Bernard Lamb Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Sorry Bill I'm being thick but I can't get that; what is a bulb angle? Thanks Phil One edge is rolled round into a bulb. This can vary in shape from round to bulb like and can be equally spaced either side of he flange or all to one side. Quite a common idea when you need to stiffen an angle and do not need the extra thickness over the whole section. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) It is some years ago since I did the Hornby Gresley coach conversions. I sawed off the solebars then removed plastic from the floor before gluing the solebars back in place. They were 31mm apart over the outsides when I had finished.... The underframe parts were removed and the trussrod pods reduced in width to fit between the newly positioned solebars... The narrowed chassis improved the appearance of a standard unmodified Hornby body (I removed the lining)... Comet etched brass sides (open brake third) glued to the Hornby roof and ends with Evostik and finished in BR blood & custard... Edited July 26, 2016 by coachmann 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) Err no. The solebars were a 10" x 3.5" bulb angle. The flange was at the tap and the bulb along the lower edge. True, but I've never been able to buy it from Eileen's Emporium. Edited July 26, 2016 by Headstock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 The narrowed chassis improved the appearance of a standard unmodified Hornby body (I removed the lining)... WEB Gresley coach chassis 5 jpg.jpg It Looks fab. Elegant rather than Fat arsed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 True, but I've never been able to buy it from Eileen's Emporium. Not even 3 x 1 mm uneven angle with a suitable wire soldered onto the bottom edge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) Those are heavy duty bogies, I think, Mick, for a catering car. This is becoming something of a bugbear for me ... I had understood from previous exchanges on the subject that, in 4mm scale and at "normal viewing distances", there was so very little difference in the dimensions and the design that it was hardly worth the trouble and cost of modifying existing bogies to the 'heavy duty' type (though obviously if one were building a pair from a kit it would then make sense to get the 'correct' version of the sides, if there was a choice). Perhaps someone who has good examples of both types could post clear adjacent pictures and draw specific attention to where the divergences lie, please? Many thanks. Edited July 26, 2016 by Willie Whizz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Not even 3 x 1 mm uneven angle with a suitable wire soldered onto the bottom edge? Funny enough, I did that with a comet solebar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 This is becoming something of a bugbear for me ... I had understood from previous exchanges on the subject that, in 4mm scale and at "normal viewing distances", there was so very little difference in the dimensions and the design that it was hardly worth the trouble and cost of modifying existing bogies to the 'heavy duty' type (though obviously if one were building a pair from a kit it would then make sense to get the 'correct' version of the sides, if there was a choice). Perhaps someone who has good examples of both types could post clear adjacent pictures and draw specific attention to where the divergences lie, please? Many thanks. See for yourself: Standard Heavy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brighton_JunctionLNER Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 It is some years ago since I did the Hornby Gresley coach conversions. I sawed off the solebars then removed plastic from the floor before gluing the solebars back in place. They were 31mm apart over the outsides when I had finished.... WEB Gresley coach chassis 1.jpg WEB Gresley coach chassis 4 jpg.jpg The underframe parts were removed and the trussrod pods reduced in width to fit between the newly positioned solebars... WEB Gresley coach chassis 2.jpg WEB Gresley coach chassis 3 jpg.jpg The narrowed chassis improved the appearance of a standard unmodified Hornby body (I removed the lining)... WEB Gresley coach chassis 5 jpg.jpg Comet etched brass sides (open brake third) glued to the Hornby roof and ends with Evostik and finished in BR blood & custard... WEB Gresley coach chassis 6 jpg.jpg hello, Hornby conversion...do you mean they used to be part of the rail road range? jesse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) See for yourself: Standard Heavy Deeper frames and extra row of Rivets (not shown on the drawing, you can see them in Mallards earlier photos ) above the Axle boxes on the Heavy version. Edited July 27, 2016 by micklner Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) How far one goes in changing from one type of Gresley bogie to another is a matter of personal standards / tastes / expectations. I admire those who take the trouble to use the right ones, and admit to being a lazy devil myself as I rely on the excuse that I feel that from all but close viewing distances one 4mm scale black grimy Gresley bogie looks very much like another. I therefore use what is most readily available at the best price! Mind you, I must thank Bill for having given me a few minutes entertainment last night whilst I looked up "bulb angle", eventually finding a proper diagram after wading through lots of annoying Chinese adverts for steel angles that clearly were not "bulb" but which are being dumped on the world market (including our bit of it because our government is too soft to slam a massive tariff on give-away Chinese steel)...... Edited July 27, 2016 by gr.king Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 27, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2016 It is some years ago since I did the Hornby Gresley coach conversions. I sawed off the solebars then removed plastic from the floor before gluing the solebars back in place. They were 31mm apart over the outsides when I had finished.... WEB Gresley coach chassis 1.jpg WEB Gresley coach chassis 4 jpg.jpg The underframe parts were removed and the trussrod pods reduced in width to fit between the newly positioned solebars... WEB Gresley coach chassis 2.jpg WEB Gresley coach chassis 3 jpg.jpg The narrowed chassis improved the appearance of a standard unmodified Hornby body (I removed the lining)... WEB Gresley coach chassis 5 jpg.jpg Comet etched brass sides (open brake third) glued to the Hornby roof and ends with Evostik and finished in BR blood & custard... WEB Gresley coach chassis 6 jpg.jpg Thanks Coach. I remember that well. It was one of those builds that got me inspired. I'd forgotten that slimming trick though. I suspect Gilbert might have some of those now? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 27, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2016 How far one goes in changing from one type of Gresley bogie to another is a matter of personal standards / tastes / expectations. I admire those who take the trouble to use the right ones, and admit to being a lazy devil myself as I rely on the excuse that I feel that from all but close viewing distances one 4mm scale black grimy Gresley bogie looks very much like another. I therefore use what is most readily available at the best price! Mind you, I must thank Bill for having given me a few minutes entertainment last night whilst I looked up "bulb angle", eventually finding a proper diagram after wading through lots of annoying Chinese adverts for steel angles that clearly were not "bulb" but which are being dumped on the world market (including our bit of it because our government is too soft to slam a massive tariff on give-away Chinese steel)...... The as ever voice of reason. So J, in that lovely LNER Coaches Book I got from you all those years ago, where can I find a bulb solebar picture as I'm still a bit confused? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 27, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2016 hello, Hornby conversion...do you mean they used to be part of the rail road range? jesse Sometimes, but they are too short normally. I'm afraid one has to take the saw to a 'proper job' Hornby Gresley. Once upon a time the Sleepers were good with TB UF but now they are silly prices. Best to try and find cosmetically damaged Hornby ones such as the sides all scuffed and handles fallen off etc. You don't need the sides. Look at it this way: Hornby coach at £30 + sides at (say) £12 + parts @ (say) £10 = £50+ and time. Comet Kit + wheels around £50 and, of course, time. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) I tend to agree more these days about 'layout' coaches and bogie detail. I have a few LNWR non-corridors running on whitemetal bulbiron and deepframe bogies but seeing as many LNWR bogies acquired LMS axlebox covers in later years I am fitting Bill Bedford - Shapeways LMS bogies to them to reduce weight. Re. Gresley bogies, I think there is a big difference in the appearance of usual spidery bogies and the deepframe bogies that went under heavyweight coaches, alrthough I admit I never spotted the difference in steam days. Well, did any of us........? Edited July 27, 2016 by coachmann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 27, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2016 This is becoming something of a bugbear for me ... I had understood from previous exchanges on the subject that, in 4mm scale and at "normal viewing distances", there was so very little difference in the dimensions and the design that it was hardly worth the trouble and cost of modifying existing bogies to the 'heavy duty' type (though obviously if one were building a pair from a kit it would then make sense to get the 'correct' version of the sides, if there was a choice). Perhaps someone who has good examples of both types could post clear adjacent pictures and draw specific attention to where the divergences lie, please? Many thanks. Willie I think it is the fact that 'those that knew the real thing' like to see a representation of the proper bogies on the particular coach. It is one of those things that just irritates if it isn't quite correct. Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Does this help? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Mind you, I must thank Bill for having given me a few minutes entertainment last night whilst I looked up "bulb angle", The degree of list of a daffodil? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 That would at least explain it politely. Strangely, the sewer that is my mind did not conjure up any filth until you suggested alternatives to steel shipbuilding sections or light bulbs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I well remember all the hoo-hah when the new Hornby Gresley coaches appeared, square-bottomed bodies and over-width chassis, many modellers were very disappointed. I didn't buy any at the time, preferring to carry on with my Kirk kits, with the odd Comet thrown in. The models do have many redeeming qualities, picking Tony W's brains awhile back, he said one of the best combinations was etched sides on a modified Hornby shell, which of course is one way of trying to cover the huge number of diagram variations, within this style of coach. However the handful of types modelled by Hornby are still attractive in themselves, was there a way of improving the body profile, coupled with the Lazza 2008 chassis narrowing technique? With the body off, the first task is to remove the glazing, bit tricky this, some are glued more heavily than others. Then I cut slots up to waist height on the ends, the body re-profiling was achieved using broad smooth jaw pliers, applied at every vertical stanchion, first at the waist, then the middle of the lower side, then nearer the bottom. I know full well about the incorrect middle beading height, but it's not so obvious on the maroon livery, so was left as a compromise, which saves repainting, although I did spray on some thinned gloss varnish, to improve the drab finish. For crimson and cream livery the offending beading strip has to be replaced, since the interruption to the livery is plainly obvious, and a repaint is necessary anyway. I agree with Larry, these coaches have too many fine details delicately stuck on, if you buy secondhand donors, they nearly always have bits missing. Of course you could rebuild all your Gresleys with etched sides, but for people who just want a few to mix in with other types, this could be an easier solution? Cheers, Brian. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 27, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2016 Does this help? Steel Sections.jpg Doh! I'm not in any way an engineer as you can tell, so this really explains all. But why 'bulb'? I kept thinking light bulb shape and just couldn't get my brain cell to work out the shape! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I did wonder , should have looked the rivet pattern !! Did Hornby use them on the Sleeper version ?, must check on that. edit Just had a look double rivet versions on my LNER Sleeper and Buffet versions. EKM used to sell the bogies as spares, no idea if they still have any. Hi Mick, sorry, I missed your post. The article has been temporarily put on the back burner due to the track and pointwork replacement required on LSGC following the boxing day floods. The good news is that the Layout was reassembled in the main hall yesterday and full testing was carried out today. Everything passed muster including new stock, so I should be in a position to finish the article following our next exhibition in early August. I would like to include a Thompson carriage that has laid idle for some time as this requires a different technique. I shall keep you informed. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) I hope Tony doesn't mind a few more pics, elbowed on to his modelling thread, but we were discussing the pros and cons of the Hornby Gresleys. As previously mentioned, one problem is bits falling off, especially the delicate and rather prone bogie steps, i've added a strengthening piece under the bogie side steps, plastic glued, and later superglued too. The Hornby plastic seems to not totally succumb to the usual solvents (bit like that nylon stuff they used to use), so the superglue is to reinforce things and make it more durable, keep well away from the body glazing for a few hours though. Note the superglue stains on the bogie sideframes, which looked quite natural, so I left them. The old dreaded clip fits are gone, so it needed a new body fixing, there's just enough room behind the buffer beams for a 10BA screw, which fits into a new tapped bracket, higher up in the gangway. I've added antimacassars to Hornby's nice seats (cut up white electrical tape), and changed the couplings to Bachmann narrow type, with an auto-uncoupler added. I've also started work on their Diag.17 Sleeper First, this crimson and cream vehicle must have it's offending middle beading replaced, otherwise it plays havoc with the livery division (not so obvious on the all maroon livery), the new beading is plastic microrod. At least Hornby went to the trouble of fitting a (slightly over-thick, but looks the part for a "layout coach") turnbuckle underframe, which hasn't gone back on to the narrowed chassis yet. Unfortunately this particular coach sits on the wrong bogies, which should be the heavy duty type with deeper frames, time for one of Brian's bodges, a strip of square 40 thou solvent glued, then later superglued for strength, beware of those pesky separate spring dampers popping off. Cheers, Brian. Edited July 28, 2016 by Brian Kirby 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Thank you, gentlemen, for the replies regarding the Gresley bogies. I suppose what I'd really been hoping for was that someone would be able to post a picture of models of a 'Standard' and a 'Heavy bogie coupled end-to-end so that any material differences would be clear. That hasn't happened so far but I'd appreciate it if anyone "has the wherewithal". From the diagrams Bill Bedford kindly posted, however, it seems the principal visual difference is a somewhat deeper 'side section' (probably not the correct terminology but you know what I mean!) between the two axleboxes. So could that be sufficiently 'suggested' in model form buy simply adding a sliver of plastikard to the underside of the 'side section', do you think? EDIT: Well blow me down; I had to break-off half-way through writing this post and lo and behold, Brian's post came in which I only saw afterwards, and which shows just such a simple modification as I was enquiring about! Other comments would still be appreciated though. Edited July 27, 2016 by Willie Whizz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Thanks Willie, but my method is merely a quick bodge, it lacks any lower rivets, so is not strictly Kosher. However the deeper frame is the most obvious feature, so with a lick of black paint, it's good enough for me as the "layout coach" rolls by. I've done the same years ago with the Bachmann bogies, it saves a lot of time (and expense). The purists will hate me for this, Judge Tony may have to pass a ruling? BTW, forgot to mention above, but the lining on Hornby's maroon Gresley was a bit too fierce and bright, so I drew two fine lines either side, which took the sting out of it. BK 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now