Wright writes.....

[micklner]

I think you're right, Mick, with regard to Thompson's contribution being more interesting to modellers.

 

I'd definitely say that Peter Townend is a recognised author, and it's right that the only class of loco to time the cement block train was an A2/3. But, then, shouldn't it have been able to? Compared with the (single chimney) V2s and 9Fs, the A2/3 was a much more powerful loco. Had an A2, or an A1, been tried on the train, I'm sure they'd have handled it very competently. As would a double chimney A3 and an A4. 

 

And, 60113 was probably better at steaming than a single chimney A3 or A4, but it wasn't as good as a double chimney example of both classes. Hence my point; why waste valuable resources on rebuilding (actually new-building) a loco when all that was needed was a double Kylchap. The question also arises; why did it take so long to fit double Kylchaps to all the Pacifics (with the exception of some A2s)? 

 

As for venomous rumours or spite regarding Thompson's big locos, its been my privilege to get to know the sons of men who were responsible for their running. Geoff Lund at Haymarket almost lost his job because of his objections to the P2s' rebuilding, and, yet, he was vindicated when the wretched A2/2s were moved from the Aberdeen road because of their propensity to slip (something unheard of with the locos they once were). Jack Somers, shedmaster at New England, reckoned the Thompson big-things were appalling things to work on and keep running. And, contrary to some rumours, if the independent, middle valve gear failed on a Thompson/Peppercorn Pacific it rendered the loco a complete failure (witness TORNADO recently), whereas the Gresley gear tended to carry on. 

 

I think the name of ET will always be controversial in railway circles. In fairness, he should be praised for his B1 and O1 (and O4/8?), but the rest of his locos were rather lack-lustre. Other than the B1, O1 (and the J11/3?), none of his locos, rebuilds or new, superseded its predecessors. Even when he built a new loco such as the A2/3, as soon as he'd gone, the design for the next A2 was changed, and the Peppercorn A1s were very different from the A1/1. What remained from his ideas with regard to the later Pacifics? The independent inside valve gear. That's all, apart from the bogie, which wasn't good. The boilers and double Kylchap were Gresley features. Equal-length connecting rods were abandoned, as was the round dome and the flat-fronted cab, and also the inelegant front end. Had the Thompson Pacifics been any good, we'd have had 50 A1/1s and 30 A2/3s. Not so.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.    

 

Tony

 

Some points.

 

Cement Trains. Why was the A2/3 used as there were far more of the other classes available at the time . It must I presume, have had some king of special quality for it to been regularly use on those trains.  Or perhaps they were only used as no one wanted them for other duties? All Pacifics obviously should have been capable of pulling the Train.

 

GN so I have read elsewhere was due for a Heavy repair and was the only A1/A3 available at the time . Whether a timely excuse/spite to use GN or a valid reason who again is alive, who  actually knows? Double chimneys? too expensive to fit to the whole fleet as perhaps Patent payments still had to be made for each usage?

 

As for actual and or rumoured spite/ venom etc  peoples sons not the actual persons opinions are being referred to, all stories change each time they are told on. Events from the mid 1940's are now over in the region of 80 years old, I have read stories of Draughtsmen drawing alternative drawings for Peppercorn Pacifics during Thompson's reign and ignoring what they should have been drawing , it doesn't sound hardly a happy ship at the time. The stories have grown in strength/exaggeration in the 80 plus years since none of which are normally favourable. Its there any actual documented proof of what actually happened at the time?

 

As said in earlier above posts the P2 sadly as much as they were beautiful Locos, they had a very potential deadly flaw i.e Crank axle failures. The technology of the day was nothing like today and perhaps again they simply didn't know how to cure the problem. Another small class of Loco which needed something had to be done for safety reasons if nothing else. Total rebuild was perhaps a step too far ,and there was no logic in the way Thompson designed a Loco around the coupling rods either !!

 

I doubt Peppercorn was a friend of Thompson, and had little to zero incentive to continue any of Thompson's designs good of bad.  How many designs of any Locos have been carried over from one CME to a successor without modification?. No CME would want to be remembered for using someones else designs.

 

Thompson suffered very badly from inheriting the CME role due to Gresley's untimely death in office. With his apparent attitude to staff and some bizarre reasoning relating to most of his design decisions, he was never going to be a major star.

 

Mick

[Chamby]

Fortunately as modellers, we don’t have the same problems with crank axles. So the P2 remains a beautiful locomotive to have in the stud. The implications for us remain however, regarding the consequences of said axles, if that indeed was the reason their operational sphere was restricted to north of Edinburgh, in the real world. It’s a good job we have rule 1, then, at least when nobody is looking!

 

Edit: double post.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Chamby

[Headstock]

Fortunately in the real world, the LNER didn't need the P2s. The A3s, and the A4s were brilliant engines and the V2s were just the most awesome locomotives in the LNER stud.

[Buhar]

Gresley ? Thompson ? NOTHING beats a Stanier Duchess storming up Beattock !!

 

I was watching this superb & recently published video last night. Just how do we model this ?

Brit15

 

Thanks for linking to that.  David (Linesider) creates some excellent videos and usually finds superb vantage points.  Some of them certainly involve some trecking.

[Barry O]

All the arguments regarding Thompson reminds me why I model London Midlad Region....

[Headstock]

Nothing much of excitement to report on the LM after James Anderson departed in 1932. Though it took Billy Stannier a while to work out how to plug his kettle in.

[Northmoor]

Thanks for linking to that.  David (Linesider) creates some excellent videos and usually finds superb vantage points.  Some of them certainly involve some trecking.

We should start a campaign for one of the TV channels to reintroduce "The Interval" and as well as the obvious subjects like swallows swarming, for a couple of Linesider's videos to be used.  

 

I would nominate for inclusion his recordings of 71000 on Beattock in winter and 48151 clearing Ais Gill summit.  They make the hairs stand on the back of your neck.

[St Enodoc]

Brings to mind the day I pointed my trusty old Zenit E (remember them?) through the mist at this. 

 

46229 CMP 12Mar83.jpg

 

Selside on the S&C 12 March1983. 46229 with, I think, 13 on. I expect the ground is still shaking now... 

I got a Zenit E as an 18th birthday present!

[St Enodoc]

I'd definitely say that Peter Townend is a recognised author

... and through his professional situation he knew whereof he spoke/wrote. He was at the tail end of his career as I was starting mine and I was lucky enough to meet him regularly in the early 1980s. A fine fellow.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Just a small matter, whilst talking 2-8-2's, the P1, it hauled up to 1,800 tons, did they ever 'crack' an axle ????

 

manna

[AndyID]

G'Day Folks

 

Just a small matter, whilst talking 2-8-2's, the P1, it hauled up to 1,800 tons, did they ever 'crack' an axle ????

 

manna

 

Perhaps they did. The crank offset (13") was the same as the P2 but the P1 had smaller drivers which would make it less likely.

 

Andy

[Jesse Sim]

Afternoon Tony,

 

 

You asked for photos of the kitbuilt D2 I purchased.

 

Here she is, I think she’s been built wonderfully, although she tends to lean forward, making the rear driving wheel sit higher of the rail, how can I remedy that?

 

I’ll be looking into fitting her with a chip, hopefully not that difficult and hoping I can fix the problem of her leaning forward.

 

 

Jesse

[St Enodoc]

Afternoon Tony,

 

 

You asked for photos of the kitbuilt D2 I purchased.

 

Here she is, I think she’s been built wonderfully, although she tends to lean forward, making the rear driving wheel sit higher of the rail, how can I remedy that?

 

I’ll be looking into fitting her with a chip, hopefully not that difficult and hoping I can fix the problem of her leaning forward.

 

 

Jesse

Jesse, I would try two things:

 

1. See if you can get more weight into the boiler/firebox area between the driving wheels. The loco looks to be nose-heavy.

 

2. Try modifying the tender and tender coupling so that some of the tender's weight is pressing down on the rear of the loco.

 

Bring it to Collaroy Plateau next Saturday. There will be plenty of "experts" there who will be glad to offer you advice. Some of it might even be worth taking...

[Jesse Sim]

Jesse, I would try two things:

 

1. See if you can get more weight into the boiler/firebox area between the driving wheels. The loco looks to be nose-heavy.

 

2. Try modifying the tender and tender coupling so that some of the tender's weight is pressing down on the rear of the loco.

 

Bring it to Collaroy Plateau next Saturday. There will be plenty of "experts" there who will be glad to offer you advice. Some of it might even be worth taking...

 

What’s the what next Saturday?

 

 

I thought maybe a washer or something on the leading axle. As it looks like the reason it’s nose beau because it has nothing to hold it up...does that make sense.

[St Enodoc]

What’s the what next Saturday?

 

 

I thought maybe a washer or something on the leading axle. As it looks like the reason it’s nose beau because it has nothing to hold it up...does that make sense.

BRMA meeting at the NSRMA clubrooms - Rod sent out a reminder earlier today.

 

My guess is it's pivoting on the leading axle and going nose-down because there's more weight at the front than the back. 4-4-0s are tricky in this regard. Not sure that packing with washers would help much.

 

Anyway, someone who knows more about what they're talking about than I do should be along soon...

[uax6]

Can you get some lead between the frames at the rear and over the rear axle? That will hopefully bring it down.

 

Andy G

[St Enodoc]

Anyway, someone who knows more about what they're talking about than I do should be along soon...

 

Can you get some lead between the frames at the rear and over the rear axle? That will hopefully bring it down.

 

Andy G

Told you!

[Jesse Sim]

Can you get some lead between the frames at the rear and over the rear axle? That will hopefully bring it down.

 

Andy G

I’ll convert her to DCC first then worry about some weight, surely some weight will hold her down.

[St Enodoc]

I’ll convert her to DCC first then worry about some weight, surely some weight will hold her down.

As long as it's in the right place, as Andy suggests.

[uax6]

And improve traction.....

 

Andy G

[Hollar]

Thanks Brian,

 

 

 

Interestingly, according to the poll, the A2/3 seems to be growing in popularity (?). Is it because of the names? If one discounts the titular first one, and the last, their names are rather splendid. The likes of DANTE at the head of a heavy train really sounds good. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

If you swung Dante round LB a few times flat out with the heaviest train it could manage, would it reach the 7th circle?

 

Tone

[jamie92208]

And improve traction.....

 

Andy G

 

You could probably line the firebox with thin lead sheet.   And as mentioned above any areas between the frames at the back that can be filled with lead won't do any harm.

 

Jamie

[jrg1]

You could probably line the firebox with thin lead sheet.   And as mentioned above any areas between the frames at the back that can be filled with lead won't do any harm.

 

Jamie

Consider a Spring on the bogie pin

[Headstock]

G'Day Folks

 

Just a small matter, whilst talking 2-8-2's, the P1, it hauled up to 1,800 tons, did they ever 'crack' an axle ????

 

manna

 

Evening Mana,

 

I'm not aware of any crank axle failures on the P1. Remember that the P2 had a higher axel loading than the P1, and could deliver a higher tractive force to the crank pin than any other conventional British steam loco. If you are incredibly surefooted and can produce high levels of torque, you had better have a strong crank axle, as extreme force applied is less likely to be dissipated by slipping.

 

The P1 had a booster engine supplying and extra 8000 pounds or so of tractive effort to start the heaviest trains. The heaviest trains were few and far between and the gradients were generally easier on a line was comparatively straight in comparison to the Aberdeen route.

[Theakerr]

Thks for the feedback on my bargain A2 kit.  The kit contains two double chimneys so I think it will eventually become Sugar Palm, a York loco all its life.  No special reason for this name except it appears to be the most photogenic of the non Scots based locos.  Did DJS ever make the frames substantial.  I had to rework the frames because they were more than a little out of alignment and even my 80W iron couldn't get them unsoldered.  Ended up using a mini butane torch.  Anyway now back together and waiting to find someone who can drill out the axel holes because my old cheap vertical drip has a bit of runout and the existing holes are a bit of a mess.  Some are as supplied by DJH and apparently do not need bushings, the wheels axels fitting straight into the frame.  Two have been drilled out and have had bushing put in.  I will drill them all out and put in bushings