Wright writes.....

[Clive Mortimore]

Though I'm not naturally argumentative (it just happens to me), may I ask a question about liveries, please? 

 

Euxton Junction 01.jpg

 

I have to say, this is a very well-modelled depiction of Euxton Junction, on the WCML in recent times, by the Preston MRS. 

 

What intrigues me is the livery of the unit. I have no idea who designed the colour scheme of the real thing (though no doubt he/she was paid a load of dosh), but I think it's just about the most garish and inappropriate I've ever seen. I say 'intrigues' (which might suggest an interest), though I should say appalled (subjective, I admit). It bears no relationship to the subject it's applied to and does not complement any of the lines of the unit. 

 

The question is, what do others think of this livery? 

 

A second question might be, is there any wonder why real railways have nowhere near the level of interest (particularly among the young) than they used to? 

 

I have come across some younger modellers recently, who are as keen as mustard to make things for themselves - but not what's depicted above. No, the sort of things I remember as a lad. 

 

In no way should this post be construed as a criticism of the group from Preston who built the layout. It really is coming along very well and there should be a place for those who model the contemporary scene - especially when it's done as well as this. 

 

Or, am I just a reactionary old git? 

Hello Tony

 

Isn't the overhead line equipment wonderfully modeled? Do you have any other photos showing it. It looks like they have made a feeder station, similar to the one just down the road to where you live.

 

No comment regarding the livery, but it looks well applied.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[4630]

That particular livery is 'old hat' now.  It was applied to class 350/4 units when the TransPennine Express franchise was a joint FirstGroup/Keolis operation, which ended on 31st March 2016.

 

A new livery reflecting the sole ownership of the franchise by FirstGroup was introduced from 1st April 2016.  I suspect that you'd probably like that livery even less, as shown on the following photo of 350404 at Manchester Piccadilly on 18th May 2017.

 

 

Liveries tend to be very 'marmite' IMHO.  

 

[thegreenhowards]

Though I'm not naturally argumentative (it just happens to me), may I ask a question about liveries, please? 

 

Euxton Junction 01.jpg

 

I have to say, this is a very well-modelled depiction of Euxton Junction, on the WCML in recent times, by the Preston MRS. 

 

What intrigues me is the livery of the unit. I have no idea who designed the colour scheme of the real thing (though no doubt he/she was paid a load of dosh), but I think it's just about the most garish and inappropriate I've ever seen. I say 'intrigues' (which might suggest an interest), though I should say appalled (subjective, I admit). It bears no relationship to the subject it's applied to and does not complement any of the lines of the unit. 

 

The question is, what do others think of this livery? 

 

A second question might be, is there any wonder why real railways have nowhere near the level of interest (particularly among the young) than they used to? 

 

I have come across some younger modellers recently, who are as keen as mustard to make things for themselves - but not what's depicted above. No, the sort of things I remember as a lad. 

 

In no way should this post be construed as a criticism of the group from Preston who built the layout. It really is coming along very well and there should be a place for those who model the contemporary scene - especially when it's done as well as this. 

 

Or, am I just a reactionary old git?

 

Tony,

 

I agree with you on this livery - just random squiggles! However, I think there are some modern liveries which are rather good - I'm fond of the both East and West coast Virgin liveries (although bias may be at fault on this having worked for them!) and the EMT livery which I think looks excellent, particularly on 222s. I know you don't agree with me on these, but hey ho!

 

Andy

[The Johnster]

Liveries are very much a personal thing, and I'd go as far as to say this one isn't really a livery, just branding.  

 

The very worst livery ever perpetrated IMHO was Network South East, how to make a decent respectable railway train look like a pair of Aldi trainers.  Dreadful when clean, worse when dirty.

Edited October 3, 2017 by The Johnster

[unclebobkt]

         Cheap labour was available during the industrial revolution and after. Railway work was regarded as a career; a job for life for labouring classes. They stuck with it knowing there was a ladder to climb that offered prospects. It is generally accepted that locos were kept cleaner in pre-WW1 days and incentive & punishment was the prime mover. The ornate liveries were just asking to be kept clean anyway, but of course there was also a hierarchy of foremen, bosses, management and top brass to see that the lower-orders did their jobs properly.  ... .

  

        Quite clearly I remember seeing a photo. of a broad gauge & GWR. loco. backing-down into Paddington train-shed with some half-a-dozen or so urchins perched on it all ready to give it a final polish before it hauled its train on its journey westwards  

  I think that the steam-dome was covered in sacking so as to preserve its shine until the very last moment.

 

         

[t-b-g]

The thing is that there are lots of designers who earn a crust from brand imaging and general corporate work.

 

There have been many liveries over the years and some of them have looked superb but no designer worth his or her fee could possibly suggest using an old livery and still justify their fees.

 

So they have to come up with something new. When all the good colour combinations and designs have already been used up, they come up with fresh new ones, which are usually garbage. As it is very expensive garbage that the rail companies have paid sky high fees to have designed, they would look incompetent if they had to admit that their fees were wasted on a rubbish design. So the trains end up looking like a primary school pupil chucked some garish poster paint over them.

 

Those same units painted in carmine and cream, with a black and gold lining, or lined maroon, or even BR EMU Green, would look fine.

 

I would love to see one of the ECML sets painted up like the LNER pre war streamliners, with perhaps a similar tribute to the past on the WCML with trains in either blue and silver or red and gold. I think they would look superb.

[Clive Mortimore]

Liveries are very much a personal thing, and I'd go as far as to say this one isn't really a livery, just branding.  

 

The very worst livery ever perpetrated IMHO was Network South East, how to make a decent respectable railway train look like a pair of Aldi trainers.  Dreadful when clean, worse when dirty.

Oi, me and you round the back of the bikesheds to sort this out

 

I always liked Notwork South East livery. It was brighter than the all blue or even the blue-grey many of the units on the GER were blessed with for years. A big pity was it was introduced after the class 306s had been withdrawn. I am sure Thompson designed them to have a snazzy livery not the plain Southern green or BR corporate blue they had to put up with.

 

With many of today's liveries there must be some deep psychological (or pathological) reasoning behind them.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Daniel W]

Speaking as a younger modeller (under 30), I have to say that todays Railways are terribly sterile and dull. There is far too much of a reliance on multiple units too. Apologies in advance if this statement makes anyone feel old, but the Steam era for younger people has now passed into that mythical realm of 'history'. History is something that is always going to appeal to a certain type of person, it seems to be a timeless phenomenon, irregardless of age. As such they are modelling something not out of nostalgia, but perhaps more out of academic fascination?

 

That being said, I suspect that most younger modellers have been introduced to railways by some sort of familial influence and/or have already engaged in other type of 'making things' i.e Warhammer etc. Which, incidentally, is a wonderful hobby. One of the few that seems to actively be drawing in younger people to 'stick things together and paint them'. 

[unclebobkt]

        Liveries are very much a personal thing, and I'd go as far as to say this one isn't really a livery, just branding.  

  ... . 

 

 

        I remember a comment attributed to Sir Felix Pole - last chairman of the GWR. - who  said that he was thankful that he was going blind and thus he would be spared the sight of a 'King.' class painted in BR's blue livery.

               

        

[Tony Wright]

Hello Tony

 

Isn't the overhead line equipment wonderfully modeled? Do you have any other photos showing it. It looks like they have made a feeder station, similar to the one just down the road to where you live.

 

No comment regarding the livery, but it looks well applied.

 

The overhead equipment is very well modelled, Clive - though it's an absolute fag to cut-out in Photoshop!

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

I agree with you on this livery - just random squiggles! However, I think there are some modern liveries which are rather good - I'm fond of the both East and West coast Virgin liveries (although bias may be at fault on this having worked for them!) and the EMT livery which I think looks excellent, particularly on 222s. I know you don't agree with me on these, but hey ho!

 

Andy

Thanks Andy,

 

You're quite right about my dislike of the current Virgin liveries applied (especially) to ECML sets. 

 

 

Thank goodness the Eurostars didn't remain on loan long enough to be covered with the current random squiggles and swirls applied to today's ECML sets. 

 

 

 

In my opinion, the GNER livery was the most apposite, appropriate, distinguished and complementary livery applied to ECML expresses since green Deltics and maroon stock. How appropriate a name, too, rather than named after something which has never had sex! Not only that, the darker livery disguised the prominent body-side ripples, particularly on the Mk. 4 stock. Looking at the current red/grey combination, the sides look to have been made of crumpled foil! 

 

Are we to have more advertising on the sets as well in the future? Films or Father Christmas? At least the RAF commemorative livery has a certain 'dignity', but really. 

 

Such is progress!

 

The pictures above were taken just over 12 years ago, just prior to a summer downpour. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by Tony Wright

[stewartingram]

Oi, me and you round the back of the bikesheds to sort this out

 

I always liked Notwork South East livery. It was brighter than the all blue or even the blue-grey many of the units on the GER were blessed with for may years. A big pity was it was introduced after the class 306s had been withdrawn. I am sure Thompson designed them to have a snazzy livery not the plain Southern green or BR corporate blue they had to put up with.

 

With many of today's liveries there must be some deep psychological (or pathological) reasoning behind them.

I'm not so sure pathological is the right word. 

Perhaps, pathetic might be more appropriate?

 

Stewart

[chrisf]

        I remember a comment attributed to Sir Felix Pole - last chairman of the GWR. - who  said that he was thankful that he was going blind and thus he would be spared the sight of a 'King.' class painted in BR's blue livery.

               

        

 

Pole was never Chairman but General Manager.

 

Chris

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

What intrigues me is the livery of the unit. I have no idea who designed the colour scheme of the real thing (though no doubt he/she was paid a load of dosh), but I think it's just about the most garish and inappropriate I've ever seen. I say 'intrigues' (which might suggest an interest), though I should say appalled (subjective, I admit). It bears no relationship to the subject it's applied to and does not complement any of the lines of the unit.

 

Welcome to the real world Tony!

 

Mike.

[Tony Wright]

Welcome to the real world Tony!

 

Mike.

Mike,

 

When I saw BR Pacifics in green or maroon, hauling maroon stock (or even stock in carmine/cream or green), they were real enough. 

 

Or, the lovely BR version of the L&NWR lined black applied to mixed traffic locos. Wasn't that also in the real world?

 

I know taste is subjective, but liveries of the past (at least to me) were in harmony with the various shapes to which they were applied. Lining followed contours and enhanced the shape, and colour schemes (even elaborate ones) used colours to harmonise, not clash. 

 

Did modern livery designers have a previous existence during times of war? Some of today's liveries look more like camouflage! 

[coachmann]

Did modern livery designers have a previous existence during times of war? Some of today's liveries look more like camouflage! 

...Or graffiti.  Maybe they are sons and daughters of flower power Eloys.

[APOLLO]

Although I liked the "old" BR Maroon, Green and Chocolate / Cream (I was too young to remember Blood & custard), this was a revelation back in 1964.

 

 

And to me, for a corporate railway livery it has never been bettered. 1965 saw the general introduction of Blue / Grey on coaches, a few catering cars at first. By the end of steam it was everywhere, mixed with the old liveries which were starting to rapidly disappear. I model the 65-68 period with quite a livery mix - it was "my" spotting era - not everyone's cup of tea though. Just look at the livery & stock mix on this short film.

 

 

Today's liveries ? - well it's a case of the good (Virgin Pendelino) the bad and the ugly. I also abhor vinyls stuck over windows. 

 

Brit15

Edited October 3, 2017 by APOLLO

[Enterprisingwestern]

Mike,

 

When I saw BR Pacifics in green or maroon, hauling maroon stock (or even stock in carmine/cream or green), they were real enough. 

 

Or, the lovely BR version of the L&NWR lined black applied to mixed traffic locos. Wasn't that also in the real world?

 

I know taste is subjective, but liveries of the past (at least to me) were in harmony with the various shapes to which they were applied. Lining followed contours and enhanced the shape, and colour schemes (even elaborate ones) used colours to harmonise, not clash. 

 

Did modern livery designers have a previous existence during times of war? Some of today's liveries look more like camouflage! 

 

I think you are not far wide of the mark calling it camouflage, maybe the idea is to try and detract from the sameness af current rolling stock, and perhaps it doesn't show up dirt as much?

One would hope there is some logic to it, apart from justifying some well qualified idiots job.

 

Mike.

[gr.king]

...Or graffiti.  Maybe they are sons and daughters of flower power Eloys.

 

It's a shame we don't have enough Morlocks to eliminate that species of rattle-can wielding vermin.

 

 

Graffiti is never anything but the deliberate, scruffy and criminal defacing of private or public property, it is not some kind of socially justifiable "street art"!

Edited October 3, 2017 by gr.king

[St Enodoc]

        I remember a comment attributed to Sir Felix Pole - last chairman of the GWR. - who  said that he was thankful that he was going blind and thus he would be spared the sight of a 'King.' class painted in BR's blue livery.

               

        

"A normal King in blue livery looks better than King Henry VII with streamlining". Discuss.

[Andrew P]

"A normal King in blue livery looks better than King Henry VII with streamlining". Discuss.

I have to say that be it a King, a Duchess, A4, or a Re Built Merchant Navy, they all looked superb in Blue, and I may have one of each for KM, 

 

I saw the King in Blue at the GCR a couple of years back.

[Jesse Sim]

Jesse,

 

How have you put the coal into the tender? What I do with mine is to cut a flat piece of plastikard to fit. I then build up a 'hump' or whatever shape I want the coal to be with plaster (the sort you buy in premixed pots to repair plasterwork). When that's set I paint it black, then put neat PVA onto it and sprinkle coal over that. Once dry you can tap off the excess and that should be it. Have you dripped dilute PVA onto yours?

I sprinkle to coal in and then pour a 50:50 mix of PVA and glue. The plaster idea is good, it all depends on the level of coal I am putting in. 

 

Good afternoon Jesse,

 

All I did was put a thin layer of PVA over the Hornby coal, then sprinkle some real crushed coal over the top. The trick is not to tip out the excess straight away. Just leave it for a while to dry then tip it back into the container. 

 

You might not know that some of the real coal in the tenders of the locos which work on the MR/M&GNR bit of my trainset is actually ultra-real. I picked up a lump or two of it by the site of the real signal box.It had been lying there over 50 years! 

Thanks Tony, i couldn't remember when i watched you do it. Can you get anymore prototypical? 

 

Hi Jesse,

 

Good to see some progress.  I didn't think to look for some coal when I was at Beamish in 2011.  I do have a small lump found locally (Bendigo Vic) somewhere.

 

I found that if you sprinkle bits of coal after you have put glue over the coal in the tender, the coal you have sprinkled over the top will stick to the glue underneath.  The coal on top will keep its natural colour/shade/lustre.  The key is not to fill it up to where you want it to be in the end and sprinkle the dry stuff after you have poured the glue. 

Any loose coal can be reused.

 

I did this with a Britannia and has worked very well.  Similar to the A4 tender you have there.  

 

hope this is of some help.

 

Mark

Hey Mark, thanks very much. Still some wiring to do, but I needed a break from all that. 

 

Ill try that, thanks heaps. 

 

Funny story actually, the security at Heathrow, when I left, all had a chuckle at my dedication for Railway Modelling after asking why there was a fist size lump of coal in my bag. 

[St Enodoc]

Funny story actually, the security at Heathrow, when I left, all had a chuckle at my dedication for Railway Modelling after asking why there was a fist size lump of coal in my bag. 

You should try bringing a Christmas pudding back from Singapore. Think what bombs looked like in old cartoons, episodes of Batman, etc. and you'll see what I mean.

[chrisf]

I brought back a dozen cans of Jupiler beer from Belgium about 15 years ago.  They were in my backpack and must have looked like something explosive on the x-ray.  I was invited - scrub that, yanked - into border control at Brussels Midi station and invited to explain myself.  "Cadeaux pour mes amis, monsieur" I said, which, being interpreted, means "presents for my friends".  With a wave of the hand and, for once, all the fingers on it I was dismissed.

 

Chris

[Richard E]

I think you are not far wide of the mark calling it camouflage, maybe the idea is to try and detract from the sameness af current rolling stock, and perhaps it doesn't show up dirt as much?

One would hope there is some logic to it, apart from justifying some well qualified idiots job.

 

Mike.

Dirt - all these light grey or white liveries (Northern, Virgin East Coast etc) turn a shade of brown fading upwards into the grey at roof line and look filthy within a few days.