coachmann Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) If rebuilt in 1959, there were no alterations to the side shown in my photo. Anyone got a shot of 'tother side by any chance? As regards the LSM models, I seem to remember BSL/Phoenix parts were used. Edited July 22, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 Hello 31A I'd love one of these. But weren't they rebuilt in 1959? Did that alter their appearance? If so, that might be a dampener as far as Bachmann is concerned as they'd need pre-1959 and post-1959 tools made. If the 'rebuild' was mainly internal, then maybe any small external differences could be accommodated with what I believe are called 'slip moulds'. Brian Very, very unlikely one of these pair will ever appear RTR. They were built in 1948 (No.s 1705/6) for use in the Post-War 'Flying Scotsman' sets, which, apart from the BGs, were pressure-ventilated. They then formed part of 'The Capitals Limited', after the non-stop service took that name, then 'The Elizabethan' up to 1956, after which they no longer formed part of the non-stop. Without checking the exact dates, both were subsequently rebuilt, both internally and externally. Windows on the serving side were plated over as (I think) the buffet counter was extended, and the solebar farings were removed. I think they were painted maroon coincidental with this, though I might be wrong. They might even have been maroon in original condition for 'The Elizabethan', in 1956. Certainly, they were maroon on the Cambridge Buffet services as rebuilt. Were they ever painted blue/grey? Southern Pride offers both versions as sides-only (CT6 and CT7, manufacturer''s code), for the very low price of £7.50 each (pair of sides). These are designed to go over modified Bachmann donors, using MJT (or similar) 8' 6" HD bogies. The problem with regard to an RTR model is that they are so specific. Even though the car at Llangollen is the sole survivor of the Thompson PV stock, there were only two built, in original form they only ran in the Kings Cross-Edinburgh non-stops and in rebuilt form they were almost exclusive to the Kings Cross-Cambridge route. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 It's a funny thing, but I find people buy things because they are there or are attractive. I doubt anyone would have bought a kit for a SE&CR 'C' Class but as soon as a RTR model appears on the scene its a sell out - twice over! Again, how many folk needed a Beyer Garratt prior to Hattons model. I suspect this would apply to anything thats looks pretty or unusual, including a Thompson buffet and the same mans A2/3. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 If rebuilt in 1959, there were no alterations to the side shown in my photo. Anyone got a shot of 'tother side by any chance? As regards the LSM models, I seem to remember BSL/Phoenix parts were used. If BSL sides were used, they wouldn't have had the solebars covered. In this respect the sides were wrong for the original teak or carmine and cream. I built one years ago and painted it maroon, but I don't know whether it was the rebuilt version, with exposed solebars and plated-over windows or not (in maroon, it probably should be). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 If BSL sides were used, they wouldn't have had the solebars covered. In this respect the sides were wrong for the original teak or carmine and cream. I built one years ago and painted it maroon, but I don't know whether it was the rebuilt version, with exposed solebars and plated-over windows or not (in maroon, it probably should be). I seem to recall they had sides covering the solebars Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 I seem to recall they had sides covering the solebars Tony. Many thanks, Larry. You've made so many that I bow to your recollection. I know longer have the coach, so my memory might be at fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Anthony, Many thanks...... May we see some pictures of your layout, please? Another non-computer-orientated geek (or otherwise) - 67 and counting! Tony To show my computer-cack-handedness, I have no idea whether this post is going to appear as I intend!! I always reckon I am brilliant at the 1% of my computer that I understand............. Tony, it is very kind of you to ask me to show some pictures on your site, but my layout is far too amateurish to merit inclusion and certainly at this stage of its development - the tools are the largest feature of the room at present. I confess I started ages ago, but work took over, so progress has been off the pace. I have finally managed to retire, but as I was half way to sitting down, the authorities decided that the kitchen had to be re-decorated... I also have a confession to make - I used to travel to school on the Bournemouth Belle, so could I resist? I will probably de-resist as I become more purist. Another confession - I lived in Buckden, so there are (slightly) divided loyalties! Sadly a few years too young to remember it all properly. Unfortunately, also, I was a solo spotter, so had no guidance as to what to look out for, and therefore ended up collecting numbers and little else. Oh, and another influence - I used to go to Northampton for cricket coaching and so also spotted near there with a distinctly LMS influence! So, photographs one day, but not soon, I fear! Anthony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hello Tony I'm not sure how to get the link to work here on RMweb, but if readers go to Flickr and (in the search bar) enter E1706E, they will find some more photos of the vehicle on the Llangollen Railway and some showing it in Blue/Grey. I am given to understand that one of the pair (1705?) eventually became a departmental coach at York (1985) and was painted Olive Green. It looks to me that the rebuilding work would effectively make it 'two projects' from a maker's perspective. A friend (a non Webber) has just returned from holiday and is looking up some rebuild data for me over the next few days. I think Coachman has a good point (#1832) that people go for 'looks' rather than absolute practicality. Not many have space to model prototypical Flying Scotsman sets etc, but many run compressed expresses. The best we can hope for in RTR is a reasonable range of coaching stock, and the Thompson RF (later RU) would fill a needy gap. I'll get back with more on this debate in a day or two. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2014 Closer to home... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/4617-gresley-buffet-cars-in-the-70s/page-4 It's in this thread! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2014 There is a prototype for everything. The 1958 Summer Main Line Carriage workings book shows that the 8.00am Kings Cross- Leeds/Bradford/ Hull split at Doncaster, and the last three carriages - SO RF BCK* then went on to Hull. I suspect that they were attached to a local train, rather than running in that formation, but even so there is an opportunity for legitimate use of a restaurant car in a short(er) train. For those who are bothered about such minutiae, portions are your answer; on trains that split into two or more parts somewhere en route that catering cars had to go into a shorter formation, unless they were removed. That wouldn't apply solely to the Eastern either surely? I have found a couple of other such instances by the way, and that is without trawling through the whole of the books. My research shows that the most common catering formation on the ECML in the '50's was RF/SO. That does raise a problem, for as Tony has pointed out there were very few Thompson SO's indeed, which means that Dia 27 Gresleys would be needed as well as a Thompson RC to get it "right". How many people are in the least bit concerned though? As others have pointed out, not many is the answer, the majority being quite happy to run four coach trains including a restaurant car and whatever else they fancy. So, no SO in the Bachmann Thompson range would be my preference, but a RC instead of the FK, which really weren't very common. I take the point regarding the necessity for different tooling to produce the CK, but I reckon tthat for a representative range they should be there, as there were a lot of them, and the Carriage working books specify 3/3 cars in a lot of formations, so they had to be Thompsons. OK, the books were not always adhered to, but they do give a good idea of what should be there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 There is a prototype for everything. There is. There used to be a picture on fotopic of a V3 hauling a triplet set. Nothing else. Does anyone know if that picture is back online anywhere? I was told at the time it was a special to Tyne Commission Quay for VIPs and that might have been the whole consist, or the triplet had been detached for turning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2014 Summer Saturdays lads, coaches went AWOL. Especially once the MK1 s had 'taken over' (1959/60/1/2) Anything (almost) with wheels that wasn't already booked in a train on the ECML on a summer Saturday could get 'borrowed' by C & W. They could often enjoy a long trip to the south coast and back over a weekend. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) I have never studied train formation and dining routes but I ask myself, which journeys would passenger need meals on. A train leaves the terminus at 9.30a.m. so you've had your brekky before leaving home and by noon a dinner would be handy so you could go straight to the business meeting. Thats about a 3 - 4 hour journey. Same coming back.......... You board at 5.30 and a meal would be useful at 6pm to 6.30pm. For the railway thats expensive dining car staff, gas and food. Then on top of that, is there are large contingency of first class passenger likely to need feeding?.....Do you use a Kitchen Restaurant first or an unclassed kitchen restaurant together with an open first diner to give more tables. The kitchen restaurant could even be sandwiched between open diners. I haven't even covered Kitchen Cars. Edited July 23, 2014 by coachmann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) [ Hello Tony I'm not sure how to get the link to work here on RMweb, but if readers go to Flickr and (in the search bar) enter E1706E, they will find some more photos of the vehicle on the Llangollen Railway and some showing it in Blue/Grey. I am given to understand that one of the pair (1705?) eventually became a departmental coach at York (1985) and was painted Olive Green. It looks to me that the rebuilding work would effectively make it 'two projects' from a maker's perspective. A friend (a non Webber) has just returned from holiday and is looking up some rebuild data for me over the next few days. I think Coachman has a good point (#1832) that people go for 'looks' rather than absolute practicality. Not many have space to model prototypical Flying Scotsman sets etc, but many run compressed expresses. The best we can hope for in RTR is a reasonable range of coaching stock, and the Thompson RF (later RU) would fill a needy gap. I'll get back with more on this debate in a day or two. Brian If it is of any help Brian I have posted my image of E1706E on this thread. I'm not sure if this is the image you may have been referring to but here we are. attachment=448213:E1706E Stratford Sept66 Slide 13.jpg] Edited July 23, 2014 by BrushVeteran 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 The two latest goodies from Bachmann arrived for photography for BRM. The 1F looks very pretty and runs beautifully. Even more pretty in my opinion. Perhaps those with knowledge of these vehicles will give us an opinion. A full review of both items will appear in the next issue of BRM. 17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Beautiful indeed both... but I can't help but comment that, given the debate we've just had regarding catering vehicles, surely an inspection saloon is an even more esoteric type of vehicle. Yet here we have a manufacturer producing one! I look forward to magazine layout articles featuring it being hauled by 71000 with the Midland Pullman coming in the opposite direction. Ah well, back to the kit-building... (Tony - thanks for posting. It IS a gorgeous looking vehicle and I'm sure will sell well for that very fact alone. And I leave it to others to post more helpful comments re its accuracy, etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Beautiful indeed both... but I can't help but comment that, given the debate we've just had regarding catering vehicles, surely an inspection saloon is an even more esoteric type of vehicle. Yet here we have a manufacturer producing one! My thoughts too. Role on a Thompson RF... The inspection saloon is a lovely looking model. Well done Bachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) Bachmann LMS Inspection Saloon 39-775 01.jpg Even more pretty in my opinion. Perhaps those with knowledge of these vehicles will give us an opinion. Looking good although I'm puzzled as to whether the model represents an LMS coach or one given this livery in the 1980s. Are the bogies the same types as on the 'Porthole' stock (image below)? The 1F also looks superb..........One of those models I am unable to resist.... Known it since its early days on the K&WVR circa 1970. Edited July 24, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 It looks to me to be the BR inspection saloon as painted in the late 80s early 90s, Paul Bartlett has a pic here I don't know the provenance, but it may also be right for the actual LMS. It may be false memory syndrome, but I'm sure in the last years of BR there was this one in LMS, one in GWR and others? I recall they looked very smart. I think that - as opposed to the Restaurant car issue mentioned previously - inspection saloons should be a good seller, as you can legitimately run them as a single coach train, probably with a pet or unusual locomotive propelling, on any line, anywhere. Just not every day, mind! Even I would be tempted by one of these, propelled by an Ivatt Ugly, or an Ivatt Mickey Mouse, or even a decent class 25... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 :mosking:The saloon painted in LMS livery by B R had yellow ends. I have a photo of it taken by one 'Coachman' Cheers Merf. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted July 24, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2014 I guess the inspection saloon has arrived because Bachmann produced this in N for the NGS a while back, so all the main work has been done(Cad etc) and only the dies needed producing. As to the 1F, well, what can you say at first glance, except no wonder there are queries over the continued level of kit building. I say this as one who built the Craftsman kit to P4 in about 1980, a nice basic kit (I made an enclosed cab version) that went together well but, you know, still had to be built. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 As to the 1F, well, what can you say at first glance, Looks like a Cabriolet Terrier to me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Griffin Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 The inspection saloon is awesome. Due in the shops imminently isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted July 24, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2014 Bachmann 1F 31-432 07.jpg The 1F looks very pretty and runs beautifully. Hi Tony How much more information does one need from a review. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Market65 Posted July 24, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2014 Looking good although I'm puzzled as to whether the model represents an LMS coach or one given this livery in the 1980s. Re the bogies, I am pretty sure the outside suspension brackets are a BR additive. Are the bogies the same types as on the 'Porthole' stock (image below)? WEB Bachmann new LMS bogie.jpg The 1F also looks superb..........One of those models I am unable to resist.... Known it since its early days on the K&WVR circa 1970. Hi. I've enlarged the photo', and the bogies have that open end to allow for the close-coupling mechanism. They, as far as can be seen, do not have the brass bearings and 'prongs'. One thing that I've found recently, with Bachmann's models is the plastic that they are currently using. Taking the Porthole coach bogie, it is made out of that 'soapy', very flexible material - I cannot recall the correct name for it, but I know it is rotten for glueing details to, among the other drawbacks. The latest class 101 DMU has its bogies made from this plastic, along with the bogies on the class 40 diesels. So I think that some of that 'floppiness' on the Porthole bogies is down to this plastic, as well as a poor basic design. Could be replacement bogie time again with these Inspection Saloons. All the best, Market65. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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