Its also a deterrent for new comers.

‘Cost’ has been done to death in other threads. It is what it is and the manufacturers charge what the market will pay. For what its worth I don’t think the cost of modern Bachmann is outlandish - if I can’t afford (or justify) an item I don’t buy it.  We all have that option. 
 

Myriad items available to the newcomer at all sorts of price points - if someone wants to be a railway modeller they will buy what they can afford. Don’t see someone being deterred from the hobby just because of the price of the latest item of rtr. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by MikeParkin65

[landscapes]

There are still some bargain locomotives for sale from Haymarket including Hornby A4’s.

 

Regards

 

David

[Andy Hayter]

I have to agree with @MikeParkin65.  UK 00 prices are beginning to catch up to those we have had to pay for H0 on the continent for a few years.  If you want the current high level of detail, you pay for it.  If not then Ebay or you model railway trader will have lower quality cast offs from those who can.

[MikeParkin65]

14 minutes ago, landscapes said:

There are still some bargain locomotives for sale from Haymarket including Hornby A4’s.

 

Regards

 

David

Where are you selling them @landscapes? 

[Pint of Adnams]

On 15/05/2023 at 08:37, melmoth said:

 

Something similar apparently happened on the Hemyock branch in Somerset. All the stations were on the same side of the line, so only the station side of the branch set were cleaned. Given the low speed and infrequent train service, the carriages didn't often wander off the branch for servicing, so the two sides weathered differently over quite long periods.

As with the coaching stock on the old Southwold NG Railway, although in this case nothing to do with exposure to the weather but the parsimonious management, deciding that only the platform side - the same at all stations, needed to be repainted. As it happens that was also the seaward side at the Southwold end.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning David,

 

If so, does that make it the most expensive (standard) RTR carriage ever? I use the word 'standard' to exclude the likes of one-off items such as Observation or Dynamometer Cars, or the all-brass Pullman types produced by the likes of GAM. 

 

It also makes it rather more expensive than an all-brass kit for the same (the opposite of what used to be). 

 

Still, I suppose that's the way things are going; the over-£200.00 steam-outline RTR OO tender loco is now quite common it would seem, so the £250.00 'ceiling' might soon be breached (or has it already?), and Hornby's latest Hornby Dublo die-cast offerings are the 'wrong side' of £300.00 now (out of interest, and I'm sure I've asked this before, I recall my oldest friend buying a BARNSTAPLE in 1961 for £5:19:6, smashing all his piggy banks to achieve this! Does anyone know what the equivalent of that is today, over 60 years later? The only things in common between the two were that both were made of Mazak and both had plastic tenders!). 

 

 

I've just reviewed this in the latest issue if BRM, and it's priced at £320.99. With a limited production run, I'm sure it'll be going mainly to collectors, but it does run superbly and, as expected, is very powerful. 

 

Now, this makes an interesting comparison.................

 

 

Particularly in terms of price. 

 

I built this from a SE Finecast kit, and Ian Rathbone painted it. Though I wouldn't make one now in the same circumstances, I've made several SEF A4s for customers down the years (all professionally-painted), and at today's prices they'd be over three times more than the latest Hornby Dublo one! Nobody would commission one now, because in many ways it's 'inferior' to the RTR equivalent (though definitely not in the paint finish), so why pay so much more? 

 

Other over-£300.00 recent die-cast locos from Hornby Dublo include..............

 

 

A Duchess.

 

 

And an original Merchant Navy.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

The Bachmann SECR Birdcage stock are £89.95 RRP each and you need three of them as they only ever worked in sets. Six really as they worked in two sets of three, but they only do one of the two types of centre Composite Lavatory car so you can't make a full set.

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/site/search?q=birdcage

 

Compare that to the Roxey version where they are £61 and you also need the interior detailing pack at £23 and wheels.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/18/4mm-scale-secr-coach-and-van-kits/

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

It would perhaps explain partly Hornby's financial woes (yet again). They obviously have forgotten the pile em up and sell em cheap option.

People simply cant or wont pay £300 plus for a Toy train. I know I would'nt even considered any of the Horby Dublo at the price they are asking (even if they were of any interest).

The limited edition selling point has been done to death. Does Hornby sell anything that is  not a limited edition??, they make so few of everything nowdays including spares .

 

All sold out immediately though. The retailers can't satisfy the demand for them.

 

People said nobody would buy a purple West Country, now selling for £500 upwards on eBay.

 

Even the one that Hattons had which was closer to £600 sold.

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

All sold out immediately though. The retailers can't satisfy the demand for them.

 

People said nobody would buy a purple West Country, now selling for £500 upwards on eBay.

 

Even the one that Hattons had which was closer to £600 sold.

 

 

Jason

The collectors and royal souvenir hunters are welcome to them. 

 

I solemnly promise that no action on my part will ever do anything to increase the prices they are daft enough to pay!

 

John

[Compound2632]

In the Airfix Railway System Feb 1979 price list, coaches were £3.25 each with the exception of the GWR autocoach at £3.75. At the time these were introduced, they represented a great step forward in detail and accuracy of RTR coaches. Using the BoE inflation calculator, that corresponds to about £15 today. For my part, I'm inclined to think that the best current RTR coaches are at least four times better than those Airfix offerings of 44 years ago. Also, I suspect that any manufacturer would struggle to produce carriages equivalent to those Airfix ones for £15 today.*

 

*I know Dapol until recently offered those for which they had the molds at quite low prices, including self-assembly versions, but they didn't have tooling costs to consider.

[micklner]

24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

All sold out immediately though. The retailers can't satisfy the demand for them.

 

People said nobody would buy a purple West Country, now selling for £500 upwards on eBay.

 

Even the one that Hattons had which was closer to £600 sold.

 

 

Jason

https://www.alamy.com/a-fool-and-his-money-are-soon-parted-written-on-black-grungy-stamp-sign-image466226857.html?imageid=FEAB784B-F6EC-42FB-B1C7-D78FEAEA3A26&p=238542&pn=1&searchId=fdab1ad8c5a0a2ebde9fe1a71257324c&searchtype=0

[MJI]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

In the Airfix Railway System Feb 1979 price list, coaches were £3.25 each with the exception of the GWR autocoach at £3.75. At the time these were introduced, they represented a great step forward in detail and accuracy of RTR coaches. Using the BoE inflation calculator, that corresponds to about £15 today. For my part, I'm inclined to think that the best current RTR coaches are at least four times better than those Airfix offerings of 44 years ago. Also, I suspect that any manufacturer would struggle to produce carriages equivalent to those Airfix ones for £15 today.*

 

*I know Dapol until recently offered those for which they had the molds at quite low prices, including self-assembly versions, but they didn't have tooling costs to consider.

 

Forget absolute accuracy for a moment (autocoach diagram confusion, B set extra window, D turnunder and no white lining), but those Airfix coaches were very good, I would put modern ones no more than twice as good.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The collectors and royal souvenir hunters are welcome to them. 

 

I solemnly promise that no action on my part will ever do anything to increase the prices they are daft enough to pay!

 

John

 

But that is the point. It's a choice. Why belittle others that have different tastes?

 

Any worse than paying £1000 plus for a commissioned model? Which according to this thread often don't work and the coaches won't negotiate curves.

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

13 hours ago, davidw said:

I think the RRP is an horrendous £69.95.

Hatton's prices for comparable Hornby coaches are now significantly North of £50 so the RRP will be around £60. Not massively less.

 

Hornby's Mk1s illustrate the direction of travel with a current RRP of £42.49, about double their launch price.

 

John

Edited May 16, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, MJI said:

Forget absolute accuracy for a moment (autocoach diagram confusion, B set extra window, D turnunder and no white lining), but those Airfix coaches were very good, I would put modern ones no more than twice as good.

 

Hmm - the new Rapido B set is advertised at £85 per coach...

 

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby's Mk1s illustrate the direction of travel with a current RRP of £42.49, about double their launch price.

 

Which does illustrate the plain fact that much of the above-average-inflation increase in prices has happened over the last few years, which indicates particular inflationary pressures at work within the sector. What I think one can be fairly confident of is that these price rises are not due to Hornby, Bachmann, etc. extracting increased profit margins. 

[Chas Levin]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

In the Airfix Railway System Feb 1979 price list, coaches were £3.25 each with the exception of the GWR autocoach at £3.75. At the time these were introduced, they represented a great step forward in detail and accuracy of RTR coaches. Using the BoE inflation calculator, that corresponds to about £15 today. For my part, I'm inclined to think that the best current RTR coaches are at least four times better than those Airfix offerings of 44 years ago. Also, I suspect that any manufacturer would struggle to produce carriages equivalent to those Airfix ones for £15 today.*

 

*I know Dapol until recently offered those for which they had the molds at quite low prices, including self-assembly versions, but they didn't have tooling costs to consider.

Interesting comparison Stephen; I'm growing a little sceptical these days however about the accuracy of inflation calculation, by whatever means. It's become such an extraordinarily complex subject that I wonder whether it's possible any more to make these sorts of comparisons meaningfully.

It isn't just about the final price tag stuck on the box in the shop, it's about everything throughout the whole production chain, from the costs of planning and designing the product, the costs of materials, manufacturing and shipping costs and retailing costs - margins, advertising, shop premises costs or bulk warehousing and online shipping, etc.

I don't mean to divert the conversation onto the purely financial, I'm just suggesting that looking at a coach now and one from the 1970s and trying to assess whether we're getting better value for money is a very difficult proposition...