Wright writes.....

[queensquare]

 

 

Looking at the list of demonstrators, there was some considerable expertise on hand for scenic modelling and basic techniques, but no one was demonstrating building of locos or rolling stock in 4mm or 7mm as far as I can see. Surprising for such a large exhibition, surely.

 

Jol

I was doing it in 2mm, I have a small pile of rough sketches I did whilst trying to explain how I carried out particular operations.

 

Jerry

[richard i]

Tony has beaten me to it and I would agree that it's partly the economics of running a model shop or specialist kit/bits supplier business today coming into play. It used to be possible to go into a local model shop and buy kits and bits thirty years or so ago, but the impact of the box shifters put many out of business and changed the face of modelling from something you made to something you buy, for the majority of "modellers". Increasingly the visitor "profile" at many model railway exhibitions is changing so for a specialist supplier, some shows are no longer financially viable. Likewise some clubs have a RTR culture and the expertise/guidance for model making isn't there. 

 

If you want to make models it isn't too difficult to identify shows where the specialist suppliers and relevant demos take place. Outside the 4mm Society shows, York MRS, Railex and others provide that. What is missing is the desire to build your own model, to create something different, uniquely yours. "I couldn't do that" is something I hear too often but people aren't willing to even try. The concentration by the media on RTR products also doesn't help, so the hobby is steadily continuing to divide into two sectors. Those that decide what they want to model, research it and learn how to create what they want, and those that prefer to model what others decide to make (not withstanding polls, wishlists, etc.). 

 

Good for Steve Flint and RM in asking Tony to write an article "challenging" attitudes to what modelling is about (I hope I've got that right, I haven't read it). From the comments about the responses on FB it seemed to rock the boat a bit. Whether those who were upset will ever see beyond the pages of the latest Bachmann or Hornby catalogue is a different matter.

More importantly was the article on how to build the j6 proving it is possible and where to get bits. As a youngster I wanted to get started in kit building but was put off by the adverts saying, “ needs wheels and motor to complete” . I had no idea where to get them and no one to ask as I knew no other modelers. .........and then I met Tony and the others in WMRS, the rest is history.

Richard

[grahame]

I was doing it in 2mm, I have a small pile of rough sketches I did whilst trying to explain how I carried out particular operations.

 

 

Yes, I'm not sure why only 4mm and 7mm was mentioned. I'd have thought that demonstrative modelling techniques like cutting, gluing, filing, soldering, etc., are necessary and applicable to all scales. 

 

G.

[Northmoor]

Finally, it's up to the likes of me to support those who wish to take their hobby beyond just the ability to buy RTR, to help them by showing them techniques/methods/dodges for improving their models, to offer encouragement and guidance where I can and to ultimately (I hope) give them the opportunity to say 'I made that'. I've said on many occasions, there is a good deal of skill in personalising RTR items, and those who do such things are just as much 'modellers' as anyone in my book. I despair, though, at those who won't even try. 

I don't remember the same froth and bluster when not so many years ago, Dennis Lovett at Bachmann wrote a similar opinion piece in the RM.  He said that how no matter which variant of a model they made, people contacted Bachmann and complained it wasn't the exact number they wanted; he asked why people seemed so unwilling to make such minor changes as renumbering, themselves and wondered what ever had happened to "modelling".

[Arun Sharma]

At #31325 Jol Wilkinson wrote,"If you want to make models it isn't too difficult to identify shows where the specialist suppliers and relevant demos take place. Outside the 4mm Society shows, York MRS, Railex and others provide that. What is missing is the desire to build your own model, to create something different, uniquely yours. "I couldn't do that" is something I hear too often but people aren't willing to even try. The concentration by the media on RTR products also doesn't help, so the hobby is steadily continuing to divide into two sectors. Those that decide what they want to model, research it and learn how to create what they want, and those that prefer to model what others decide to make (not withstanding polls, wishlists, etc.). 

 

Good for Steve Flint and RM in asking Tony to write an article "challenging" attitudes to what modelling is about (I hope I've got that right, I haven't read it). From the comments about the responses on FB it seemed to rock the boat a bit. Whether those who were upset will ever see beyond the pages of the latest Bachmann or Hornby catalogue is a different matter."

 

I agree pretty much with all of that but would note the sentence beginning, "The Concentration by the media..... " In the days of Scale Trains, Model Railway Constructor, Model Railway News and indeed currently in Railway Modeller, the reader was presented with an issue full of practical ideas for RTR conversion as well as scale drawings of buildings, rolling stock and locomotives so that anyone could individualise [is that a word?] their modelling. There was never any excuse or reason to say that the source material and preliminary information for a project wasn't there.

 

Whilst it is true that the internet can assist with finding information and pictures on a loco, rolling stock or structure, you would be hard pushed to find the level of detail that you might need to construct say, the still extant level crossing keeper's house at Brockenhurst other than in the relevant issue of RM [Feb 78 if interested!]

For the modeller who wants to build things that don't come in packets, with the notable exception of RM, the modern day crop of magazines are actually not terribly helpful. 

 

Speaking to Dibber 25 [CJL], part of the reason for the dearth of drawings appears to be the seeming lack of demand and also the lack of folk willing or indeed able to [accurately] draw them - In some respects this is a circular argument. If there are no drawings, folk won't think of asking for them as we have got into a rather unfortunate habit of expecting instant gratification. 

However, many of us model artifacts from a past period and would be perfectly content with reissued drawings from ST, MRC, MRN et al as long as they were updated with newer photographs and details. So I for one would like to see more articles in the model railway press containing scale drawings and how to produce models from them - whether as etches, from plasticard, a basis for 3D design or even from Corn Flakes packets.

[Arun Sharma]

Still trying to shake of a cold, one day was enough Martin.

 

The amount of business that LRM does at a show like Stevenage doesn't need two people to run the stand, so to save myself the cost of a hotel I went home so I could spend Sunday doing something more productive. The show, while having a well regarded selection of layouts and traders, doesn't seem to attract a large number of model makers. I was able to spend some time after lunch buying items I wanted and chatted to a number of the other "specialist" traders I have come to know over the years. Two said they were unlikely to  attend next year as it wasn't viable.

 

Looking at the list of demonstrators, there was some considerable expertise on hand for scenic modelling and basic techniques, but no one was demonstrating building of locos or rolling stock in 4mm or 7mm as far as I can see. Surprising for such a large exhibition, surely.

 

Jol

Such activities were in fact taking place on stand 96 - the DEMU society stand.

[Jol Wilkinson]

What about me? 

 

And thanks, Jol, for your most-generous donation to CRUK. 

 

Tony. 

Tony,

 

happy to help your fund raising for CRUK..

 

As your stand was described as "loco clinic" on the website (we weren't given a Show Guide as a trader), I presumed you would be mainly fixing locos than showing how to build them.

 

I was doing it in 2mm, I have a small pile of rough sketches I did whilst trying to explain how I carried out particular operations.

 

Jerry

As I have told you before Gerry, when you grow up, we'll let you do 4mm. 

 

Yes, I'm not sure why only 4mm and 7mm was mentioned. I'd have thought that demonstrative modelling techniques like cutting, gluing, filing, soldering, etc., are necessary and applicable to all scales. 

 

G.

Very  true Grahame, but again the website didn't specifically mention loco construction, wagon, building, etc. as specific demos. I am inclined to think that would be more likely to attract someone who might be interested in starting off building a kit. Until you see someone building a plastic wagon kit, for example, you may not know what basic techniques are involved and what to look for.

[Tony Wright]

I don't remember the same froth and bluster when not so many years ago, Dennis Lovett at Bachmann wrote a similar opinion piece in the RM.  He said that how no matter which variant of a model they made, people contacted Bachmann and complained it wasn't the exact number they wanted; he asked why people seemed so unwilling to make such minor changes as renumbering, themselves and wondered what ever had happened to "modelling".

Many thanks,

 

I've written about some simple detailing/renumbering/renaming techniques for Dennis, which went into Bachmann Times. He, and others, puzzled as to why some folk didn't seem to be able to do any 'modelling'. Yet, a few (a large 'few') then (as you describe) went on to complain that the particular manifestation of the loco/carriage/wagon they wanted was not made by Bachmann (or Hornby, or Dapol, or whoever.....). They couldn't change its identity and couldn't afford to have someone do it for them, so it was if their human rights were being violated! It beats me why such types indulge in what should be a creative hobby. 

 

Which rather leads me to believe that perhaps the 'church' is too broad. Though I'd defend the right of anyone to have whatever they like and enjoy a hobby in anyway they like (as long as it doesn't impact on anyone else in a wholly-destructive way), where is there any commonality between one who just moans and complains as to why his/her choice of loco is not available out-of-the-box and the guy/girl who changes it for themselves? Other than a love of trains? That, I think, is the only link. 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe any of the three 'conversions' of Bachmann steam-outline locos shown above should be beyond anyone who professes to be a 'railway modeller'. I described these in the hope they'd be useful to folk contemplating such 'detailing' for themselves. Yet, if recent electronic correspondence is to be believed (I must be careful because I've not seen it), it would seem to be thought by some (many?) that I'm 'hostile' to RTR and elitist in the extreme. Hostile and elitist to be, right now, actively helping three RTR manufacturers (in a tiny way, I admit) with the development of new models? Poacher turned gamekeeper?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Tony Wright

[Clive Mortimore]

I had to go into Louth today and fell into WH Smifffs and came out with a copy of the offending Railway Modeller. First article I read was my friends', George and Nobby have done a good job with Towcester and I liked George's ramblings reasoning why they set a real place in a time period when it had already lost is railway, and making it sound convincing.

 

Next I read Tony's essay. Next time Tony gives me some advice I will do as he says "Treat any advice given by self-proclaimed 'experts' with a degree of suspicion and check and verify it for yourself". Having read the early posts on faceache  Friday morning , I don't think the few that read Tony's article had got that far because if they had they would have gone of and checked to see if he was correct before posting.

Now to disappear into the room nobody disturbs me in to finish reading it.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[jamie92208]

I think you're dead right, Phil,

 

The demise of the 'proper' model shop has been mentioned before. The same question keeps on coming up as to why they disappeared. As Clive Mortimer has so rightly pointed out, a shop won't stock what it can't sell. 

 

Years ago, I'd often travel to Reading to visit EAMES there. I could go into that great shop, chat to Bob Treacher, and come out with all the parts to either scratch-build or kit-build a loco or carriages. I'd do the same at Kings Cross, where Bert Collins would often be in there. 43 years ago, all the bits to scratch-build GREAT NORTHERN went to Paris with us, where we spent a week's holiday and I called in at Kings Cross Model Shop on the way there. Modellers Mecca used to be a fabulous model shop in the West Midlands. Just about every major city/town had at least one 'proper' model shop. 

 

Is it a chicken and egg situation? More recent high quality RTR stuff has meant a drop off in kit-building, so why should model shops stock the bits for builders which aren't now asked for in such numbers? Or, would-be builders are frustrated at not being able to buy the bits they need because model shops are just packed with RTR stuff, which does sell. 

 

I've mentioned before that at last year's Ally Pally Show (one of the most important in the calendar?) I was unable to buy any motors, gearboxes, wheels, loco-fittings or even complete loco kits (other than some available on the MRC's SH stand). 

 

My advice? I've said it before, whenever and wherever you see anything kit-like, buy it now - and buy the bits you need to complete it as well. It might mean you'll become a sort of 'collector', but it'll mean the kit-builder has something to carry on with. 

 

Another 'stumbling block' to kit-building is rising prices. Markits drivers are now around £7.00 per wheel. Imagine building a 4mm 9F now. With axles, carrying wheels and crankpins, close to £100.00 will be needed to just wheel it. Then add around £40.00/£50.00 for a decent motor/gearbox (nearer £60.00 if it's a DJH one), and then buy the kit, and gosh! Factor in the chance of cocking the whole lot up, and one can see the attraction of 'just' buying a Bachmann or Hornby one if one needed (or wanted) a 9F (or more than one). Time was, of course, that an RTR 9F meant a glossy piece of tender-drive 'nonsense' from Hornby - not now. 

 

DJH 9F 92042 02.jpg

 

DJH 9F 92042 04.jpg

 

I bought this Model Loco (DJH) 9F as a complete kit (ex-motor) from the one remaining model shop in Chester (there used to be five) about four years ago. Blowing off the dust of decades from the box, the proprietor said '£60.00, please' (see what I mean about getting stuff when you see it?). I built it just over a year ago. Anyone know the current, complete cost of a DJH 9F and everything needed to make it go, in comparison with a Bachmann or Hornby one? More of a contrast than a comparison I'd guess. 

 

I think kit-building will become even more niche than it ever was, and not before long. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

Those prices are very informative though I would be very happy to get a set of 7mm loco wheels + axle for that. They are currently about £22. However the total cost of a 4mm loco appears to be about 60% of a 7mm one which seems to be about right in terms of the scale ratio. A Slater's compound is just over £500 but has wheels, Motor, gears and transfers. It just needs paint adding.

 

However the debate over the availability of "the other bits needed" is a very valid one. A few years ago, when I was manager of Wakefield show, someone asked me my opinion of another show. I replied that though there were several 7mm layout s there I couldn't even find a few 7mm basics such as couplings and buffers among the various traders at the show. I always tried to keep as many specialist suppliers as possible at Wakefield and tried not to have too much duplication. However over the years at least two of the traders told me, with regret, that they could no longer justify the overhead expenses of attending even though they did enjoy the show. They had a business to run and I could fully understand the position that they were in with the cost of accommodation, food and transport to factor in. Likewise with model shops, the capital cost of having a metal centre with lots of brass sections, is quite high and unless the turnover is regular then it can't be justified. The same is true for things like wheels, motors and gears. I hope that some "Proper" model shops do survive. I have become acutely aware of the benefit of such shops since moving to France. My nearest shop is at least 100 miles away so I have to rely on mail order. However it has also made me a bit more organised as to shopping lists when we visit the UK. It certainly helps that Hobby Holidays is close to No 1 son's house. Other friends have shopped for me at Telford and then arranged to get the bits to me but these things have to be planned a few months in advance.

 

As to modelling skills. I hope that these will continue to get better, with advice and help from friends on here. It is actually quite surprising how many pieces I have fabricated for the latest two kit builds, almost without thinking. Yesterday I was working on the 2-4-0 and found that the smokebox front plate was missing (I probably used it on another kit). Almost without thinking I cut a corner off an empty etch, marked the back with a felt tip pen, then used tin snips to roughly shape it before soldering it to the smokebox and finishing it off with various files. Only a few years ago I wold never have attempted anything like that. The acquisition of skills and confidence is a gradual process and it needs discussions like this sometimes to realise how progress has been made.

 

Jamie

Edited January 15, 2019 by jamie92208

[Jol Wilkinson]

Such activities were in fact taking place on stand 96 - the DEMU society stand.

Arun,

 

but would that be clear to someone who perhaps wanted to build a plastic wagon kit or a simple etched model? If I wanted to learn about modelling DEMU I know where I should look, but would not assume that's where to find out how to build a SE Finecast loco, a Roxey etched carriage kit, etc.

 

For comparison, these are the demonstrations at last years Spring ExpoEM in Bracknell;

 

Painting and Lining complex liveries (Coaches and Wagons)

Laser Cutting Techniques

Electrical Control panel construction

Signal Construction

Loco Construction, Painting and Lining

Basic Moulding Techniques

Converting Ready to Run Locomotives

Wagon and Van Construction (See MRJ 238/39/41)

Bullhead Trackwork Construction

Wagon Suspension and Springing

Scenics

Pendon    Display/demonstration 

MERG     Demonstration 

DEMU

 

I may be alone in thinking that these surely give a clear idea as to what each demo is about, rather than leaving a visitor needing to enquire. As we know, some people are often reluctant to start of a conversation with a demonstrator, for fear of showing their ignorance. Ironic, because demonstrating is all about sharing knowledge.

 

Jol

[micklner]

Is that complete, Mick? For a DJH 9F. 

 

Wheels and motor/gearbox would surely add up to near £150.00 alone, maybe more. 

 

DJH no longer provide wheels in their kits, so is that just the price of the bodywork? If so, then by the time everything has been factored-in, not far off £350.00 will be the total. Quite a bit more than an RTR equivalent.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

You wish !! that price is for the kit alone . ( I wonder how many they actually sell in a year?).

 

I dread to think how much one would be built and painted professionally £800 plus? . That sadly is why many people can't or don't do kits, either they don't have the skill , are not well enough or simply can't afford the prices to have any made for them, plus I am sure many other reasons as well.

[60027Merlin]

Regarding the R-T-R and kit built locos, another point to consider is in comparing the finished articles.

 

In the case of a pacific costing roughly £170 in R-T-R against the cost of the kit, wheels, motor/gears etc. of at least £300 how many people will be able to build and paint/line to a good standard which, even if not as good as the R-T-R model, would still be passable?

 

A few years ago I heard a customer in our local model shop raising this very point as he examined a Hornby A4 and A3 in the showcases and when seriously thinking about purchasing a kit (not from the shop as they no longer stock them!) decided that he could not finish an A3 kit to an acceptable level, especially when considering the money, and therefore purchased the Hornby loco.

 

As Tony once pointed out, us kit builders are gradually drifting out to the far edges where the air is thinner (sometimes really bluer as well when things get a bit difficult!)

[Lecorbusier]

To put the case for the kit ... from the perspective of one who is hopefully not going to drop off his perch for a good 30 - 35 years!

 

Firstly if you model a line or era which is poorly served by RTR, you are going to have to kit or scratch build anyway  .... and as the current train spotting generation works its way through, the massive emphasis on 1930s - 60s I suspect will drop off.

 

Secondly, if you decide to model to EM or P4 standards (not to mention the myriad of options in other scales) then if you go RTR you are still going to have to buy Wheels/Chassis/Gearbox combos (before any detailing alterations) ... so the cost comparison is not so out of kilter.

 

I think you will always have a section of the hobby who will be more interested in the building/craftsmanship/making side of things .... it may settle back a touch, but i don't think it is a dying art.

 

3d printing will I suspect have a massive impact upon both kits and the RTR market.

 

I refuse to be all doom and gloom.

 

In P4 at least what we now have available and where things are going all look pretty healthy .... though I accept P4 is a pretty niche market compared to the over all hobby.

[rowanj]

The last couple of posts, one from Tony and then from Eric (Merlin60027) prompted me to reply.

I am a distinctly average solo modeller, with no background or training in engineering, painting, carpentry, electrical work, etc. I will never, with the best will in the world, reach the calibre of some of the posters here, Grahame's architectural work, for example, is jaw dropping, and the same can be said for Tony's locos, Andrew (Headstock)'s coaches, just as examples., I'll never be able to build to the same standard as the best RTR, especially locos, and  I see no great point in trying to replicate them via a kit. Nor will I reach the modelling standard of those mentioned, and several others who inhabit this thread.

 

However I do like to have a go, and therefore concentrate on things not available as RTR - locos being the main case in point, So I accept my locos or wagons wont look as good, though I insist they run just as well. I rename or renumber RTR locos to fit my prototypical location (though the cry of "Strangers in the House" is often heard) and I repaint stock to fit the location also. Because I chose a real location, I had to scratch build the signal boxes, and lay a 3rd Rail. I have also recently re-discovered the joy of wagon building, though don't go to the extent that many choose and fit added detail to the basic ,usually Parkside, kits.

 

What is the point of all this rambling? It is to suggest that aspiring to do your best doesn't mean that, because your skills are limited, you should be ashamed to try to build or modify.If you choose to put your work out there for others to see, while inevitably there will be those who laugh or worse, there will be many more who will help or encourage. 

 

Some folk are so ham-fisted, they will never build a satisfactory model. Others will never enjoy trying . This shouldn't prevent them enjoying running trains if they wish to do so, and RTR makes this possible.  But for those with sufficient resources - money, time, tools, workspace- who are prepared to have a go, try their best, want to improve, but RECOGNISE THEIR LIMITATIONS, supplementing RTR will normally greatly enhance the pleasure from their railway.

 

To illustrate what I mean, attached is a photo of my short LOCO coal train, now complete. The rake is all kit -built, as is the loco. It passes a rake of tank wagons, re-painted Bachmann/Mainline/Hornby with new transfers, So kit built and modified RTR in harmony. The signal box is scratch-built, but largely Metcalfe sheets, The signals are Ratio, and that on the main-line is the correct 3-way splitting Distant showing the train will leave the ECML to head down the Blyth and Tyne. It wont win any prizes, but I made it all. How cool is that?

Edited January 15, 2019 by rowanj

[vulcanbomber]

Thought I would add a comment.

My main interest has developed into Model Buildings and the the trains are something which run through the Model. Also it is designed with the grandchildren in mind, hence all the the lighting. I'm not a rivet counter and am happy if it looks right.

I like the hobby because there are always different things to take an interest in. eg DCC ,computers, scratch buildings, a little bit of history, when I go walking in the country side I am always on the look out for ideas.

Yes my locos and rolling stock are all RTR but my buildings are not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's important to remember that this hobby is a broad church

 

.

[Arun Sharma]

Arun,

 

but would that be clear to someone who perhaps wanted to build a plastic wagon kit or a simple etched model? If I wanted to learn about modelling DEMU I know where I should look, but would not assume that's where to find out how to build a SE Finecast loco, a Roxey etched carriage kit, etc.

 

For comparison, these are the demonstrations at last years Spring ExpoEM in Bracknell;

 

Painting and Lining complex liveries (Coaches and Wagons)

Laser Cutting Techniques

Electrical Control panel construction

Signal Construction

Loco Construction, Painting and Lining

Basic Moulding Techniques

Converting Ready to Run Locomotives

Wagon and Van Construction (See MRJ 238/39/41)

Bullhead Trackwork Construction

Wagon Suspension and Springing

Scenics

Pendon    Display/demonstration 

MERG     Demonstration 

DEMU

 

I may be alone in thinking that these surely give a clear idea as to what each demo is about, rather than leaving a visitor needing to enquire. As we know, some people are often reluctant to start of a conversation with a demonstrator, for fear of showing their ignorance. Ironic, because demonstrating is all about sharing knowledge.

 

Jol

Jol - I do believe a full response to your missive would go to the root of what shows and "railway modelling" are about. 

Shows fall into several classifications but for our purposes here let's just look at whether it's a local or "national" show. The "national" shows  arguably include the single scale society shows as well as those shows run by specific line/scale societies and media agencies.

My impressions from sitting on a stand at Stevenage [and this is no criticism of CMRA] is that many visitors were not interested in what was happening on our society's stand having just glossed over the banner saying, "DEMU" and assumed there would be nothing of interest for them there. Thus they would have missed e.g., populating Mk1 coaches, scratchbuilding and modifying Presflo tank wagons, weathering coaches, etch artwork, scratchbuilt DS74 BO-BO, combination of 3D designed/printed class 309 cabs with etched N-S bodies and underframes to name just a few.

Formal demonstration displays allowing 1 to 1  explanations are certainly more common at "national" shows such as EXPO EM, GUILDEX, Warley, Scaleforum et al but local shows also have such capable demonstrators about [who are usually double-hatted] and really all you need to do is keep your eyes open and perhaps ask. 

If people only walk around looking for, and making beelines to areas of specific interest at shows, they might often miss a serious chunk of what modelling can be about and understandably return home with a degree of dissatisfaction. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Arun Sharma

[Tony Wright]

The last couple of posts, one from Tony and then from Eric (Merlin60027) prompted me to reply.

I am a distinctly average solo modeller, with no background or training in engineering, painting, carpentry, electrical work, etc. I will never, with the best will in the world, reach the calibre of some of the posters here, Grahame's architectural work, for example, is jaw dropping, and the same can be said for Tony's locos, Andrew (Headstock)'s coaches, just as examples., I'll never be able to build to the same standard as the best RTR, especially locos, and  I see no great point in trying to replicate them via a kit. Nor will I reach the modelling standard of those mentioned, and several others who inhabit this thread.

 

However I do like to have a go, and therefore concentrate on things not available as RTR - locos being the main case in point, So I accept my locos or wagons wont look as good, though I insist they run just as well. I rename or renumber RTR locos to fit my prototypical location (though the cry of "Strangers in the House" is often heard) and I repaint stock to fit the location also. Because I chose a real location, I had to scratch build the signal boxes, and lay a 3rd Rail. I have also recently re-discovered the joy of wagon building, though don't go to the extent that many choose and fit added detail to the basic ,usually Parkside, kits.

 

What is the point of all this rambling? It is to suggest that aspiring to do your best doesn't mean that, because your skills are limited, you should be ashamed to try to build or modify.If you choose to put your work out there for others to see, while inevitably there will be those who laugh or worse, there will be many more who will help or encourage. 

 

Some folk are so ham-fisted, they will never build a satisfactory model. Others will never enjoy trying . This shouldn't prevent them enjoying running trains if they wish to do so, and RTR makes this possible.  But for those with sufficient resources - money, time, tools, workspace- who are prepared to have a go, try their best, want to improve, but RECOGNISE THEIR LIMITATIONS, supplementing RTR will normally greatly enhance the pleasure from their railway.

 

To illustrate what I mean, attached is a photo of my short LOCO coal train, now complete. The rake is all kit -built, as is the loco. It passes a rake of tank wagons, re-painted Bachmann/Mainline/Hornby with new transfers, So kit built and modified RTR in harmony. The signal box is scratch-built, but largely Metcalfe sheets, The signals are Ratio, and that on the main-line is the correct 3-way splitting Distant showing the train will leave the ECML to head down the Blyth and Tyne. It wont win any prizes, but I made it all. How cool is that?

Great stuff John,

 

Thanks for posting.

 

I'd disagree strongly on one point. The last thing you've posted is an example of 'rambling'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Thought I would add a comment.

My main interest has developed into Model Buildings and the the trains are something which run through the Model. Also it is designed with the grandchildren in mind, hence all the the lighting. I'm not a rivet counter and am happy if it looks right.

I like the hobby because there are always different things to take an interest in. eg DCC ,computers, scratch buildings, a little bit of history, when I go walking in the country side I am always on the look out for ideas.

Yes my locos and rolling stock are all RTR but my buildings are not.

 

Church 4.jpg

 

8 .jpg

 

Farm 36.jpg

 

Market 24.jpg

 

St.Shops 60.jpg

 

It's important to remember that this hobby is a broad church

 

.

Good evening Richard,

 

Many, many thanks for posting examples of your work. It really is beautifully-done. This is exactly what folk should be encouraged to do. I would also think a lot of observation has gone into your constructions.

 

The hobby is a broad church, but not broad enough for any 'extremists' in my view, who, whenever someone disagrees with their views produce the most vituperate of responses. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[AndyID]

They don't make 'em like they used to.

 

http://www.eastbank.org.uk/shops.htm

[thegreenhowards]

Jol - I do believe a full response to your missive would go to the root of what shows and "railway modelling" are about. 

Shows fall into several classifications but for our purposes here let's just look at whether it's a local or "national" show. The "national" shows  arguably include the single scale society shows as well as those shows run by specific line/scale societies and media agencies.

My impressions from sitting on a stand at Stevenage [and this is no criticism of CMRA] is that many visitors were not interested in what was happening on our society's stand having just glossed over the banner saying, "DEMU" and assumed there would be nothing of interest for them there. Thus they would have missed e.g., populating Mk1 coaches, scratchbuilding and modifying Presflo tank wagons, weathering coaches, etch artwork, scratchbuilt DS74 BO-BO, combination of 3D designed/printed class 309 cabs with etched N-S bodies and underframes to name just a few.

Formal demonstration displays allowing 1 to 1  explanations are certainly more common at "national" shows such as EXPO EM, GUILDEX, Warley, Scaleforum et al but local shows also have such capable demonstrators about [who are usually double-hatted] and really all you need to do is keep your eyes open and perhaps ask. 

If people only walk around looking for, and making beelines to areas of specific interest at shows, they might often miss a serious chunk of what modelling can be about and understandably return home with a degree of dissatisfaction.

 

Hi Arun,

 

I’m afraid that I did just walk by and I’m kicking myself now because I would have been very interested in much of what you describe above, particularly the presflo wagons. I’m just starting working my way through about 20 in various states of repair that I’ve bought for a quid or two at swap meets in order to create the Cliffe-Uddingston block cement train on my layout, Gresley Junction. There was just so much to see - in my view much more than, say, Warley and only a day to do it in!

 

It would have been good to say hello to you again as well. I will look more closely next time!

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

 

Regarding the R-T-R and kit built locos, another point to consider is in comparing the finished articles.

 

In the case of a pacific costing roughly £170 in R-T-R against the cost of the kit, wheels, motor/gears etc. of at least £300 how many people will be able to build and paint/line to a good standard which, even if not as good as the R-T-R model, would still be passable?

 

A few years ago I heard a customer in our local model shop raising this very point as he examined a Hornby A4 and A3 in the showcases and when seriously thinking about purchasing a kit (not from the shop as they no longer stock them!) decided that he could not finish an A3 kit to an acceptable level, especially when considering the money, and therefore purchased the Hornby loco.

 

As Tony once pointed out, us kit builders are gradually drifting out to the far edges where the air is thinner (sometimes really bluer as well when things get a bit difficult!)

 

Some very good points, Eric,

 

Thanks for posting. 

 

I suppose it was around the turn of the century, with the release of the likes of Hornby's rebuilt Merchant Navy, when the difference between a good kit-built loco and an out-of-the-box loco virtually disappeared. And, as the century has gone on the difference has again increased. But, this time it's in the opposite direction, and very few modellers can match the excellence, both in terms of appearance and performance, of today's RTR items by building a kit. Is it any wonder why the kit-builders are becoming more and more marginalised? Add on to that the difference in price (in OO) and it's really a 'no brainer'. 

 

That said, the likes of us enjoy building kits - and always have done (and always will?). That they might not be as good as an RTR equivalent (and I say this both for myself and with respect for you) is rather irrelevant - it's the personal making of things which is still very important. And, in many cases still, the only way to get a particular class of loco is to make it.  

 

I don't have many RTR locos, and most of what I had have now been sold-on. I do have a few left, and some are illustrated below.

 

 

Two modified Bachmann Peppercorn Pacifics, 60538 and 60125 respectively. Both have been renumbered/renamed, both have had their rear ends lifted up to match their tenders, both have had replacement bogie wheels fitted and lots of wiggly pipes have been added. 60125 has replacement DJH A1 etched brass deflectors. Tom Foster weathered VELOCITY and Ian Rathbone weathered SCOTTISH UNION. Both aren't used very much. Why? Neither will pull as well as my DJH equivalents and neither are 'mine' in the same way as I view my own constructions. That, of curse is purely personal, but I'll bet both of these are 'superior' to many DJH kit-built equivalents I've seen. Which, to me, means why waste time and money on building a kit when the end results won't be as good as something arrived at by modifying an RTR item? Other than the personal satisfaction of having made it oneself and the fact that the kit-built one will pull more, assuming the chassis is a good runner. 

 

 

This is an old Replica/Bachmann B1 which I've taken a fair bit further than just detailing. The original split chassis was just awful, and I've built a Comet replacement, using Markits wheels and a DJH gearbox. However, Bachmann's latest B1 has a very good chassis now, and Hornby produces a splendid B1. There must be hundreds of dud split chassis B1s still out there, though, just waiting for a Comet replacement. The bodies of both the loco and tender are very good. 

 

 

A Bachmann K3, altered beautifully by Tony Geary, to which I've added several wiggly pipes. Despite this looking very natural, the drivers are still underscale and its performance leaves something to be desired with regard to really smooth running. 

 

 

A modified Hornby O1, engaged in some pick-up duties. This is far, far better than my scratch-built O1 from over 40 years ago. However, I wish its footplate were not quite so wobbly. 

 

 

A Hornby modified Britannia and a Heljan modified O2. Both 'modifications' probably go a bit further than many might contemplate with regard to 'improving' their RTR locos. 70054 started life as a tender-drive 70046, and I've built replacement Comet chassis for both loco and tender. I turned the Heljan O2/3 into an O2/2 by fitting a new cab, making a new front buffer beam, adding new buffers, changing the drive to RH and making a GNR tender for it. 

 

What do all these show? That modified RTR locos are more than acceptable as 'layout' locos, even if they're not used very often. If nothing else, it illustrates how good current RTR locos are and how many more people can enjoy the benefits of far more accurate locos than in the past. Which, in many ways is good for the hobby.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Tony Wright

[96701]

I think you're dead right, Phil,

 

The demise of the 'proper' model shop has been mentioned before. The same question keeps on coming up as to why they disappeared. As Clive Mortimer has so rightly pointed out, a shop won't stock what it can't sell. 

 

Years ago, I'd often travel to Reading to visit EAMES there. I could go into that great shop, chat to Bob Treacher, and come out with all the parts to either scratch-build or kit-build a loco or carriages. I'd do the same at Kings Cross, where Bert Collins would often be in there. 43 years ago, all the bits to scratch-build GREAT NORTHERN went to Paris with us, where we spent a week's holiday and I called in at Kings Cross Model Shop on the way there. Modellers Mecca used to be a fabulous model shop in the West Midlands. Just about every major city/town had at least one 'proper' model shop. 

 

Is it a chicken and egg situation? More recent high quality RTR stuff has meant a drop off in kit-building, so why should model shops stock the bits for builders which aren't now asked for in such numbers? Or, would-be builders are frustrated at not being able to buy the bits they need because model shops are just packed with RTR stuff, which does sell. 

 

I've mentioned before that at last year's Ally Pally Show (one of the most important in the calendar?) I was unable to buy any motors, gearboxes, wheels, loco-fittings or even complete loco kits (other than some available on the MRC's SH stand). 

 

My advice? I've said it before, whenever and wherever you see anything kit-like, buy it now - and buy the bits you need to complete it as well. It might mean you'll become a sort of 'collector', but it'll mean the kit-builder has something to carry on with. 

 

Another 'stumbling block' to kit-building is rising prices. Markits drivers are now around £7.00 per wheel. Imagine building a 4mm 9F now. With axles, carrying wheels and crankpins, close to £100.00 will be needed to just wheel it. Then add around £40.00/£50.00 for a decent motor/gearbox (nearer £60.00 if it's a DJH one), and then buy the kit, and gosh! Factor in the chance of cocking the whole lot up, and one can see the attraction of 'just' buying a Bachmann or Hornby one if one needed (or wanted) a 9F (or more than one). Time was, of course, that an RTR 9F meant a glossy piece of tender-drive 'nonsense' from Hornby - not now. 

 

DJH 9F 92042 02.jpg

 

DJH 9F 92042 04.jpg

 

I bought this Model Loco (DJH) 9F as a complete kit (ex-motor) from the one remaining model shop in Chester (there used to be five) about four years ago. Blowing off the dust of decades from the box, the proprietor said '£60.00, please' (see what I mean about getting stuff when you see it?). I built it just over a year ago. Anyone know the current, complete cost of a DJH 9F and everything needed to make it go, in comparison with a Bachmann or Hornby one? More of a contrast than a comparison I'd guess. 

 

I think kit-building will become even more niche than it ever was, and not before long. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Another element is what I would call corporate memory. Geoff Brewin knew quite a bit about Comet's range and would guide people as to which bits they should buy. I had a spell behind his counter whilst he had a comfort break at York, and by the time he had come back, he had a queue of three people who asked me questions which I didn't even understand, let alone answer. At least I did manage to sell a SIG01, signalling detail kit because co-incidentally Geoff had asked me what all the bits were so he could advise anybody who might want one. Sadly, all that knowledge has now gone, probably never to be replaced, just as Bob Treacher isn't around to be asked.

[Atso]

The last couple of posts, one from Tony and then from Eric (Merlin60027) prompted me to reply.

I am a distinctly average solo modeller, with no background or training in engineering, painting, carpentry, electrical work, etc. I will never, with the best will in the world, reach the calibre of some of the posters here, Grahame's architectural work, for example, is jaw dropping, and the same can be said for Tony's locos, Andrew (Headstock)'s coaches, just as examples., I'll never be able to build to the same standard as the best RTR, especially locos, and I see no great point in trying to replicate them via a kit. Nor will I reach the modelling standard of those mentioned, and several others who inhabit this thread.

 

However I do like to have a go, and therefore concentrate on things not available as RTR - locos being the main case in point, So I accept my locos or wagons wont look as good, though I insist they run just as well. I rename or renumber RTR locos to fit my prototypical location (though the cry of "Strangers in the House" is often heard) and I repaint stock to fit the location also. Because I chose a real location, I had to scratch build the signal boxes, and lay a 3rd Rail. I have also recently re-discovered the joy of wagon building, though don't go to the extent that many choose and fit added detail to the basic ,usually Parkside, kits.

 

What is the point of all this rambling? It is to suggest that aspiring to do your best doesn't mean that, because your skills are limited, you should be ashamed to try to build or modify.If you choose to put your work out there for others to see, while inevitably there will be those who laugh or worse, there will be many more who will help or encourage.

 

Some folk are so ham-fisted, they will never build a satisfactory model. Others will never enjoy trying . This shouldn't prevent them enjoying running trains if they wish to do so, and RTR makes this possible. But for those with sufficient resources - money, time, tools, workspace- who are prepared to have a go, try their best, want to improve, but RECOGNISE THEIR LIMITATIONS, supplementing RTR will normally greatly enhance the pleasure from their railway.

 

To illustrate what I mean, attached is a photo of my short LOCO coal train, now complete. The rake is all kit -built, as is the loco. It passes a rake of tank wagons, re-painted Bachmann/Mainline/Hornby with new transfers, So kit built and modified RTR in harmony. The signal box is scratch-built, but largely Metcalfe sheets, The signals are Ratio, and that on the main-line is the correct 3-way splitting Distant showing the train will leave the ECML to head down the Blyth and Tyne. It wont win any prizes, but I made it all. How cool is that?

rowanj, those wagons and loco do look very good and I'm certainly not seeing anything wrong with them in your photos and think that your efforts are very good indeed.

 

However, three words in your post jumped out at me, "RECOGNISE THEIR LIMITATIONS" - well they are in capitals. Those words remind me about something a very well know and respected coach in the figure skating word said to me during my days as a competitive free skater (the solo section where you jump and spin).

 

"Most skaters will reach their mental limitations long before they reach their physical ones."

 

Now I wasn't a gifted skater and had started because of a deformity within my left ear that seriously affected my balance. As a result, absolutely nothing was easy to me and, when I was fifteen, I'd had to have surgery to my left ear to remove an infection that was threatening to kill me. I'm now more than 50% def in my left side as a result and, according to the specialists that treated me, now had insufficient balance to continue skating. Throughout my career, nobody expected anything from me, I wasn't good enough to be noticed. However, over time and with a lot of practice, falls, injuries, etc I improved sufficiently that someone suggested that I attend the Russian squad's summer camp in Spain (where I met the coach above). That was a wonderful month where I got invited more than once to train on the same ice as Olympic and World champions - an amazing experience that ranks as one of my favorite memories. I was nowhere near the same league as these skaters (but they 100% accepted me on with them) and one day, I asked the coach why he kept inviting me onto this ice and training me for free (his fee was $100 per hour - this was 1998!). He replied that it was because while I lacked the talent, I had the heart and he would rather teach a one skater with the heart (but not the talent) than one hundred skaters with the talent (but no heart) - although he also admitted he'd rather teach one skater with both of these qualities!

 

I never qualified for the National Championships (my personal goal, I didn't want to win it, just qualify and finish in last place) but I did complete all of the competitive tests and learnt how to do four of the six types of triple jump (three turns in the air) - nobody expected me to do that! In 2013 (after several years away from the sport), I went and qualified for the National Adult Championships and got to finally compete against some (former) elite level skaters. I finished second which was a major step above my goal of simply qualifying and it didn't matter that I couldn't do as many of the technical tricks anymore, it was finally fulfilling a long held ambition in some form.

 

Why have I bothered to post this. Well, it seems to me that the quote above from the Russian coach can be applied to modelling as well. Yes, I fully accept that there are people who's eyesight or motor skills have deteriorated to a point where model making is difficult or impossible. However, I would suggest that there are also a great many modellers who have defeated themselves before they begin. Which brings me to another quote that I remember from that same coach:

 

"There is no shame in trying but failing. However, there is nothing but shame in failing to try."

 

If I hadn't tried to build (and initially fail - many, many times) to build and paint models then I wouldn't have learnt anything and I certainly wouldn't have surpassed my wildest expectations of what I am capable of. I found that, just like skating, it is a case of learning the techniques and practicing to try and perfect them.

 

I recognise my limitations,and sometimes they get the better of me, but I also enjoy trampling all over them from time to time!

 

I haven't touch the ice in over a year, maybe I should go and dig out my skates again.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Atso

[CF MRC]

I work to my father’s maxim: “He who says it can’t be done is liable to be passed by someone doing it!”

 

Tim