Hornby speculation thread

[frobisher]

If Hornby do Bulleid coaches I would hope they do his suburban stuff.

 

I'd have thought that Hornby would be steering clear of those. Bachmann are delivering new tooling for those in N gauge which means they have an awful lot of R&D effort they can share for a new set of 00 models and I'd expect to see an announcement within the next couple of years.

[brushman47544]

I'd have thought that Hornby would be steering clear of those. Bachmann are delivering new tooling for those in N gauge which means they have an awful lot of R&D effort they can share for a new set of 00 models and I'd expect to see an announcement within the next couple of years.

 

I commented on this two posts above. I understood Bachmann was tooling up in N gauge the main line Bullied stock that is already produced in OO, whereas I assume Budgie is referring to the multi-door stock as in the second photo down on this page (coach S5718S) http://www.semgonline.com/coach/bullco01.html

[Guest Belgian]

I commented on this two posts above. I understood Bachmann was tooling up in N gauge the main line Bullied stock that is already produced in OO, whereas I assume Budgie is referring to the multi-door stock as in the second photo down on this page (coach S5718S) http://www.semgonlin...h/bullco01.html

OK, if one is referring to that Bulleid stock: it was actually his initial main line stock and only a very few were built (eighteen 3-car sets on 59' long underframes and four 3-car sets on 63' underframes). None were built for use as 'loose' stock. But they were main line stock, used for stopping services and a number of them did end up on the S&D. But neither that nor the West of England nor the Bournemouth main lines were 'suburban' in the normal sense of the word, unlike the recent LNER Gresley and Thompson suburban stock. Bulleid certainly did design true 'suburban' stock, but it was all EMUs.

 

Revisiting my post 211, and expanding it somewhat, the Southern built nothing but main line stock for locomotive haulage. It used pre-grouping non-corridor and non-gangwayed stock for cross-country services, some being rebuilt onto longer frames under Maunsell, but, due to the Southern Electric all suburban stock was built as part of EMUs.

 

BR's Southern Region acquired a few BR Standard non-gangwayed stock (often referred to as 'Suburban' stock) for use on the Exmouth branch services and a few were last used on the Clapham Jct to Kensington Olympia 'Kenny Belle' workmens' trains in the last gasps of steam workings.

 

JE

[frobisher]

I commented on this two posts above. I understood Bachmann was tooling up in N gauge the main line Bullied stock that is already produced in OO,

 

Which is why it's very likely we'll get updated Bullieds in 00 from Bachmann at some point as these are not the 1980's standard coach we're going to be seeing in N.

 

whereas I assume Budgie is referring to the multi-door stock as in the second photo down on this page (coach S5718S) http://www.semgonlin...h/bullco01.html

 

It's also an opportunity for Bachmann to start filling in missing types as well... If Hornby took a crack at those (for instance) now, they would essentially be trying to complement another manufacturer's range OR duplicate it in part or full. I think they are probably more comfortable continuing to stake out Maunsell territory for themselves.

 

And as Belgian says, suburban Bullieds are EMUs...

[Ozexpatriate]

GWR locomotive speculation

 

I find it interesting that a lot of people think there might be a retooled King or a retooled 61xx. To me this is not Hornby's best investment and is not consistent with their 'design clever' philosophy. I presume that the existing models essentially meet the 'design clever' philosophy already, so why would they change them?

 

To me the most likely 'upgrade' would be a loco-drive Dean goods. We haven't seen it in the range for a long time, and Hornby has been working on upgrading tender drive locomotives to loco-drive.

 

On the topic of new locomotive models, we might see a new GWR locomotive despite being right after the eight-coupled tanks. It would be welcome. Were Hornby to introduce one, I think it will be one of the following:

• Star 4-6-0 - this is such an obvious choice. Never been modelled RTR. Big, green and named. One is in the NRM. It would look lovely with Hornby's lining out. So far it's always been passed over. Is 2013 the year? (If I were wishlisting, this would be the one.)
  
• 64xx 0-6-0PT - a great choice and regularly tipped, but we had three new GWR tanks last year.
  
• 47xx 2-8-0 - consistently the highest polled item but so soon after the eight-coupled tanks?
  

Models I don't expect at all are:

• Manor 4-6-0 - with Halls, Castles and Granges out there in the last few years, is there a market for this? Hornby needs a winner.
  
• Steam railmotor - as much as I would dearly like one and think it will happen eventually, not yet (and not just because of the good Captain's observations)
  

As always, there will be GWR locomotives in the catalogue.

• 5075 Wellington was delayed from the 2012 catalogue to June 2013.
  
• The eight-coupled tanks might get some new running numbers
  
• A second Collett liveried Castle with the new tooling would be nice. So far we've only seen Tintagel.
  
• EDIT: Perhaps a Grange that was announced a couple of years ago but never appeared? (OK I cheated a bit on this one.)
  

The most versatile model they could produce would be a 64xx. It could go nicely with the existing autocoach (which was delayed from 2012). It fits in trainsets and replaces the venerable 2721.

[Guest Belgian]

I know for a fact that as of 1445 hrs on Sunday 18/11/12, no one had approached the Great Western Society with any requests for information on Steam Railmotor No.93....

 

Ah-ha! Confirmation that one is on its way then!! Obviously someone asked at 14-46 on Sunday 18th November . . . (Sorry Tim, couldn't resist it!)

 

JE

[Anglian]

Big tanks for suburban duties? Elsewhere, maybe - but does no-one understand the Brighton Main Line? (The previous suggestions that 2-BILs were suburban units does make me wonder). Lawson Billinton's L class 4-6-4T (98 tons - you want big, huh?) was easily able to manage the heaviest trains on this busy route prior to electrification in the '30s. The fact that the 7 of them were then converted into rather indifferent 4-6-0s, and saddled with a nomenclature that suggested King Arthur's cousin (N15x) rather spoilt their reputation - you are only as good as the last on-time train you hauled, maybe. And then there were the Marsh/Billinton J class Pacific tanks (89 tons) which were doing good work on secondary routes into BR days. Then there were the W 2-6-4s (90 tons), 25 of them doing good things on Cross-London transfers along busy passenger routes, right into the 1960s. I could go on.....

 

I suggested that Hornby may do a big Southern tank. I'd forgotten about the L class though. I mentioned the G16 and H16, I think the later were in passenger green and pulled the race traffic for Ascot. (My father certainly remembers heavy tank engines at Ascot, this would have been late 40's and 50's). There's a boxed set in that association as well "Royal Ascot" etc. The Z was the other one I mentioned, and it would make an interesting subject. I think, but am not certain, that the H16 chassis could also be suitable for an S15 but I stand corrected on that. I'm not convinced that Hornby think in quite the same mode that we tend to. I think they are looking for engines with 'stories' that spark interest in their market beyond what I'd call the hard core Railway modeller. Big named glossy express locomotives are the most obvious example but the B17 "Footballer' is another example of a back or perhaps side story to capture the buyer.

 

The hard core railway modeller looks at the issue of 'what's next' by thinking what engine could they produce that's the most useful or common on most people's historically based layout. I guess the answer is typically ubiquitous 0-6-0 goods engines but they lack the 'story' and so Hornby by pass those by, as we well know. The few H16's really ran to Ascot for race traffic or were shunting engines and aren't perhaps that useful for the dedicated SR modeller but I really don't think that bothers Hornby as much as the 'story' eg Ascot Race day. You can see the artwork for the boxed set it's 'glamourous' (well as much as trains are ever glamourous) to people who collect or buy Hornby, beyond what I call the hard core historical modeller.

 

I mentioned the big Southern tank as it's missing in the Hornby range, the other big four have had or now have, in the case of the GWR, big tank engines. I think this is more how Hornby think than how well the class performed or how widespread they were. I may be talking rubbish so feel free to ignore me!

 

I think the SECR H class is more likely to come from Bachmann than Hornby.

[Budgie]

I think the OP meant the multi-doored hauled stock that looked like the SUB stock. Some operated as loose vehicles and appeared in main line sets and also on the S&D.

 

Actually, I was referring to the Sub and EPB EMUs. Sorry.

[Sutton Junction]

Another one from me - ATW Class 67 with matching Mk2 & Mk3 coaches and DVT

[Ceptic]

I commented on this two posts above. Snip......, whereas I assume Budgie is referring to the multi-door stock as in the second photo down on this page (coach S5718S) http://www.semgonlin...h/bullco01.html

 

Yep, so did I.

 

It also raises the question as to whether Hornby are prepared to go the extra mile and produce a 59' multi-door 'Shorty' Bulleid set to compliment the low-windowed BR Maunsell SD 3-Sets. The U/F is already to hand under the P/P BCK

 

Good call.

[spackz]

Hard one to predict, but I enjoy trying as a bit of fun. Can't see past the LNER engines, but I feel something Southern will be on the cards, nothing for the GWR as they already have a good pool to choose from. The manufacturers are gradually moving north with the LNER types, something along the lines of a large A5/A8 tank, a K1 is the obvious choice, could they surprise us with a brand new V2 after Bachmann failed to upgrade the body.

[Guest Phil]

OK then - an LNWR coal tank

[bluex5]

Does the N15X use the same underpinnings as the standard N15?

[davidw]

Hard one to predict, but I enjoy trying as a bit of fun. Can't see past the LNER engines, but I feel something Southern will be on the cards, nothing for the GWR as they already have a good pool to choose from. The manufacturers are gradually moving north with the LNER types, something along the lines of a large A5/A8 tank, a K1 is the obvious choice, could they surprise us with a brand new V2 after Bachmann failed to upgrade the body.

Hornby could take advantage of Bachmann's poor decision with respect to the V2 body . However, they have had their fingers burnt over the 4MT and the B1 - great models though they are, I don't think Hornby will want to duplicate what's in the market.

 

It may happen if they're sure that the market can stand it. Personally I believe it could as the current V2 body is very poor and I'm reluctant to purchase. But if a V2 existed which matched the A3 - I be getting a few.

 

If anything comes to the ER - then it'll be a K1 - and I'd make use of a few!

[Shedmaster]

Hi all,

 

I wonder why nobody's mentioned an all singing, all dancing Class 71 ?

 

That would be my outside guess, but I ain't putting money on it !

 

Shed.

[Dagworth]

Hi all,

 

I wonder why nobody's mentioned an all singing, all dancing Class 71 ?

 

That would be my outside guess, but I ain't putting money on it !

 

Shed.

And 74?

 

Andi

[Guest Belgian]

Does the N15X use the same underpinnings as the standard N15?

No, they were totally different machines. However, the tenders were common.

 

The N15 was a Urie design for the LSWR modified by Maunsell for the Southern Railway. The N15X started life as a batch of six 4-6-4 'Baltic' tank engines for the LBSCR. When the Southern electrified the Brighton main line in 1933 the Baltics became redundant.

 

They had earned a good reputation on the Brighton one-hour trains so, rather than scrapping a relatively modern design, Maunsell stripped them of their side tanks and bunkers, removed the rear part of the frames and the rear bogie and set them to work on the Western Section alongside the N15s, nominally of a similar power and layout. To emphasise this they were given the designation N15X and Urie tenders.

 

Sadly, in their new guise they failed to perform well and were soon demoted to lowly work, finishing their days on the Basingstoke to Waterloo stopping services.

 

It may have been that they were inferior to the N15s or it may simply have been that they were so different to them, and so few in number, that the Western Section men never had the chance to get to know their characteristics and to adapt to their ways. We'll never know, but it has always struck me as odd that simply stripping them of their on-board fuel capacity without making any mechanical changes should have turned them from highly-regarded successful engines into dismal failures. It doesn't compute - there must be a story there to be told.

 

JE

[Guest Belgian]

And 74?

 

Andi

 

I don't think the 74s either sang or danced. They just sat down.

 

JE

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The N15X started life as a batch of six 4-6-4 'Baltic' tank engines for the LBSCR .. it has always struck me as odd that simply stripping them of their on-board fuel capacity without making any mechanical changes should have turned them from highly-regarded successful engines into dismal failures. It doesn't compute - there must be a story there to be told.

From memory, the recollection I have is that there were boiler pressure, mechanical and draughting changes to the loco; it doesn't take much in some ill-proportioning to take the 'edge' off a design. The boiler pressure was increased to 180 psi but still shy of the final Arthur value of 200psi, the cylinders were reduced in diameter to compensate, (and lining up cylinders can affect the all important porting of the valves). I believe the smokebox arrangments were revised to be standard with the Maunsell Arthurs too. Unlikely that these changes could be made 'dead right first time' to produce a loco as good as the Maunsell 'worked on' Arthurs which had been given a lot of attention to get them to perform. If they also encountered some prejudice against them as rebuilds, and gave a less than sparkling performance; soon enough they are the ugly sisters and elbowed aside.

[Shedmaster]

Hi all,

 

I wonder why nobody's mentioned an all singing, all dancing Class 71 ?

 

That would be my outside guess, but I ain't putting money on it !

 

Shed.

 

Forgot to mention the thinking on this was to do with previous NRM tie in's / commemorative editions, and yes of course then we could get to the 74 as well ?

 

Or am I confusing manufacturers here ?

 

Shed.

[ThaneofFife]

Hi all,

 

I wonder why nobody's mentioned an all singing, all dancing Class 71 ?

 

That would be my outside guess, but I ain't putting money on it !

 

Shed.

 

A lack of interest is what I suspect (notice I say lack of not complete absence of), although if a shock factor is what you want then certainly a 71/74 would create a stir but I am not sure if these would be another one of those models that would fall between the floorboards in the same way as the Class 28 Co-Bos seem to have done (not sure if the 10000 twins also fall into this category of wishing then not buying) - lots of initial interest but already seeing signs of the Co-Bos reduced to £100 could be a sign that people keep their money in their wallets now the models are actually out. Its southern which has taken off lately so I suppose it could stand a chance - I'm right on the fence on this one. Good out of field suggestion for something that hasnt been done yet (bar the kits) but tough to call.

 

Many of the replies here as far as new D&E models are concerned (if we can tear Hornby away from endless kettles this year!) seem to point to a penchant for a new detailed Class 87 or 90. The commonality certainly would create quite a catalogue of variants of the two classes with a degree of the "Design Clever" cost saving to be made using common parts. The again the Hornby/Limby models may be deemed fit to fight a few more years - its a really hard call. Somebody earlier mentioned that its too soon for them to gamble on a new AC electric after the Class 85 - he might have a point so this could be on the backburner........

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Somebody earlier mentioned that its too soon for them to gamble on a new AC electric after the Class 85 - he might have a point so this could be on the backburner........

Although, of course, it might be long enough since the Heljan Class 86 came out, and that's bound to have taken some sales away from the Hornby version. Maybe they're thinking of doing a new family of models that would include 86, 87 and 90, which would be nice. Plenty of lovely green & yellow Freightliner engines in there for me.

[Oldddudders]

I think the 71 and 74 are risky models, however well-executed, and will remain so until there is a rather bigger availability of SR EMUs. The 71s didn't do a lot off the South Eastern Division, and apart from the glamour trains like the Arrow and Night Ferry, were really used as freight haulers, for which OLE was erected in a number of yards and sidings.

 

The 74, as Belgian has hinted, was a design that flattered to deceive. After all, the 73s had found a niche and were deservedly popular with railwaymen all round - they could even go long distances off the juice, if handled sensibly. So the idea of a Super EDL sounded good. At the time, I was told the first example arrived at Eastleigh from Crewe, had a key put on it - and a loud bang resulted. Loco hauled back to Crewe! My belief is that they were never as successful or reliable as intended, and I suspect that the freight business with which they would have been linked was going down the pan, anyway. The 74s were used mainly on the South Western Division - and the Hornby VEP is the only EMU that really fits well with their use on the Bournemouth route. CEPs didn't get that way for many years, and I don't think 2-EPBs were common beyond the London suburbs.

[4630]

The 74s were used mainly on the South Western Division - and the Hornby VEP is the only EMU that really fits well with their use on the Bournemouth route. CEPs didn't get that way for many years, and I don't think 2-EPBs were common beyond the London suburbs.

 

In addition to which they only ever carried corporate blue livery so not much variation there either. Much as though I like 74s (hence my avatar) if Hornby was daft enough to produce one RTR I think we'd soon be commenting on another 'Hornby in profits warning' thread.

[phil gollin]

.

 

On the actual subject of "speculation" - I think the real problem will be how few "new mould" models will be produced. The hold overs from 2012 will mean that only 6 months odd ( ??? ) of production will be available for 2013 models. In addition we don't know how many problems there still are in getting the 2012 models to the marketplace and getting new factories up to speed.

 

So I would expect a spate of new liveries on those models where the relevant factory has capacity in their production schedule.

 

MY hopes are for more BR versions of Southern locos and the Bullied High-Windowed Coaches in BR Southern Region green.

 

So, I would "guess" only one "all new" loco, but masses on re-liveried locos and coaches. (Which Hornby loco can have the brightest pre-grouping livery ?)

 

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