Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[Ian J.]

[coachmann]

A RTR model of the one-off Duke of Gloucester in the Britannia Class tradition might never recover its costs. I'm guessing that we're getting one only because Hornby is reducing the number of added-on components by moulding them as part of the body shell, and that Hornby might have been better off saying.... "You are getting 'Duke of Gloucester' but it is only viable as a 'Railroad' model".

 

Taking just two items, one-peice mouldings for the smoke deflectors with handrails is the least expensive route. Making a further mould for producing smoke deflectors with holes for handrail knobs, plus a tool for stamping out specially curved wire, plus manual labour for threading handrail knobs onto said wire before gluing it to the plastic smoke deflector, would add considerbly to the cost of production and be self-defeating. Even if such costs were passed onto the consumer, there is no guarantee enough people would buy the more expensive variant, afterall, proficient modellers would buy the railroad model and detail it themselves.

 

There appears to be some confusion as to the variants of DOG. This loco was built wth a BR 1E tender. It exchanged it for a BR 1J in november 1957. That tender remains with the loco to this day and so a 'as preserved' model differs little from when it was in BR service. I say little because ALL mainline steam locos today have had alterations to the back of the tenders to comform to current H&S regulations. The fact that the preserved loco performs far better in preservation has no effect on its outward appearance.

 

If all this has been covered already, I apologise and I'll grab me coat.......

[bigherb]

 

There appears to be some confusion as to the variants of DOG. This loco was built wth a BR 1E tender. It exchanged it for a BR 1J in november 1957. That tender remains with the loco to this day and so a 'as preserved' model differs little from when it was in BR service. I say little because ALL mainline steam locos today have had alterations to the back of the tenders to comform to current H&S regulations. The fact that the preserved loco performs far better in preservation has no effect on its outward appearance.

 

If all this has been covered already, I apologise and I'll grab me coat.......

They are doing it with the modified increased water capacity tender

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:71000_DUKE_OF_GLOUCESTER_East_Lancashire_Railway.jpg

[The Stationmaster]

Which is where it all falls apart Simon. £37 for a pack of details that other manufacturers throw in for free (save for some glazing).  I'm not convinced.

 

Which goes right back to my already expressed concern about what appears to be going to happen with this 'dual range' process.  The 'what you get for paying more' deal could backfire for the simple reason that its perceived value does not measure up to the price difference, therefore sales of the 'higher level of detail' versions don't go as planned/hoped therefore they vanish from the market 'because they don't sell'.

 

That, I know, might be a very black picture but equally it could, I think, happen although the proof of the pudding will be in what is delivered and perhaps a far higher standard of livery application might be the saviour?   We shall find out when the various new announcements arrive but, apart from the 'Star' from Steam, my only Hornby pre-order this coming year is one for the 'Grange' carried over from last year.  So my pre-orders for Hornby locos have dropped by 50% year on year and for now I'm joining the mugwumps sitting on the fence.

[coachmann]

Thanks bigherb. That's where a spot of modelling comes in removing that box with water filler, not that I need bother when DOG was only a twinkle in someones drawing pen in 1953...

[gwrrob]

 apart from the 'Star' from Steam, my only Hornby pre-order this coming year is one for the 'Grange' carried over from last year.  So my pre-orders for Hornby locos have dropped by 50% year on year and for now I'm joining the mugwumps sitting on the fence.

 

You don't fancy the 28xx in post war G W R then Mike ?

[edcayton]

Well, I don't think there will be a Railroad P2 initially. I think that they are staking their claim in the market so that they can be ready to go when the real one gets built.

 

Looking at the livery on the two Apple green Tornados I would pay the extra for the exquisite lining on the wheels alone, cos' I sure couldn't do it.

 

Ed

[Guest jim s-w]

That, I know, might be a very black picture but equally it could, I think, happen although the proof of the pudding will be in what is delivered and perhaps a far higher standard of livery application might be the saviour?  

It could well be, People pay nearly double the cost of SH Lima diesels for the same model in a red box with a nicer paintjob. Some believe the motor bogie is better too but not in my experience.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[frobisher]

Halfway down the page here Simon for a start http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/portal/ two clearly different (in many respects) shells for the DoG.  and not my imagination

That'll be the comparison shot of the DoG with the existing Btittania tooling then...

[Legend]

Hells teeth! Certainly there has been a lot of good points and requests for clarification made over the last 46 pages. Might I suggest that we are perhaps going round in ciircles now. What it does show is the need for good communication. And on this point if I'd have been Hornby I wouldn't have volunteered any information about design clever it's just led to confusion and speculation.

 

 

Might I suggest to avoid further speculation it might be a good idea for Simon to list the full spec of railroad and main range P2 ,DoG and Hall. Where is the moulded detail, which models have separate hand rails , what are the livery specs etc. only the full info will stop this, the people can go away and make their minds up. Going by past editions the catalogue with heavy photoshopping can't always be relied upon to give accurate information?

[Legend]

And by the way, how come I put paragraphs in my posts but they always appear as one massive paragraph?

[The Stationmaster]

You don't fancy the 28xx in post war G W R then Mike ?

My Western 2-8-0 quota is already full Rob (probably overfull to be honest as it includes a WD, 2 RODs, and 'a number' of 28XX/2884) - all I need is the layout to run them all  

 

As for design clever (sorry to mention it again) this is what Hornby said about it to their shareholders in the 2012 Interim Report published on 9 November 2012,  But first a caveat, an important one, do not overlook the fact that these are extracts, albeit verbatim, from the full reports and therefore they originally formed part of the context of them.  And that context is aimed very much - as ever - at reassuring and cheering up shareholders (and making sure that Directors and board members no doubt continue in their roles) - so read with a pinch of salt.  BTW this particular report appears to be the first appearance of the term 'design clever'  -

 

We are continuing to develop locomotives and rolling stock to our revised ‘design clever’ specification. This approach enables us to offer excellent value for money on products developed and priced at a slightly lower specification than our high detail products, whilst maintaining margins. This approach, already proven in the marketplace will enable us to accommodate, to an extent, the continuing trend of increased labour costs at our vendors in China.

 

While this is what was said about it in the 2012 Annual Report published in June 2012 (although it is not mentioned by name at that time) -

 

In addition, our new Flying Scotsman locomotive followed the success in the previous year of the Tornado locomotive. Both these locomotives are built to a high standard of authenticity whilst achieving a competitive price point. We will continue to develop this new market sector which is attuned to the more challenging economic conditions which we face.

 

And this is how it was referred to in the 2011 Interim Report published on 10 November 2011 - the words I have outlined in bold/underlined might be  particularly pertinent to various debates in this thread(?)  -

 

 In particular, sales of our new “Tornado” locomotive were very encouraging. This locomotive is designed and priced at a slightly lower specification than our high detail products, whilst maintaining margins. In the current economic climate it seems that a proportion of our hobby customers would prefer a slightly less detailed product, available at a more competitive price point. We will bear this in mind in shaping our future product development plans to meet the needs of those customers seeking high detail at higher price points and also those preferring lower price points with slightly less detail.

 

And it might also help to look at these words from the 2011 Annual Report published in June 2011 - 

 

We are expecting a healthy growth in Hornby model railway sales in the new financial year, driven by a number of exciting innovations. In July we expect first deliveries of our Tornado locomotive, based on the new steam locomotive of the same name currently operating on the UK network. Our model is based on completely new tooling and is built to a high standard of authenticity whilst achieving a mass market price point. We expect this introduction to create a new market sector which is attuned to the more challenging economic conditions likely to be prevalent for some time to come.

[Eggesford box]

Reading Mikes excerpts then my interpretation is that they have dipped theirv toe in the water with 'Design Clever' models with Tornado and have decided that this is the way to go for a large proportion of models. in these straightened times. Take into account also that manufacturing costs are rising, especially where there is the labour intensive adding of small details. Terrible these Chinese wanting a living wage!

 

It would be interesting to know the sales figures of Tornado compared to their other engines. I would imagine they must be encouraging for Hornby to produce another large green engine to a similar specification.             

 

As far as the black Trout goes. Sods law decrees that if you base the livery on what may be termed an educated guess then a pile of photos will appear showing that the details are not right. You can imagine the criticism and I would imagine Hornby will be somewhat wary given criticism of livery mistakes on some of their previous models.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Given the difficulty over getting the Trout out in what is probably the most in demand livery it carried, what's the prospect for the Blue Spot Fish vans? I seem to recall a fair number of photos in circulation. These are definitely Hornby's release of 2013 for me. Already got a nice ripe bit of haddie ready for that extra weathering dimension.

...So, I think I now understand the thorny problem, that it was every bit a dog as nailed together in the fifties, ...

 There's an account (by I believe Dick Hardy) of DoG getting an outing in the hands of an East Coast top link crew and performing as it should. Ironically Derby had managed to design a loco which performed like a Doncaster pacific. Driven by an LMR crew used to a turn and a half up from full gear, drive on the regulator and dump the coal in thick to the bottom of the firehole door, the poor thing wouldn't perform. With the gear wound in for short cut off on full regulator and a thin bright fire fired little and often, decent performance was available. The author was convinced that had DoG been placed on ER it would have gained a decent rep.; it was unrealistic to expect crews used to locos with very different characteristics to acquire skills for just one loco. Further development has delivered the full potential. (Hardy - definitely - also has an hilarious account of an LMR conductor driver on an A4 getting nowhere on 40% and the regulator barely open; until over ruled and shown what could be done with correct handling of a well designed locomotive.)

['CHARD]

For those returning to the thread after time off for good behaviour, the Trout was finally hooked in post 1063 and reeled-in by 1065.

 

I'm glad to read that last from 34C.  During my recent time in pursuit of self-enlightenment, it did strike me that Derby had basically cast a Doncaster Pacific in Standard threads, and that implied a syncopated beast with handling appropriate to such a thing.  No wonder it struggled where and how it was deployed.

[coachmann]

 

 

 

Why do I get the feeling that all this lead to a supposition that Hornby are gently explaining that 10% of a fifth is not the market that makes them money?

 

I know I keep saying it but Hornby's market is the trainset / transport enthusiast / causal buyer of stuff.... the part of the 1 in 20 that care "that much" will do something about it.....the other part will froth and foam till the cows come home

It puzzles me why people are so dismissive of railway modellers when the evidence on RMweb shows that Hornby has wanted to improve its models. Hornby is not an island; it has competition from Bachmann and other manufacturers, something it has never ignored when going head to head. Why else was Mike Trice involved with the LNER non-corridor coaches. I myself have been involved via a third-party and am proud of having moved the hobby forward a few inches in the past.

[Andy Y]

Here's an interesting perspective from Tony Wright who as a commissioned kitbuilder may have felt a pressure from RTR standards.

Regarding the debate on Hornby's 2013 announcements, may I add a few comments, please?

 

In my days as professional model-maker, I built many locomotives mainly from kits. Clients usually were those who'd like such-and-such a steam-outline model but couldn't build it themselves. Some might have had a go, but were too busy and weren't sure if they could reach a standard to their satisfaction. I specialised in making models of LNER/ex-LNER prototypes and thus, over the years, built the lot - from an 0-4-0T to the Garratt. If I were still building (in OO and EM), an A3/A4 say, would be quite a bit the 'wrong' side of £1,000.00, especially if the A3 were from DJH and the A4 from Wessex Pro-Scale. Much the same price as a current Golden Age A4, maybe more. This would include my purchasing of all that was needed, my time, plus a professional paint job. What do Hornby's A3s and A4s come out at price-wise? About ten times less? And, are they as good? Without doubt, though a bespoke paint job is a joy to behold. A kit-built B17 would be around £950.00 - £1,000, and just about be as good as Hornby's latest. A decade ago, I built a DJH Duke of Gloucester in OO for a friend. I charged him £500.00, and he did the painting. A re-build of an old K's P2 for another friend cost him over £400.00, including the painting but it wasn't very good.

 

So, what's my point? Firstly, anyone now (or in the near future) will be able to own models at least as good (or better) as those cited above, even if they're not skilled, and it won't cost them anything near as much. Secondly, because we've 'never had it so good', so much more seems to be expected now (and demanded?) in terms of detail and price RTR. Compared to what was on offer years ago, what you get for your money today in terms of the quality of product and relative value is outstanding. I know it's a long time ago but examine, say, a Hornby-Dublo Barnstaple alongside today's Hornby equivalent in terms of fidelity to prototype and relative price - allowing for inflation over the last 50-odd years the former would be well over twice the price! And, as a model, it doesn't compare. Perhaps some folk lose sight of things like this. If you think ancient history is irrelevant, you don't have to go that far back. Remember noisy tender drives, clumsy valve gear and split-chassis? And they weren't cheap.

 

As for less-detailed models. Though they might be compromised, the price will be lower, and it gives the individual an opportunity to upgrade if they wish by adding extra detail - something taken for granted just a while ago. Hornby's Railroad range, for instance, has been an ideal starting point for those who wish to do some actual modelling themselves.

 

We're told it's good to have a debate, and it is. Many are the opinions on this thread that are valid, based on knowledge and very useful. Simon Kohler would be wise to take on board some of these. But, have some of the more critical observers actually seen the models, rather than just mock-up pictures?

 

I'm sure some folk will see me as sycophantic, especially as I'm actually helping in the research for new models by Hornby (and Bachmann). However, we've now got (or getting) a range of RTR locos and rolling stock the like of which has never been better. In many cases the models are to a higher standard than most could achieve using kits, and they're a tenth of the price. Egalitarian standards are everywhere, everyone is more and more equal and prices in real terms have never been lower. Rejoice in the Cornucopia that's coming!

 

Apologies for the length of this post, and its being politically incorrect.

 

I've included some pictures to illustrate my point. Apologies for some having been used before...

 

The descriptions are included on each picture and visible by mousing over them. I'll let the readers decide as to what they think is best, bearing in mind that the kit-built examples will be at least ten times more in price.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gwrrob]

Very well put there by Tony Wright and the same points can be said about coaching stock especially if its kit built and has a pro paintjob, you're looking at £100 + per coach.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Mike

 

Is it fair to draw the conclusion, from what you have posted here, that Hornby have based their market expectations for the future, on the sales of a single item? One which by its celebrity nature could be called atypical? If this is the case then future history will show if design clever might actually be design suicide.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[coachmann]

Im not being "dismissive" as you put it of any one, Im merely pointing out that "modellers" are a tint fraction of the small train market...Its the other 80% of buyers that allow Hornby to make thier higher spec models, and when they do that all they do is get panned for not supplying "things" exactly as demanded by people who would struggle to wire a plug.

 

Apologies. To be fair, It is the modeller-market that Bachmann and Hornby has been chasing and very successfully too. There was no point in approaching the so-called 80% and asking them for prototype info and the like.

[Oldddudders]

Mr Wright indeed! His views echo those of our own Coachmann - that we've never had it so good. Surely we all know that - it's just that some of us seem to want it to get even better, or at least for the best standards yet achieved to become the norm. 2013 may not be the year for that to happen - if we want Hornby et al to survive. Whether your goal is the P2, the 2-BIL or DoG - let's see them in the plastic before panning them and Hornby, and I bet most of us will splash the cash, knowing that we'd never get within a mile of such quality even at several times the price.

[Dunsignalling]

It could well be, People pay nearly double the cost of SH Lima diesels for the same model in a red box with a nicer paintjob. Some believe the motor bogie is better too but not in my experience.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

I can only speak from experience with one example but I put a new Hornby chassis (and the glazing) from a remaindered Hornby 'Blue Pullman' 47 under an old Lima 'Special' George Jackson Churchward. The performance has been transformed out of all recognition.

[Guest jim s-w]

I kinda agree with what Tony says, in that We have never had it so good, but we said that 20 years ago too and we will do so again 20 years from now. Aside from Tony's post showing lots of lovely steam locos I am kinda missing why its relevant TBH.

 

The one point he makes which I agree with totally is this one (although I have been attacked before for saying similar)

 

"As for less-detailed models. Though they might be compromised, the price will be lower, and it gives the individual an opportunity to upgrade if they wish by adding extra detail - something taken for granted just a while ago. Hornby's Railroad range, for instance, has been an ideal starting point for those who wish to do some actual modelling themselves."

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Mickey

 

I have actually gone back to the Lima days recently.

 

20 years ago it was a lima 87 or Hornby 86 and a load of Airfix Mk2's - Now, its exactly the same with a bit more faffing about!

 

My lima 20's 31's, 47's and HST's as well as my mainline 56's have all been superceeded by newer models but with not enough of an improvement to make me want to replace them. I have no doubt the Bachmann 101 will be superb but i'll be sticking with my lima ones.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Having read all the above posts   I'm still concerned that the basic moulding of the front of the "Duke" is not as good/effective/realistic as that on the "Brit". This has nothing to do with separate parts/design clever or whatever.

 

It just doesn't look right; to me at any rate.