Wright writes.....

[Bucoops]

Qualifier - I'm still a gazillion miles from having a layout.

 

I am planning on going DCC - with computer assistance. The idea being I can switch the automated parts in and out depending on how many people around, and how much I want to actually do myself at the time. I actually quite like the idea of setting up a sequence, pressing "go" and essentially trainspotting in miniature.

 

I'm not totally ruling out sound (the decoders I have chosen have the ability to add sound) but at present it doesn't interest me at all. 

[AndyID]

DC for me, but batteries and radio-control for shunting.

[New Haven Neil]

DC for me, but batteries and radio-control for shunting.

 

I suspect as battery technology improves, battery R/C may well be 'the future'.  It's not far off now although tiny industrial locos may still be quite difficult to fit.

 

Of course, I also have something else Tony probably wouldn't like, due to lack of scale scenery but it is fun when you want to drive trains!  Just to be clear, it's an RTR R/C gas fired live steam loco I painted myself so that probably qualifies it on this page!

 

 

 

Edit - That's not a BR crest, it has the legs of Man on it and the legend reads 'Leodest & Larivane' my garden railway.

Edited November 21, 2018 by New Haven Neil

[Manxcat]

 

Here are two photos to illustrate my recent change of mind so far as control of points and signals by means of an “analogue” control panel or by a DCC mimic panel is concerned.

The first shows my ECoS DCC controller displaying the outer fiddle yard schematic diagram for my pervious layout Fairhaven Road. You will notice each road has a dot roughly in the middle of it. When one of the dots is pressed on the touch sensitive screen it turns yellow to indicate the route chosen and it activates the software which sets all the points for the entrance and exit to that road. They move in turn and when they stop, which does not take long at all, the operator can be sure the entrance and exit for the chosen road is set for entry, exit or run through. My club colleagues and I used it to excellent effect at several shows.

The second photo shows a control panel I built for my club’s DC operated N gauge layout with a main line and a separate branch line. Each fiddle yard road on the main has two sections, to accommodate one train each, hence the plethora of switches for signals, points and sections.

Now let me be clear, I love my ECoS controller. It is an expensive system but IMHO it is absolutely superb. At its last exhibition my club colleagues pointed out that while the touch screen makes it simple to operate in all respects, they did have a hankering for a more hands on panel with individual switches for the signals and points. (Remember with DCC I do not need section switches.)

In my youth I visited, and in some cases operated, over 200 signal boxes and when I pondered what my colleagues had said those experiences weighed on my mind and I started to come round to the same way of thinking. I had even been contemplating the “Train Controller” software which interacts with DCC controlled layouts to operate almost every aspect of the layout automatically if you wish. That was until one good friend said something along the lines of “So you want to arrive at the exhibition, clean the track, press a button and watch the sequence for 7 hours?” Well of course not. That did however make me think and, in the end, I decided that the layout I have recently started would have an “analogue” mimic panel for points and signals. I believe that will give me more of the hands on feel of a signalman and my club colleagues will enjoy showing it with me just that little bit more.

So far as the question of DCC sound is concerned, my first experience of it many years ago was when I heard a sound equipped, O gauge, class 20 loco on a layout called Vine Street. The fact that the sound had been recorded from the prototype and changed with the speed of the loco had me hooked from the start. If you have not heard a 4mm scale model Deltic equipped with a sound chip from DC Kits Legomanbiffo and an “earth mover” speaker then you don’t know how good DCC sound can be. (It is not the same when heard on YouTube I believe. You need to hear it in the flesh so to speak.) Steam sounds are maybe not as good but I do have a 4F chip where the chuffing stops when the control knob is turned to slow the loco down and the chuffs are replaced by a perfect coupling rod clanking sound.  Lesser sound profiles keep the loco chuffing till it stops.

These are just my opinions of course and I know I will never convince everyone.

 

[APOLLO]

Thanks for all the comments.

 

Just one point, if I may, regarding 'model' sound. 

 

I had a chap round yesterday whose job is computer-programming. He knows a lot about DCC. Do you know what pleased me the most when we ran LB? He loved the 'natural' sound that the trains made as they ran. No artificial noise, no electronic gimmickery, just a mechanical 'roar' from the locos (not a whirr-whirr) and an entirely natural ckickety-clack at rail joints. 

 

Who needs DCC sound? 

 

I totally agree. 

 

Last March I bought this loco on ebay -

 

 

Secondhand but as new, pristine in box. She is an Atlas O gauge F9 diesel, twin motors with flywheels AND ------- unbeknown to me (and perhaps the seller also) equipped with a QSI Quantum Titan™ Sound-Decoder - (DC (& DCC) sound). A gift at £200.

 

http://download.atlasrr.com/DCC/User%20Manual%20-%20Atlas%20Gold%20Series%20Diesels%20with%20Quantum%20Titan.pdf

 

On receiving the loco I placed her on the track and turned on the controller - headlamp and flashing "mars" lamps light, loud sounds emanate - engine starts, air brakes hiss and slowly the loco moves and accelerates. Frightened the life out of me !!! I found the above instruction manual on the web - (none in the box -only fault). Would you throw the direction switch at full speed ? - Yes, you do with this loco, it sounds the (loud) horn, A flick back ceases the horn, several quick reversals starts the bell (loud also). All is (thankfully) explained in the manual above.

 

The loco runs nice though, and looks gorgeous with the four "California Zephyr" coaches I bought with her (complete with lights) - though I have to run this lot on a 5 amp controller with a seperate DPDT reversing switch fitted - the house lights dim when she runs !!

 

BUT - as I use DC, sound control is limited - there is no off switch, and it's bl**dy loud - it gets on your nerves after a bit. The thing is loaded with electronics also - so I will leave that alone - way beyond me !.

 

Anyway - though I'm pleased with the loco and her train I don't want anymore sound locos. I bought another nearly new Atlas Alco C425 a while ago, a right ugly bu**er is this loco, again twin flywheel motor fitted but she is very silent running and very powerful - you can hear the clickety clack of the wheels when she pulls a train  of metal wheeled freight cars - very soothing !!

 

 

Brit15

[Tony Wright]

ECoS 1.JPGImage 22A.jpg

 

Here are two photos to illustrate my recent change of mind so far as control of points and signals by means of an “analogue” control panel or by a DCC mimic panel is concerned.

The first shows my ECoS DCC controller displaying the outer fiddle yard schematic diagram for my pervious layout Fairhaven Road. You will notice each road has a dot roughly in the middle of it. When one of the dots is pressed on the touch sensitive screen it turns yellow to indicate the route chosen and it activates the software which sets all the points for the entrance and exit to that road. They move in turn and when they stop, which does not take long at all, the operator can be sure the entrance and exit for the chosen road is set for entry, exit or run through. My club colleagues and I used it to excellent effect at several shows.

The second photo shows a control panel I built for my club’s DC operated N gauge layout with a main line and a separate branch line. Each fiddle yard road on the main has two sections, to accommodate one train each, hence the plethora of switches for signals, points and sections.

Now let me be clear, I love my ECoS controller. It is an expensive system but IMHO it is absolutely superb. At its last exhibition my club colleagues pointed out that while the touch screen makes it simple to operate in all respects, they did have a hankering for a more hands on panel with individual switches for the signals and points. (Remember with DCC I do not need section switches.)

In my youth I visited, and in some cases operated, over 200 signal boxes and when I pondered what my colleagues had said those experiences weighed on my mind and I started to come round to the same way of thinking. I had even been contemplating the “Train Controller” software which interacts with DCC controlled layouts to operate almost every aspect of the layout automatically if you wish. That was until one good friend said something along the lines of “So you want to arrive at the exhibition, clean the track, press a button and watch the sequence for 7 hours?” Well of course not. That did however make me think and, in the end, I decided that the layout I have recently started would have an “analogue” mimic panel for points and signals. I believe that will give me more of the hands on feel of a signalman and my club colleagues will enjoy showing it with me just that little bit more.

So far as the question of DCC sound is concerned, my first experience of it many years ago was when I heard a sound equipped, O gauge, class 20 loco on a layout called Vine Street. The fact that the sound had been recorded from the prototype and changed with the speed of the loco had me hooked from the start. If you have not heard a 4mm scale model Deltic equipped with a sound chip from DC Kits Legomanbiffo and an “earth mover” speaker then you don’t know how good DCC sound can be. (It is not the same when heard on YouTube I believe. You need to hear it in the flesh so to speak.) Steam sounds are maybe not as good but I do have a 4F chip where the chuffing stops when the control knob is turned to slow the loco down and the chuffs are replaced by a perfect coupling rod clanking sound.  Lesser sound profiles keep the loco chuffing till it stops.

These are just my opinions of course and I know I will never convince everyone.

Your opinions are very valid, Archie; my thanks for expressing them. 

 

You're absolutely dead right in your last sentence. As a member of 'everyone', you certainly won't convince me. 

 

As for digital sound, I'd definitely rather leave it than take it. At one show, exhibiting next to a diesel depot layout, the constant throb from the sound-fitted locos really got on everyone's nerves, to the extent that the builders were asked to 'turn it down'. 

 

Sound in general on layouts, I find a real turn-off. Tweeting birds, sirens, church bells, station announcements and so on are just distracting to me. Though sound can add an extra dimension I'm sure, too much is definitely no go IMHO.

 

As for computer systems/screens for controlling layouts, I just cringe. Yes, I'm from the past, but I've seen a few where the computer just says 'no'. Years ago, when this sort of stuff was in its infancy, I was exhibiting next to a (large) layout which was computer-controlled. In the language of the day, it had 'fallen over', and that was that. Nothing ran, and the embarrassed operators merely fiddled with a blank screen. Because the computer wasn't filled with fireworks, the screen just went blank when it stopped working and the humming ceased (unlike in space movies where, because the computers must be filled with fireworks, they explode when they fail). 

 

Another layout I know didn't work very well in analogue-form. Obviously, the builders thought DCC was the panacea for all running ills, so installed. It still doesn't work, but at least the failings require fewer wires to be investigated! 

 

As always, each to their own. I just build a loco, turn a knob/move a slider and away it goes. Since I installed most of the wiring on LB, I understand it (up to a point), and that's that. No faffing around inside loco bodies installing chips (except for the likes of your good self), no extra expense (simple switches and wire costs a lot less than DCC stuff), natural sound (I make my locos run as quietly as possible) and no gazing blankly at a tablet when a loco 'loses its address'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[APOLLO]

Exploding control panels - Now that's a good idea to liven an exhibition up !!

 

 

Brit15

Edited November 21, 2018 by APOLLO

[bbishop]

I did once spend a weekend operating a DCC layout at Warley (Höchstädt) and was very impressed with the ease of control when shunting.  

 

Jamie

 

Thanks Jamie, although you forgot the umlauts.  German O gauge was resurrected by Bernd Lenz, so naturally everything is fitted with DCC.  And it is fun to have the bells, whistles and automatic uncoupling. 

 

Supporters of both systems have justified their choice.  Some layouts are naturally analogue, others digital.  In fact I operate Southwark Bridge, which is analogue and could never be converted to DCC: but one has to be careful where one parks a locomotive - otherwise it will disappear of its own accord. 

 

Jamie mentions the ease of control when shunting on Höchstädt.  But during the shunting procedure, the train locomotive is working its way around the layout to gain the engine shed, and a passenger train will arrive and depart.  This can be achieved without switching from one controller to another - and that to me, ladies and gentlemen, justifies my use of DCC.

 

Bill

[thegreenhowards]

I hope the telling off was just mild chastisement, Andy,

 

LB's operation is fundamentally-different from one-man operation. When Gilbert visited on Monday, because he seems to 'refuse' to operate, I did everything - hence the exercise! I suppose I was lucky that, in over two hours of intensive operation (with a break for lunch) I only forgot to set three roads correctly and only had one (propelled wagon) derailment. I say 'lucky', but it's usual to have no derailments at all in the 51-train cycle of operation. 

 

Compare this with a week ago, when the old gits came to operate. Two drove trains, one was signalman and I operated the fiddle yard. It was immense fun, so thanks chaps - thanks indeed! It was the best running session LB has ever had (we're learning), with almost no (operator) faults, and no derailments, layout or stock problems. Two hours - 51 train movements (including plenty of shunting) - and it just fizzed by. 

 

What does all this 'prove', if anything? That LB was designed for more than one-man operation, and it works? As you (and everyone else) know, I wouldn't touch DCC with a barge pole. Anyway, it would complicate LB's operation to the point of increasing the time to run the sequence by (probably) 100%. How? Let's, say, take the operation of the 'Lizzie'. Three A4s are kitted out with a headboard for that duty - 60014, 60024 and 60027. When it's the time for the non-stop to run, I just follow my instructions, set the road in the fiddle yard and flick a switch. The signalman (it's always a man!), reading his notes, pulls off the Up fast boards, and the driver (reading his), just opens the throttle. There's no faffing around putting the loco's address into some magic gadget. No matter which A4 it is, it just goes - fast! Imagine having to key in 45 locos' addresses, every time - assuming (with failing eyesight) we can see which loco it might actually be. No thanks.

 

And, I still maintain, that running everything off one controller is non-railway-like (old-fashioned railways) and a potential for chaos.

 

When you come next week, we'll drive LB together!

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

Tony,

 

I look forward to running LB next week. I’m sure some more ‘mild chastisement’ will result!

 

I was only trying to point out the potential benefit of macros...not trying to reopen the dreaded DCC/DC debate, but I seemed to have achieved that anyway.

 

I totally accept that DC is the right choice for you and for LB. I’m equally sure that DCC was the right choice for me, with 80-90% DCC ready locos, a much quicker wiring job for the new layout (remember how impatient I can be!) and my love of DCC sound. Each to their own...

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Chamby]

Thanks for all the comments.

 

Just one point, if I may, regarding 'model' sound. 

 

I had a chap round yesterday whose job is computer-programming. He knows a lot about DCC. Do you know what pleased me the most when we ran LB? He loved the 'natural' sound that the trains made as they ran. No artificial noise, no electronic gimmickery, just a mechanical 'roar' from the locos (not a whirr-whirr) and an entirely natural ckickety-clack at rail joints. 

 

Who needs DCC sound?

 

DCC sound needs to be managed properly to work well and yes it can be hugely irritating if poorly used. Just leaving things running all day... it does start to grate on the ears after a surprisingly short time. I often turn sound off when loco’s have got up to speed and just enjoy the ‘clickety clack’. With DCC, sound is not compulsory even when fitted, simply press F1 on the handset! I also adapt each sound file to a volume that is appropriate for a lineside listener. High volume coal shovelling... no thank you!

 

Sound is also less relevant on a layout like LB I suggest.. fast running steam trains on the flat, with the regulator wide open in real life tend to make much of their noise at rail level anyway, and both DC and DCC will give you that. DCC sound comes more into its own when loco’s are taking the strain, moving off, or a slow moving heavy freight on an incline. Some recent sound files are very ‘driveable’ in this regard. Another aspect of DCC sound that is seldom used properly is the whistle - DCC enables you to correctly use the BR standard code of steam whistle signals, an extra layer of prototypical practice that surprisingly few people seem to replicate in model form, is this not just as important as operating signalling... the means by which enginemen communicate back to the signalman. And even with high speed through running, the difference between an A4 chime or A3 whistle at speed can be very evocative and adds emphasis to the operational variety on display.

 

At the end of the day, DCC sound is like most other aspects of our hobby. It has to be done properly. When it is, it can be hugely enjoyable. When it isn’t, which is sadly all too common, it can be really annoying.

 

Phil.

[St Enodoc]

DCC sound needs to be managed properly to work well and yes it can be hugely irritating if poorly used. Just leaving things running all day... it does start to grate on the ears after a surprisingly short time. I often turn sound off when loco’s have got up to speed and just enjoy the ‘clickety clack’. With DCC, sound is not compulsory even when fitted, simply press F1 on the handset! I also adapt each sound file to a volume that is appropriate for a lineside listener. High volume coal shovelling... no thank you!

 

Sound is also less relevant on a layout like LB I suggest.. fast running steam trains on the flat, with the regulator wide open in real life tend to make much of their noise at rail level anyway, and both DC and DCC will give you that. DCC sound comes more into its own when loco’s are taking the strain, moving off, or a slow moving heavy freight on an incline. Some recent sound files are very ‘driveable’ in this regard. Another aspect of DCC sound that is seldom used properly is the whistle - DCC enables you to correctly use the BR standard code of steam whistle signals, an extra layer of prototypical practice that surprisingly few people seem to replicate in model form, is this not just as important as operating signalling... the means by which enginemen communicate back to the signalman. And even with high speed through running, the difference between an A4 chime or A3 whistle at speed can be very evocative and adds emphasis to the operational variety on display.

 

At the end of the day, DCC sound is like most other aspects of our hobby. It has to be done properly. When it is, it can be hugely enjoyable. When it isn’t, which is sadly all too common, it can be really annoying.

 

Phil.

Although I use DCC to drive my trains, I don't use sound. Here's why (not in any particular order):

 

1. It's more expensive than not using sound.

2. It's hard to fit sound to small steam locos.

3. 00 steam sound still doesn't work for me - not enough deep bass (diesels are, in general, better).

4. No change of volume as a train approaches and then recedes.

5. No Doppler effect as a train approaches and then recedes.

6. When I'm at Station A, I don't want to hear trains at Station B which, although it is only a matter of feet way in reality, should be 20 or more miles distant in prototype terms (this also applies to block bells - I don't use those either).

 

I won't tell anyone that they shouldn't use sound, or decry them for so doing, but those are my reasons.

 

Having said all that, I can see some scope for making a loco whistle at appropriate times during shunting movements but I could do that with a simple push button (or a macro!) and a layout-mounted speaker. However, it would still fall under point 6 above.

 

As has been written several times recently, each to their own.

[AndyID]

I suspect as battery technology improves, battery R/C may well be 'the future'.  It's not far off now although tiny industrial locos may still be quite difficult to fit.

 

 

Even if the technology does not improve I'm not averse to coupling a brake van full of batteries to a locomotive, or even a radio-controlled brake van to a passive locomotive - shades of Kitmaster IIRC.

[Clive Mortimore]

Although I use DCC to drive my trains, I don't use sound. Here's why (not in any particular order):

 

1. It's more expensive than not using sound.

2. It's hard to fit sound to small steam locos.

3. 00 steam sound still doesn't work for me - not enough deep bass (diesels are, in general, better).

4. No change of volume as a train approaches and then recedes.

5. No Doppler effect as a train approaches and then recedes.

6. When I'm at Station A, I don't want to hear trains at Station B which, although it is only a matter of feet way in reality, should be 20 or more miles distant in prototype terms (this also applies to block bells - I don't use those either).

 

I won't tell anyone that they shouldn't use sound, or decry them for so doing, but those are my reasons.

 

Having said all that, I can see some scope for making a loco whistle at appropriate times during shunting movements but I could do that with a simple push button (or a macro!) and a layout-mounted speaker. However, it would still fall under point 6 above.

 

As has been written several times recently, each to their own.

Nicely summed up John.

 

Can I add two more reasons why I don't want sound.

Sheffield Exchange is in what the estate agents called the living room. It is my escape from the rest of the world, and when running trains I like to listen to obscure rock music (those who frequent my layout thread will be shaking their heads in agreement). I find a bit of Icelandic darkwave gothic music goes well with a Standard 4 tank hauling a train full of commuters home. I am not alone, many modellers will have background music or the radio on whilst modelling or operating. Far more relaxing than Cuff Cuff or Brumm Brummm, and I am sure if Mrs M was to hear a barrage of train sounds I would be asked to "Shut that (insert your own non RMweb word) row up".

 

The other reason is my small layout Pig Lane (BR Western Region) is my eighth or ninth diesel depot layout. I like a good diesel depot layout, one that reminds me of going around an engine shed when trainspotting. One thing from my memory of such visits was how few would have their engines ticking over unlike as heard on many depot layouts. I like to replicate what I recall not copy the bloke next to me. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Barry O]

Although I use DCC to drive my trains, I don't use sound. Here's why (not in any particular order):

 

1. It's more expensive than not using sound. Agree

2. It's hard to fit sound to small steam locos. Not anymore

3. 00 steam sound still doesn't work for me - not enough deep bass (diesels are, in general, better). Can be sorted

4. No change of volume as a train approaches and then recedes. Depends on the size of the room and scenery around the track.

5. No Doppler effect as a train approaches and then recedes. Available on new sound chips/files

6. When I'm at Station A, I don't want to hear trains at Station B which, although it is only a matter of feet way in reality, should be 20 or more miles distant in prototype terms (this also applies to block bells - I don't use those either). Adjust sounds to suit using a sprog

 

I won't tell anyone that they shouldn't use sound, or decry them for so doing, but those are my reasons.

 

Having said all that, I can see some scope for making a loco whistle at appropriate times during shunting movements but I could do that with a simple push button (or a macro!) and a layout-mounted speaker. However, it would still fall under point 6 above.

 

As has been written several times recently, each to their own.

Bob Harper has a magnificent On3/On2 layout. Without sound and lights you struggle to work out where your train is due to the nature of the layout.

 

Carlisle has sound fitted to some locos. Handy when checking to see if a train is on its way from 30 or 40 feet away.

 

Sound (And dcc) is not for all..but it makes a big difference on some layouts. Without dcc the Liverpool Overhead Railway on Herculaneum Dock would have been very difficult to wire. The MD&HB is now a pleasure to operate having gone dcc. So good you can tie yourself into knots even easier than before!

Baz

[Tony Wright]

Ever get the thought that this thread has a sort of 'Groundhog Day' feel about it?

 

 

Though you may think that you've seen this picture before, it is, in fact, yet another A2/2 I've been commissioned to build. And, as usual, it's built from a DJH kit. Though I've drilled-out the chimneys, this one won't have smoke (unless the motor catches fire!), neither will it have sound or any other appurtenances which the DCC-ites seem to like to fit. 

 

I suppose, having built the prototype model for this kit, built the proving model and built the first production model (and the second and third), I should know what to do, especially as I wrote the instructions as well. 

 

It really is a splendid kit. It'll be yet another WOLF OF BADENOCH, probably the tenth or more one of this name I've put together - equal at least to the THANES OF FIFE (or THANE OF FIFES - we've been here before). Then there are the multiples of COCK O' THE NORTH and MONS MEG, but never EARL MARISCHAL (except in P2 form) or LORD PRESIDENT. I wonder why?

 

 

Here's my own 60506 (the third production build), painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

Interest in a Thompson Pacific RTR in 4mm scale continues to surface from time to time. I suppose it's because they're the last of the 'big green engines', with 'interesting' names which have yet to be available just by 'opening a box'. How did they do in the most-recent poll? 

 

Edited because I've now straightened-up 60506's lamps!

Edited November 22, 2018 by Tony Wright

[LNERandBR]

Personally I think the whole DCC vs DC and Sound vs No Sound debates are superfluous.

 

The options are completely subjective and there is no 'wrong' answer. Everyone is entitled to choose what they want to use for control and in many cases you will not change their minds. They use what they understand and more importantly what works for them and they are comfortable with.

 

Meanwhile, sound is extreamly subjective. To one person its brilliant whilst to others it's just plain wrong. Even differences in the various sound decoders of the same locomotive types. One producer's class 37 can sound completely different to another's. Then to one person one sounds right whilst to another person the other project is right. Again it's what people like and are most comfortable with that is important.

 

I personnaly have gone down the DCC and sound route. Steam sound is improving and having a terminus station layout means the locos dont get up enough speed to start sounding wrong.

Meanwhile I also have a diesel depot layout but always try to only have one loco running at a time. I want people to hear the indrevidual sound decodes. Not a continual and annoying throbbing.

 

One challenge with volumes on sound layouts is the difference in ambient noise in an exhibition hall compared to ones home. A loco can sound brilliant at home but be inaudible at an exhibition. It's a challenging juggaling act to get the volume levels correct.

[APOLLO]

Some folks dislike A2/2 saying Thompson ruined fine locos - that may be but I really like the small smoke deflectors on each side of the chimney on these locos, they give a certain look of power to the locomotive. Wasn't a V2 fitted with them also, I seem to remember ?

 

Sound-- I've only ever seen one sound layout I really enjoyed, years ago at Wigan Exhibition. It was a North American logging railroad with shays, heislers etc (unique steam logging locos with multiple cylinders). The sound wasn't loud but that and smoking locos were excellent. What gave this layout its appeal was that it was a walkround circular layout, tall also with lots of vertical scenery, you could hear the hard working locos a few seconds before they rounded the curves and came into view. The operator stood outside the layout with a (large) handheld control box. It was a show stopper - can't remember it's name though.

 

Brit15

[Tony Wright]

Personally I think the whole DCC vs DC and Sound vs No Sound debates are superfluous.

 

The options are completely subjective and there is no 'wrong' answer. Everyone is entitled to choose what they want to use for control and in many cases you will not change their minds. They use what they understand and more importantly what works for them and they are comfortable with.

 

Meanwhile, sound is extreamly subjective. To one person its brilliant whilst to others it's just plain wrong. Even differences in the various sound decoders of the same locomotive types. One producer's class 37 can sound completely different to another's. Then to one person one sounds right whilst to another person the other project is right. Again it's what people like and are most comfortable with that is important.

 

I personnaly have gone down the DCC and sound route. Steam sound is improving and having a terminus station layout means the locos dont get up enough speed to start sounding wrong.

Meanwhile I also have a diesel depot layout but always try to only have one loco running at a time. I want people to hear the indrevidual sound decodes. Not a continual and annoying throbbing.

 

One challenge with volumes on sound layouts is the difference in ambient noise in an exhibition hall compared to ones home. A loco can sound brilliant at home but be inaudible at an exhibition. It's a challenging juggaling act to get the volume levels correct.

'Sound' words, Stephen,

 

Your comments about the noise in an exhibition hall are entirely pertinent, at least with regard to how 'quietly' locomotives' mechanisms run. 

 

Irrespective of the debates either side of digital sound (and it is a juggling act), every locomotive mechanism I build has to run as 'quietly' as possible. By that, I mean no whirr-whirrings, no squeaks from pick-ups and no whine (that's why I'm not a fan of Portescaps). I'm entirely happy with the mechanical 'clatter' of a heavy loco, travelling fast over pointwork (the real things weren't quiet, after all), but not the synchronised change of note with every revolution, caused by ill-fitting gears. Occasionally, I'll make one which, though tolerable, still displays an irritating 'noisiness'. The cure? Take it to a show and run it there - it's totally silent; until it's brought back home! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Some folks dislike A2/2 saying Thompson ruined fine locos - that may be but I really like the small smoke deflectors on each side of the chimney on these locos, they give a certain look of power to the locomotive. Wasn't a V2 fitted with them also, I seem to remember ?

 

Sound-- I've only ever seen one sound layout I really enjoyed, years ago at Wigan Exhibition. It was a North American logging railroad with shays, heislers etc (unique steam logging locos with multiple cylinders). The sound wasn't loud but that and smoking locos were excellent. What gave this layout its appeal was that it was a walkround circular layout, tall also with lots of vertical scenery, you could hear the hard working locos a few seconds before they rounded the curves and came into view. The operator stood outside the layout with a (large) handheld control box. It was a show stopper - can't remember it's name though.

 

Brit15

Might it have been this one - Purgatory Peak? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Members of the Wigan Group were operating it in 2016 at Glasgow.

 

One V2, 60813, had a sort of 'half-moon' deflector behind its stovepipe chimney. Whether it worked or not, nobody seems to be sure, but, as an exercise in aesthetics, it failed! 

[St Enodoc]

Bob Harper has a magnificent On3/On2 layout. Without sound and lights you struggle to work out where your train is due to the nature of the layout.

 

Carlisle has sound fitted to some locos. Handy when checking to see if a train is on its way from 30 or 40 feet away.

 

Sound (And dcc) is not for all..but it makes a big difference on some layouts. Without dcc the Liverpool Overhead Railway on Herculaneum Dock would have been very difficult to wire. The MD&HB is now a pleasure to operate having gone dcc. So good you can tie yourself into knots even easier than before!

Baz

That's fair comment Baz. With certain layouts DCC sound does make sense, for example the NYC 0 gauge empire you visited earlier this year. For the benefit of other readers, this is housed in a shed 75 ft x 55 ft and in typical American style twists and turns several times on its way around. You often need to sound the whistle to find out where your train is. Of course, being American 0 gauge there is plenty of room for decent bass speakers in the locos - and speeds are generally low so Doppler is not a problem.

[BMacdermott]

 

Interest in a Thompson Pacific RTR in 4mm scale continues to surface from time to time. I suppose it's because they're the last of the 'big green engines', with 'interesting' names which have yet to be available just by 'opening a box'. How did they do in the most-recent poll? 

 

 

Hello Tony

 

For 'completeness', below is how the A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 have fared in The Wishlist Polls since 2013 (we didn't run in 2017). We split the results up into roughly equal segments for ease of comparison across the years (High, Middle and Low Polling). None were in The Top 50.

 

A2/1

2013 - Low

2014 - Low

2015 - Low

2016 - Middle

2018 - Middle - but now at the upper end

 

A2/2

2013 - Middle

2014 - Middle

2015 - Middle

2016 - Middle

2018 - High - but at the lower end

 

A2/3

2013 - Middle

2014 - Middle - but at the upper end

2015 - Middle - but still at the upper end

2016 - High - but towards the lower end

2018 - High - but has moved up towards the middle of the segment

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

Edited November 22, 2018 by BMacdermott

[Mike 84C]

Tony, It was good to talk with you at Ruskington on Sunday last, you told me things about the P2's that I did not know. In case the message has not got to you yet we raised £1600 for the Lincs and Notts  Air Ambulance. So a big thank you to all who attended.

      Mick Whittle.

[APOLLO]

I've had a look at 60813 on google and agree it does nothing for the V2's looks (that chimney is awful also).

 

 

 I do remember the above fine layout from a couple of years ago. though it's not the one I remember. It was quite a while ago - I'll dig out my old exhibition guides.

 

Thanks for posting the above photos.

 

Brit15

[Chamby]

It is an interesting observation that the latest sound file from Locoman (usual disclaimer) is for an A4, and he has included a playable doppler effect for the chime.  Things are developing all the time in this still relatively new field of the hobby.

 

It is fair to say that those of us investing in sound fitted loco's have the same challenges and frustrations as many other aspects of the hobby.  It is easy to fit sound these days... but it takes a real skill, patience and a 'good ear' to do it well, and inevitably there are limitations as to what can be achieved.  There are very few sound products that you can just plug in and play, and get a top quality result.  You usually need to fettle and refine the chip settings to get it right - things like matching the chuff rate to wheel rotation, carefully balancing the volumes of different sound effects, and a careful choice of speaker with enough bass to give the deep chuff, but taking care not to lose the higher frequency hiss.  With many sound products it is a labour of love to get a satisfactory result.  So similar to kit building, in some respects!

 

Needless to say, the majority of annoying sound that you will observe at exhibitions will be 'plug in and play' versions.  They will probably be on locomotives with plastic coal and the wrong lamps fitted (if any)... so please look at the fidelity of the model as a whole before making a judgement call on the use of sound.

 

Phil.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Chamby

[LNERandBR]

'Sound' words, Stephen,

 

Your comments about the noise in an exhibition hall are entirely pertinent, at least with regard to how 'quietly' locomotives' mechanisms run.

 

Irrespective of the debates either side of digital sound (and it is a juggling act), every locomotive mechanism I build has to run as 'quietly' as possible. By that, I mean no whirr-whirrings, no squeaks from pick-ups and no whine (that's why I'm not a fan of Portescaps). I'm entirely happy with the mechanical 'clatter' of a heavy loco, travelling fast over pointwork (the real things weren't quiet, after all), but not the synchronised change of note with every revolution, caused by ill-fitting gears. Occasionally, I'll make one which, though tolerable, still displays an irritating 'noisiness'. The cure? Take it to a show and run it there - it's totally silent; until it's brought back home!

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

Noisy mechanisms is also an issue for DCC sound. Why spend the money, time and effort fitting the decoder and speaker if the gearing is noisy?

 

I've got a few class 20s at the moment that have developed a grating noise when moving. Stripped one down completey, cleaned all the gears and reapplied lubrication as I reassembled. It now runs lovely and quiet again.

 

Just got its friend to do now