Wright writes.....

[Michael Edge]

It is difficult to see what application a class of Bulleid 2-8-2s would have had on the Southern, when the less powerful Pacifics were perfectly adequate, and in fact over represented.  As Coachman reminded us, the permanent way was in need of upgrading, and as a commercial proposition for the region's traffic, what was the point?  

Where was the middle cylinder supposed to be in this?

[Tony Wright]

I have just viewed both Grantham and Copenhagen Fields at Warley....magnificent...other fine models as well.....highlights....the train engine running light following out its previous pulled set of coaches now going out the other way with another engine at Grantham, the original loco then running onto the shed.

On Copenhagen a double headed ivatt and Stirling single combo......then to remind me of my true allegiance Hornby and a brand new Duchess...46256 and 46235.... The problem I already have them on my fleet together with other examples. Hornby though have really surpassed themselves if the model on display is the result!

Did you pop over and have a chat at Warley? If so, my apologies because I can't remember. I had so many visitors that I must have appeared rude to some for not engaging immediately (or at all) in conversation. That said, may I please thank all those who talked to me over the weekend? I even taught several folk how to solder. 

 

Though the show was its usual enjoyable time, access, both before and after, was its normal nightmare for exhibitors (this is not the Warley Club's fault at all). To be told by some jumped-up little traffic twerp on Sunday that 'you can't have access to the adjacent car park until 5.15 pm (when all the documentation stated 5.00 pm) was ludicrous. That then caused a traffic jam of irate exhibitors until the due time arrived and we then entered acres of vacant car parking space. 

 

My thanks to all who put on the event.

 

 

Speaking of Grantham, here's the new London Road Models D2 I built (painted beautifully by Ian Rathbone) on the layout for which she was built. I'm told it behaved faultlessly.

 

 

 

As did the new P2 (the usual Wright/Rathbone combo), though most of her time was spent on Ian's stand. 

 

 

And, the Ivatt/Stirling combo on Copenhagen Fields. 

 

More Grantham shots on the Grantham thread. 

 

Edited because the extra Grantham shots have appeared here as well. Bl**dy computers!

 

My apologies but they're on the Grantham thread as well. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Tony Wright

[grob1234]

'jumped-up little traffic twerp'

 

Thank you Tony, you've made my day with the above!

 

Thank you also for the pictures, I look forward to seeing more, I regret that I was unable to attend. Next year maybe.

Edited November 28, 2016 by grob1234

[glo41f]

Glad you all seem to have had a good time at Warley and I hope everyone got back safely.  I must confess that I have tried twice to get there and failed dismally on both occasions so now do not even attempt it!  I must say that in my humble opinion Copenhagen Fields must be the most stunning exhibition layout currently on the circuit. Everything looks "right" and is a testament to the team at the MRC who have been building it for more that 25 years. Such dedication is amazing. 

 

You 4mm types must be delighted with the Hornby announcements. Will thete be a B12 on the M&GN route through LB?

 

Martin Long

[Tony Wright]

Glad you all seem to have had a good time at Warley and I hope everyone got back safely.  I must confess that I have tried twice to get there and failed dismally on both occasions so now do not even attempt it!  I must say that in my humble opinion Copenhagen Fields must be the most stunning exhibition layout currently on the circuit. Everything looks "right" and is a testament to the team at the MRC who have been building it for more that 25 years. Such dedication is amazing. 

 

You 4mm types must be delighted with the Hornby announcements. Will thete be a B12 on the M&GN route through LB?

 

Martin Long

Thanks Martin,

 

With regard to a Hornby B12 appearing on the M&GNR bit of LB (or the main line), the answer is an emphatic 'No!' Why? Two reasons. For one, now being retired, could I justify the purchasing of one? And, two, I already have two B12s which I've built myself. As is known, I much prefer to build my own locos. That way, how they run is entirely up (or down) to me. 

 

 

I use this one on the main line. 61553 was actually shedded at Grantham until the mid-'50s (which makes it a bit early for the actual period chosen). I built it from a Coopercraft kit (one of only three known to exist which work!)

 

 

The other one I built from a PDK kit, which Mr Rathbone painted perfectly. This one is also a bit early for the period chosen (the M&GNR's timescale is more flexible).

 

 

In both these shots it's seen in service on the Leicester. 

 

 

 

And, in studio poses. 

 

I've said before (too many times?) that I'm finding the burgeoning and inexorable rise of RTR really quite boring now, and not just in OO. So many layouts in the press and at shows now seem to be stages for what the RTR boys can give us. I've also said that I have great admiration for those who alter things for themselves, but I do see a diminishing in folk actually making things for themselves - not a lone view if my conversations at Warley were typical.

 

How refreshing, then, to see some new-technology 2mm loco bodies presented for me to look at, in the form of a 3D-printed J6 and O4. Both were the work of Atso, and they were superb. I hope he posts images.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Tony Wright

[jwealleans]

a Coopercraft kit (one of only three known to exist which work!)

Did you see the third one, then, Tony? I've been meaning to ask ever since you mentioned it.

 

Agreed on the 3D printed bodies, Steve brought them to Grantham to show us and they really are outstanding.

[Focalplane]

I got a Hornby email over the weekend and was just about to trash it and unsubscribe when I noticed a photo of someone measuring up 46235 at the Stinktank.  I am so glad I have abandoned 4mm scale because otherwise I might just have considered buying one. for old times sake  As I have mentioned before I used to go to the old Museum of Science and Industry on Newhall Street before and after 46235 arrived.  It was in an open setting and moved on the hour, driven by an electric motor.  Now it is stuffed inside a museum that has separated engine from tender and in the process lost all sense of the magnificence of the beast.

 

The price I have seen quoted is just shy of £200.  This is half the price of a David Andrews brass etch kit in 7mm scale (though that price does not include wheels and motor/gearbox).  Other than my turntable is only 60ft I would possibly build one of these kits and thus gain far more satisfaction than opening a red box..

 

And no, I will not be visiting the Stinktank, my memory of the old museum serves me very well.

[coachmann]

Why would people deny themselves a perfectly good Hornby B12, which incidentally will have a representation of the large boss wheel with flared spokes. Standard Romfords barely do the job. The continual hammering of RTR is plain daft IMV. The fault, if there is indeed any "fault", lies with railway modellers who have simply given up and gone 'proprietary'. 

 

It is well to remember that proprietary modelling at one time was in the guise of Trix, Triang, Hornby-Triang and Hornby Industries. Their products intended for the robust toy market had little if anything to do with the railway modeling hobby until the turn of the 21st Century. Up to that time, railway modellers fed the magazines with articles on building, on research and on scale drawings. When Hornby and Bachmann went to China, the move started the massive expansion of proprietary modelling, and many railway modellers quite simply capitulated. Why wouldn't they? It has kept our hobby buoyant, in fact it must have attracted a lot of people to the model railway hobby.  What we have today is proprietary modellers. They are the sector that RMweb and the model railways magazines feen on today. Railway modelling of the old school still exists but it is mostly confined to areas where RTR has still not reached.

[jrg1]

Where was the middle cylinder supposed to be in this?

Another drawing to consider

[t-b-g]

Why would people deny themselves a perfectly good Hornby B12, which incidentally will have a representation of the large boss wheel with flared spokes. Standard Romfords barely do the job. The continual hammering of RTR is plain daft IMV. The fault, if there is indeed any "fault", lies with railway modellers who have simply given up and gone 'proprietary'. 

 

It is well to remember that proprietary modelling at one time was in the guise of Trix, Triang, Hornby-Triang and Hornby Industries. Their products intended for the robust toy market had little if anything to do with the railway modeling hobby until the turn of the 21st Century. Up to that time, railway modellers fed the magazines with articles on building, on research and on scale drawings. When Hornby and Bachmann went to China, the move started the massive expansion of proprietary modelling, and many railway modellers quite simply capitulated. Why wouldn't they? It has kept our hobby buoyant, in fact it must have attracted a lot of people to the model railway hobby.  What we have today is proprietary modellers. They are the sector that RMweb and the model railways magazines feen on today. Railway modelling of the old school still exists but it is mostly confined to areas where RTR has still not reached.

 

Most RTR models are as good as, or better than, most people can make. I don't think that anybody is hammering the quality, although perhaps, as Tony W has pointed out, they are not quite in the same league when it comes to haulage or running quality.

 

The problem is that RTR is now so good that many layouts that you see in magazines or at shows rely on it completely. There is no variety, as each layout has an "identikit" stud of locos and only those few varieties of carriage that the manufacturers choose to provide.

 

I agree that the hobby is becoming increasingly based around RTR and that the number of people who will build things just because they can and do enjoy it is probably declining. It is perhaps a bit in line with the "I want it and I want it now" society that we seem to be becoming.

 

There is, however, still an "old guard" with a few new people joining it, that prefers the idea of having models that they have made rather than bought. It is, to me, the area of the hobby that I enjoy for myself. It is also the area of the hobby that I enjoy when I am looking at layouts and models that others have done.

 

So I don't buy most of the magazines now and I don't go to many shows because both are so RTR centred but I do enjoy (very much) sitting in my workshop with a kit or something scratchbuilt on the bench. It is so much more satisfying than opening a box.

[Focalplane]

So I don't buy most of the magazines now and I don't go to many shows because both are so RTR centred but I do enjoy (very much) sitting in my workshop with a kit or something scratchbuilt on the bench. It is so much more satisfying than opening a box.

 

Which is exactly what I did this past weekend.  When I flew out of Birmingham last Tuesday I was reminded of the fact that I would be missing the Warley Show (again).  But I was heading south to my work bench.  I built a Just Like The Real Thing Mark 1 B1 bogie (and a half) and started to learn how to assemble polyurethane parts with CA glue.  I actually found it more difficult than soldering!  There is the saying that you can't teach an old dog new tricks - not true.

[grob1234]

To me, the RTR debate is all about marketing.

 

I really want our brilliant hobby to grow.

 

The way for a hobby (or anything come to think of it) to grow, is by appealing to more and more people. Generally, that is achieved by marketing (I am not a marketeer by the way!). Smaller companies, those who produce kits and specialised items for model railways simply do not have the budget or time to market effectively, and rely on word of mouth for trade. This means that essentially, only those who have an existing presence within the hobby will seek their services, because only people who are in the hobby already will know that they want some 4mm loco lamps for example. A newcomer to the hobby wouldn't even know they needed 4mm loco lamps, so would have no need to seek a supplier of such items.

 

The big boys (Hornby, Bachmann etc) do have a marketing budget, and are able to get their products placed, so that people can see them. They are able to use social media, YouTube and so on to spread their message. Quite simply the more people that buy RTR, the more money these big companies make, and therefore the more money they can spend on marketing to bring yet more people into the hobby.

 

So it is my strong feeling that a buoyant RTR sector boots the overall appeal of the hobby. By churning out top quality products like they do now (I just have to compare some Hornby locos I had 20 years ago to those of today to see the huge improvement in quality) the big manufacturers are hopefully reaching out and have the ability to reach out to new blood in a way that our smaller suppliers cannot.

 

Once those newcomers start to become immersed in the hobby, then hopefully, they will start to explore other avenues like kit building, painting, conversions and so on. 

 

For me, RTR has definitely got a large place in my future layout plans, but I'll combine it with my personal preference for building kits, and therefore I'll be able to enjoy more facets to this great hobby.

[ianwales]

Tom: If you're J3 is going to have the Stirling class D tender, more typical for the class than the more modern Ivatt tenders, the five or six pages of waffle staring here may be of use:

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2443&start=4275

 

Tony: Lovely loco, though I can see the evidence of the poor fit of some parts of the valve gear. Even with the slidebars well inclined, their bottom edge at the rear is still above the foot of the motion bracket. Presumably none of Morgan's  partial Thompson A2 valve gear etch turned out to be of any help in the struggle?

 

Before long, I MUST get the two Hornby conversions finished off properly....

 

STA79758rmw.jpgSTA79808rmw.jpg

 

Hi

 

Looking at the photo of Lord President is that what is meant when people write about the P2 with a Bugatti Front?

 

Ian

[Flood]

I am assuming that the comments regarding the increased usage of RTR models are predominantly focused on steam era layouts.

 

For the Diesel and Electric modeller there have been virtually no locomotive kits to build, apart from shunters, for years. Of course Clive Mortimer has consistently shown that good quality diesels can be scratch built but few modellers go to that extreme to have a model of a particular prototype.

 

What I do notice is either the likes of a Bachmann Class 85 being converted into a Class 81 (AE5 into an AE1 for those from the 1960s), the use of detailing parts to correct manufacturers errors (Class 50 windscreens being a particular bug-bear for me) or complete loco repaints to give individual variation on models.

 

The point can be made that this restriction dues not extend to coaches and wagons if modelling over the last 40 years. Whilst Bachmann and Hornby Mk1 stock is a very good starting point they do need modification to encompass the variations that existed and the use of either Comet sides or complete kits improve coaching stock rakes even more. Bachmann make very nice Mk2 stock but these too can be sawn up to make later variations. There are still a large number of types of wagon that are not available RTR but are available as kits and even if RTR models do exist the kit built wagon has much going for it. In my own case I never bought any Bachmann 12T ventilated vans when they were released so I have had the fun in modelling variations based on the Parkside kit, which is also dimensionally more accurate.

 

So whilst my hands are tied when it comes to models of diesel locomotives this certainly does not stop me applying some modelling in order to stamp my own personal mark on a model, the Dapol Western shown below being a case in point. I um-ed and ah-ed (is that how you write it?) as to whether I should cut a hole in a perfectly good model but I'm glad I did. To not give the Dapol Class 22 a complete repaint was never going to be an option.

 

 

 

 

Graham H

Edited April 6, 2022 by Flood

[Tony Wright]

Did you see the third one, then, Tony? I've been meaning to ask ever since you mentioned it.

 

Agreed on the 3D printed bodies, Steve brought them to Grantham to show us and they really are outstanding.

I have Jonathan,

 

And, I can confirm that it does work. It was built by Chris(? - sorry, forgotten his surname) of the Bingham club and he brought it to run on Little Bytham; which it did, very well. 

 

As far as I know the display model on Coopercraft's stand (years ago) didn't even have a motor in it. If it did, I never saw it run. 

 

So, please, a request. Has anyone out there built and got to run (really well) a Coopercraft B12/3 other than Jonathan, Chris and me? 

[Michael Edge]

Another drawing to consider

Not much room for the con rod over the leading axle but at least the chain driven miniature valve gear wouldn't take up too much space. No need for in accurate conjugated valve gear in Bulleid's vision - although the chain driven gear had it's own problems...

[Michael Edge]

I am assuming that the comments regarding the increased usage of RTR models are predominantly focused on steam era layouts.

 

For the Diesel and Electric modeller there have been virtually no locomotive kits to build, apart from shunters, for years. Of course Clive Mortimer has consistently shown that good quality diesels can be scratch built but few modellers go to that extreme to have a model of a particular prototype.

 

What I do notice is either the likes of a Bachmann Class 85 being converted into a Class 81 (AE5 into an AE1 for those from the 1960s), the use of detailing parts to correct manufacturers errors (Class 50 windscreens being a particular bug-bear for me) or complete loco repaints to give individual variation on models.

 

The point can be made that this restriction dues not extend to coaches and wagons if modelling over the last 40 years. Whilst Bachmann and Hornby Mk1 stock is a very good starting point they do need modification to encompass the variations that existed and the use of either Comet sides or complete kits improve coaching stock rakes even more. Bachmann make very nice Mk2 stock but these too can be sawn up to make later variations. There are still a large number of types of wagon that are not available RTR but are available as kits and even if RTR models do exist the kit built wagon has much going for it. In my own case I never bought any Bachmann 12T ventilated vans when they were released so I have had the fun in modelling variations based on the Parkside kit, which is also dimensionally more accurate.

 

So whilst my hands are tied when it comes to models of diesel locomotives this certainly does not stop me applying some modelling in order to stamp my own personal mark on a model, the Dapol Western shown below being a case in point. I um-ed and ah-ed (is that how you write it?) as to whether I should cut a hole in a perfectly good model but I'm glad I did. To not give the Dapol Class 22 a complete repaint was never going to be an option.

 

D1058.jpg

 

Class 22 weathered (1).JPG

 

 

Graham H

We do have quite a few diesel and electric locos bigger than shunters but most large locos are better produced as mouldings, the complex shapes are extremely difficult to reproduce with etched parts. I'm having enough trouble with the Fell at the moment and most modellers think that's just a box.

[coachmann]

Fell???????????? Couldn't you design it with the airsmooth casing missing then we can see the two Dukedogs inside.....   

[Tony Wright]

Why would people deny themselves a perfectly good Hornby B12, which incidentally will have a representation of the large boss wheel with flared spokes. Standard Romfords barely do the job. The continual hammering of RTR is plain daft IMV. The fault, if there is indeed any "fault", lies with railway modellers who have simply given up and gone 'proprietary'. 

 

It is well to remember that proprietary modelling at one time was in the guise of Trix, Triang, Hornby-Triang and Hornby Industries. Their products intended for the robust toy market had little if anything to do with the railway modeling hobby until the turn of the 21st Century. Up to that time, railway modellers fed the magazines with articles on building, on research and on scale drawings. When Hornby and Bachmann went to China, the move started the massive expansion of proprietary modelling, and many railway modellers quite simply capitulated. Why wouldn't they? It has kept our hobby buoyant, in fact it must have attracted a lot of people to the model railway hobby.  What we have today is proprietary modellers. They are the sector that RMweb and the model railways magazines feen on today. Railway modelling of the old school still exists but it is mostly confined to areas where RTR has still not reached.

Thanks Larry,

 

I don't know whether I'm denying myself the right to own a perfectly good Hornby B12. I do agree, however, that its wheels will probably be a better representation than standard Romfords. 61553, by the way, has Gibson wheels, which do have the right spoke-shape. A shame, then, that they wobble a bit. 

 

Am I hammering RTR? I said I think its boring; in the same way, when passing the stands of 'box shifters' at shows, I take no notice, much preferring those showing how things can be made.

 

That it's good cannot be denied but one model is just the same as another. To own an item, all one has to do is to have earned enough money to have bought it. I also agree that better RTR has probably attracted more people into the hobby, or back into the hobby. That said, RTR has kept its own sector buoyant but it's to the detriment of the kit side of things.

 

This theme keeps on recurring on this thread (because I won't let it go?), but I keep in close touch with the manufacturers of kits, very close with one or two. The tale is always the same - a diminishing market, fewer kits sold, fewer folk actually building them and (most of them) getting on in years. When I demonstrate at shows I'm demonstrating the techniques which I use to build my models. I don't demonstrate how to earn money, how to write a cheque, how to open a box or how to put something on the track. Does anyone do that at shows? Granted, at the Warley show I had a couple of RTR carriage conversions (major conversions) which, if nothing else, confirms my 'status' as a hypocrite.

 

I'll reiterate; I do admire those who alter RTR stuff for themselves. Someone questioned whether my comments were more towards steam-outline, but I think it's across the whole board. In many cases, RTR conversions are superior to kit-built equivalents. The same might be said for straight-from-the-box stuff. However, I do get a bit tired of seeing the same RTR locos running on layouts at shows and the same ones in the model press. On one occasion, jumping out of a front cover of a mag' was an RTR loco (running on a layout where much of the infrastructure and architecture must have been scratch-built) where nothing had been altered on it. It even had that ghastly snow-plough of a coupling attached to its front bogie. 

 

One cannot stop progress and the better RTR stuff has made the hobby so much more egalitarian. However, rather like today's more uniform real railway, I find it very hard to generate personal interest in it. 

 

My young Australian friend, Jesse, left today, having spent a most-enjoyable week with us (mutually-enjoyable). At 20, he's still very much RTR-dependent. But, for how long? Not that long if his enthusiasm and eagerness to learn are anything to go by. He's itching to start building kits and next year (I think he'll come back) I'll be showing him how. 

 

Finally, am I to assume that you use RTR, Larry? If so, does that extend to the carriages on your layout? Looking at recent (and photographing) examples of your work, I'd be surprised if you did. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

I am assuming that the comments regarding the increased usage of RTR models are predominantly focused on steam era layouts.

 

For the Diesel and Electric modeller there have been virtually no locomotive kits to build, apart from shunters, for years. Of course Clive Mortimer has consistently shown that good quality diesels can be scratch built but few modellers go to that extreme to have a model of a particular prototype.

 

What I do notice is either the likes of a Bachmann Class 85 being converted into a Class 81 (AE5 into an AE1 for those from the 1960s), the use of detailing parts to correct manufacturers errors (Class 50 windscreens being a particular bug-bear for me) or complete loco repaints to give individual variation on models.

 

The point can be made that this restriction dues not extend to coaches and wagons if modelling over the last 40 years. Whilst Bachmann and Hornby Mk1 stock is a very good starting point they do need modification to encompass the variations that existed and the use of either Comet sides or complete kits improve coaching stock rakes even more. Bachmann make very nice Mk2 stock but these too can be sawn up to make later variations. There are still a large number of types of wagon that are not available RTR but are available as kits and even if RTR models do exist the kit built wagon has much going for it. In my own case I never bought any Bachmann 12T ventilated vans when they were released so I have had the fun in modelling variations based on the Parkside kit, which is also dimensionally more accurate.

 

So whilst my hands are tied when it comes to models of diesel locomotives this certainly does not stop me applying some modelling in order to stamp my own personal mark on a model, the Dapol Western shown below being a case in point. I um-ed and ah-ed (is that how you write it?) as to whether I should cut a hole in a perfectly good model but I'm glad I did. To not give the Dapol Class 22 a complete repaint was never going to be an option.

 

D1058.jpg

 

Class 22 weathered (1).JPG

 

 

Graham H

Graham,

 

Your conversions give you great credit, and I have an admiration for such work. You've done it yourself, to a high standard, you've not asked anyone else to do it for you and it's entirely personal and unique. 

 

My compliments. 

[micklner]

Tony

        You mentioned modified r.t.r well this a about as far as I can go with modifying a Loco. Graeme's resin and etched parts to be added to what was a Hornby A3 Sandwich originally, to start creating  a A1/1 Great Northern .

      It will be pulling the completed Tender using a GBL Mallard body , much modified as well which was a good start started as it has the correct straight sides . It is fitted to a Hornby A4 chassis, why ?, simply because its much better than any kit version in looks , details etc and costs about £7 . 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Tony

        You mentioned modified r.t.r well this a about as far as I can go with modifying a Loco. Graeme's resin and etched parts to be added to what was a Hornby A3 Sandwich originally, to start creating  a A1/1 Great Northern .

      It will be pulling the completed Tender using a GBL Mallard body , much modified as well which was a good start started as it has the correct straight sides . It is fitted to a Hornby A4 chassis, why ?, simply because its much better than any kit version in looks , details etc and costs about £7 . 

 

IMG_1581.JPG

 

IMG_1582.JPG

I think what you've done Mick is far, far beyond RTR. This is just as much 'real' modelling as building a kit. 

[coachmann]

Finally, am I to assume that you use RTR, Larry? If so, does that extend to the carriages on your layout? Looking at recently (and photographing) examples of your work, I'd be surprised if you did. 

 

I have have purchased RTR 00 coaches where they saved me a lot of donkey work. The Bachmann LMS Inspection Saloon was repainted in blood & custard and fitted with decent bogies. A 'Porthole' composite was also bought because Bachmann had captured the unique side and roof profile of this diagram, plus it had the correct underframe with four trussrods.  I also added a couple of Bachmann Mk.I's and Hawksworth corridor coaches, but fitted them with etched brass sides.

 

Building 0 gauge coaches for the layout takes me considerably longer than in 00, so I was glad to pre-order a RTR GWR auto trailer and a B-set. Take a peek at the 7mm layout & modelling section Tony......It will warm your heart, as there is still a lot of building going on in that scale. 

 

Cheers,

Larry

Edited November 28, 2016 by coachmann

[Poggy1165]

In 7mm scale, there are some absolutely beautiful diesel kits, produced by a certain company owned by a Mr. P. Waterman. Were I a lover of diesels, I would sell my soul for such a kit, even if it meant changing scale. Heck, they are so lovely that even I, a steam obsessive who thinks that anything post 1923 is dangerously modern, find myself seriously tempted.

 

I gather an original Derby lightweight is projected. Given my happy memories of rattling to Hayfield and Macclesfield (via Hyde) on these things, I am going to have to fight really hard to resist.

 

I don't really 'get' the RTR v kit debate - both have their place. If literally everything was available RTR (highly unlikely!) there would still be a place for kits in that some people simply enjoy building the things. Running trains and building models can be part of the same hobby - or they can be quite separate hobbies. 

[micklner]

I think what you've done Mick is far, far beyond RTR. This is just as much 'real' modelling as building a kit. 

 

Exactly Tony, if anything these are harder than some kits, as you have to use more imagination re modifying parts to fit . Certainly more work to the cosmetic bits than on decent kits. The main advantage is a ready built basic chassis which if you use the rtr parts  e.g wheels is much cheaper than most kit chassis and works straight away (normally!!) and again better detail e.g brake gear/cylinders in some cases . 

Edited November 28, 2016 by micklner