RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 MY hopes are for [sNIP] the Bullied High-Windowed Coaches in BR Southern Region green. Tell me more? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 BTW what TIME on the 17th is the announcement? We've had no speculation about that yet. Do I need to set my alarm? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Jiff Kenobi Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I think I remember hearing that it's midday, but don't quote me on that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2012 . On the actual subject of "speculation" - I think the real problem will be how few "new mould" models will be produced. The hold overs from 2012 will mean that only 6 months odd ( ??? ) of production will be available for 2013 models. In addition we don't know how many problems there still are in getting the 2012 models to the marketplace and getting new factories up to speed. So I would expect a spate of new liveries on those models where the relevant factory has capacity in their production schedule. MY hopes are for more BR versions of Southern locos and the Bullied High-Windowed Coaches in BR Southern Region green. So, I would "guess" only one "all new" loco, but masses on re-liveried locos and coaches. (Which Hornby loco can have the brightest pre-grouping livery ?) . . I'm not sure I would agree with you there. New tooling requires toolmakers. If you have them then you need to use them or they become unemployed and/or go elsewhere... Of course Hornby may decide to "allocate" its toolmaking capacity to the International branbds rather than UK outline, but "all new" models will be in Hornby's plans for 2013 somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Tell me more? I got too excited - Maunsells ! Sorry . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 I got too excited - Maunsells ! Sorry Don't be sorry - I guessed! It's just that the Maunsells in High-Window and BR (SR) green have been out for some years, R4302/3/4/5/20/95 - is that really what you want? Did you mean Low-Window BR (SR) green? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusDe Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 A return to using steel rail in their track and Magnahesion across the loco range.... Angus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 On the actual subject of "speculation" - I think the real problem will be how few "new mould" models will be produced. The hold overs from 2012 will mean that only 6 months odd ( ??? ) of production will be available for 2013 models. So I would expect a spate of new liveries on those models where the relevant factory has capacity in their production schedule. So, I would "guess" only one "all new" loco, but masses on re-liveried locos and coaches. (Which Hornby loco can have the brightest pre-grouping livery ?) Yes we will see the delayed models in the 2013 catalogue with production through June at least. Yes we will see a number of reliveries. The Advent calendar shows a new B17 already (with more reliveries in the Advent calendar after the 17th I suspect). EDIT: The 2013 calendar shows reliveried T9. I'm not sure I would agree with you there. New tooling requires toolmakers. If you have them then you need to use them or they become unemployed and/or go elsewhere... Of course Hornby may decide to "allocate" its toolmaking capacity to the International branbds rather than UK outline, but "all new" models will be in Hornby's plans for 2013 somewhere. I agree - though I would broaden your definition to be the designers/draughtspeople what create the CAD specifications for the tooling. (It's my understanding that the tools themselves are made in China.) I think we can look to a modest number of new locomotive designs being announced (I say perhaps two or three) including one big item plus a new 'set' of coaches. As others have suggested, I think it's likely we'll see Hornby extend their delivery window from the calendar year. It's time. For 2012 they committed that everything in the catalogue would appear in 2012. While they were unable to meet that, I felt it was ambitious and certainly didn't count on it. Even Bachmann Branch Line, who as a subsidiary of Kader Holdings - their manufacturer, take more than a calendar year to deliver products, and sometimes take two years - like the Dukedog. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles73128 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I'm not sure I would agree with you there. New tooling requires toolmakers. If you have them then you need to use them or they become unemployed and/or go elsewhere... Of course Hornby may decide to "allocate" its toolmaking capacity to the International branbds rather than UK outline, but "all new" models will be in Hornby's plans for 2013 somewhere. Not sure that's true anymore! Scan subject, print in 3D, make mould from sample, simple. I wouldn't want to be a toolmaker..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi Miles You really couldnt be more wrong if you tried. The scan gives you data no different from a list of measurements etc. Even if the scan gave you the perfect copy (which it wont) what about how the parts fit together? How about getting it out of the mold? Theres so much more to it than you think. Photocopiers have not replaced artists. Laser scanners will not replace toolmakers. Thats 'simple' Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2012 Not sure that's true anymore! Scan subject, print in 3D, make mould from sample, simple. I wouldn't want to be a toolmaker..... Having heard on the national news today about 3D printing for a real steam loco part (Lake Bala Railway - smokebox door to be made in stainless steel, replicating the tiny, age related imperfections of the original), then yes I would agree about toolmakers. This printing lark sounds amazing. Is it the follow up to the lazer scan system that has been used in recent model production (e.g. Dapol)? P @ 36E Edit - having just seen Jim s - w's post I'm wrong then....glad really as I respect designers/engineers & their skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1023 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I'll join the growing ranks prediciting a SR 2-BIL. Other than that 3 or 4 new steamers, some pre-nat coaches and maybe a new modern wagon. Can't wait. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles73128 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi Miles You really couldnt be more wrong if you tried. The scan gives you data no different from a list of measurements etc. Even if the scan gave you the perfect copy (which it wont) what about how the parts fit together? How about getting it out of the mold? Theres so much more to it than you think. Photocopiers have not replaced artists. Laser scanners will not replace toolmakers. Thats 'simple' Cheers Jim Jim Well we will see. 3D printing will bring the democratisation of manufacturing to the public. I know automotive manufactures are looking at this closely. In the future (and not far) you not buy replacement parts for your car, you'll purchase the blue print and print the part at home. You think the internet was big? You aint seen nothing yet........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Well we will see. 3D printing will bring the democratisation of manufacturing to the public. I know automotive manufactures are looking at this closely. In the future (and not far) you not buy replacement parts for your car, you'll purchase the blue print and print the part at home. You think the internet was big? You aint seen nothing yet........ But that blue-print was drawn up in consultation with the one for each adjoining part. In the case of our model, then, before anyone can start manufacture, the relationship between each pair of items has to be specified. Which part has a hole and which a pin? What size? No amount of scanning the prototype can provide those decisions. Relatively easy to do with handrails, perhaps, less so with the mechanism and general fitting-together of the body and chassis. Technology remains just that - it cannot think yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Jim Well we will see. 3D printing will bring the democratisation of manufacturing to the public. I know automotive manufactures are looking at this closely. In the future (and not far) you not buy replacement parts for your car, you'll purchase the blue print and print the part at home. You think the internet was big? You aint seen nothing yet........ I know an automotive engineer who's company was looking closely at this well over a decade ago and showed me stuff he had printed that even now knocks spots off what we see on here in terms of quality. Its never about what things cost its about what value they have. Home printing wont be cheaper it will cost the same. It wont be more convienient to print the part yourself and fit it than to take your car to a garage and let them do it. Plus you certainly will struggle to get any kind of guarentee for it. The internet is a perfect example, you can get all the info you need to fix your car from the comfort of your home, order the bits and tools but have garages disapeared? No they havent. What about safety? Parts supplied have to be tested, do we really want to share the roads with people who have printed parts of the vehicles at home on a machine that might or might not have been maintained to the required standard. Which might or might not have used the specified materials and the parts themselves may or may not be 'official' in the first place? We will see but I hope I am not driving when it becomes a reality. As Oldudders says thats the manufacturing side anyway, the tools and parts still need to be designed and as with any new technology some will embrace it some will reject it. The better toolmakers will see the possibilities it opens up to them not the threat it brings. Theres one thing you can guarantee with 100% certainty though. If 3d printing and scanning truly makes other methods obsolete, as soon as they are gone and it becomes the only option available it will get very expensive, very very quickly. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Having heard on the national news today about 3D printing for a real steam loco part (Lake Bala Railway - smokebox door to be made in stainless steel, replicating the tiny, age related imperfections of the original), then yes I would agree about toolmakers. This printing lark sounds amazing. Is it the follow up to the lazer scan system that has been used in recent model production (e.g. Dapol)? P @ 36E Edit - having just seen Jim s - w's post I'm wrong then....glad really as I respect designers/engineers & their skills. Think this is what you're talking about? Here's some links below: http://blog.jaggeree.com/ http://blog.jaggeree.com/post/36346126193/printing-trains Wonderful stuff. Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 As interesting as 3D printing is, I don't think Hornby will be offering licensed, downloadable CAD data intended for '3D print at home' in their 2013 announcements, or anytime soon for that matter. It would, curiously enough, solve their supply chain problem. It might be an interesting business model for someone down the road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2012 The thing about 3D scanning is that it will only be 100% accurate if every single point on the visible surface is scanned. Sounds easy. In reality scanners sample points and algorithms decide what is between the sample points based on the surrounding sample points. The scanners also have to be moved around as you can't see all of an object from one single location. You then have the job of merging all the overlapping surveys to create the 360deg model. Errors creep in from all of these processes and require manual intervention to correct the surveys and make things join up - again a source of errors. This was shown to full effect in the Dapol Western thread whereby the scanned loco data didn't look 100% like the real thing. It took a few tweaks of complex surfaces before the sampling process and manual adjustment errors were worked out. 3D scanning is a great tool but not the infallible golden bullet folk think it is. Still needs lots of human brain and eye time before things look / feel right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 How have the sales of the Desiro been? Whilst it seems a well-regarded model, has it sold in sufficient quantities to generate further interest in the EMU market? I would like to hope so but we may have to wait and see. I know some Electrostars are dual voltage, are there any uints that regularly operate on both 3rd rail and OHEL? These would be obvious candidates if so. EDIT: - Just checked and the 375/377 units seem to offer the greatest range of operation for the minimum amount of new tooling. They cover Southestern, Southern and Thameslink services as some go out as far as Milton Keynes on the WCML so could run alongside Bachmann's Desiros quite nicely. And of course, who operates the Electrostars over in the Margate area, SouthEastern. So, logically a SE 375 would fit fairly nicely into Hornbys sector as it can run (just about) with the VEP, the 465/ Hornby produced 466 & the 'javelins' too, as well as running alongside Bachmann’s 350 - In Southern guise. The current (full-length) mk3's are now about 14/15 years old, having been introduced in the late 1990's. Now quite ancient in comparison with current output, although they have stood the test of time quite well. They could really have done with a re-tool when the new HST power cars came out, or shortly after. If people keep buying them, I can't see Hornby doing them at the moment though. No No No please no !!!! Unless we see a change in approach I'd rather Hornby left MU's well alone. The VEP is a disgrace for the present day; The Class 395 has been produced in both Railroad and main catalogue versions, but despite that, the main catalogue version is barely more than train-set fodder. Why oh why when there's a Railroad version in the range???? The Pendolino was obviously and understandably targeted at the train-set market; The Class 153 not up to modern standards, but quite passable once mods are made (like the snowploughs); I can't speak for the Brighton Belle.... ...however Hornby's other MU's are either rehashed old Lima models, or ancient tooling (Pacer, Networker). This is not a good track record and as such I wish them to steer well clear and leave it to others, who will at least attempt to produce models that are more aligned with the expectations that "modellers" have today. . True words there Ron. The 153 is ok for what it is, but it’s been at a similar price level to Bachmanns Class 150s for quite a while now – and although one is underpowered, the other is by far too overpowered (nice to see Bachmann admitting to this too, looking foward to future rectifications). Body wise it’s a good model though. Good point on the 156. I'd forgotten about that. The existing model died off with that very compromised Scotrail Saltire version. A model up to the standard of Dapols N gauge one would be very welcome. The presence of the n guage Dapol one might put Bachmann off as they could only recover tooling costs on the OO version as opposed to splitting it between GF and Bachmann Well, if last years? rumblings of Hornby’s use of Dapol’s CAD files for the 67 are close to the truth, what’s stopping Hornby from going up to Chirk and asking Dave for a copy to upscale their DMUs. Same could go for the 142 in that logic. Although if they did consider producing a all new class 142 or Class 156 – Id rather Hornby go down the route of Real track & Dapol’s motoring – and not sticking in that awful hidden revised ring field effort as used in the 153s. Another one from me - ATW Class 67 with matching Mk2 & Mk3 coaches and DVT True, although a Wrexham & Shropshire style set would be more up Hornby’s street – say 67002 & DVT, with either a separate coach pack or each coach sold separately. I’m not after much during the next year as most of my models will either have been resprayed by then or produced by Bachmann, Realtrack & Dapol, but i certainly wouldn’t mind seeing the return of the First Great Western Dynamic Lines Mk3s – As usual of Hornby, there’s still plenty of HST power cars on the market, as well as the odd few Mk3 Buffet Cars, but the TGS, TS & FO are rather difficult – and expensive for that matter! To get hold of, which leaves a rather incomplete HST rake here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 BTW what TIME on the 17th is the announcement? We've had no speculation about that yet. Do I need to set my alarm? 9am according to Hornbys' Facebook page. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 9am according to Hornbys' Facebook page. I've only seen midday GMT quoted on Hornby's Facebook page; that's certainly the official release time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi On the recent posts by others on the Hornby Facebook page someone has asked the question and it does say 9am for the launch. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 OK, I can see it now but I can assure you it will be midday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted December 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 14, 2012 I see no one has yet commented on todays advent calendar...... Mark 3 carriage W41056* with the comment, one for the Western Banana. Does this mean retooled Mk3 or a retooled AEC Railcar. The latter would dilute the market for Dapol, but duplication is not exactly new! *trailer first HST stock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 doubt it. the coupling is the same old, same old, so is the moulding and the clear glazing hasnt been changed either I see. it appears to be a simple renumber job on the existing open trailer to give matching stock for the forthcoming WR blue/grey power cars (i dont think these have arrived yet but have been announced some time ago). as far as the mk3s go, fitting NEM pockets would have been very welcome as a minimum although you then have the issue of retooling the bogies and possibly the underfloor area to allow a sprung mech for train set/tight curves. Could fit Symobas....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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