Hornby 2 BIL

[The Evil Bus Driver]

The 4Res units were capable of and indeed designed for service of a full plated meal cooked and served to a laid-up table.  They ran thus with full restaurant car service between Waterloo and Portsmouth for around 30 years.  The 4Gri cars were a step back from that level of service which was under-used by the 1960s.  What worked in the 1930s didn't cut it thirty years on.  

 

The 4Gri griddle cars could serve hot snacks in a buffet style environment rather than at waited tables and while they could be used for a full meal this was really beyond their design capacity and not what was intended.  They were from 1964 - 1971 on Victoria - Sussex Coast commuter services formed Cor-Gri-Cor whereupon the regular clientele would recover from their City day over a gin and tonic with maybe cheese on toast.  There was no need (and not really time) for a full meal on those trips. 

 

Gatwick Sidings were used as a staging point along with other locations including Barnham for these units as they were steadily taken away from the SR to Briton Ferry in South Wales (IIRC) for scrapping.  3142 was rescued from Barnham for preservation but not before a minor electrical fire had damaged one vehicle which was replaced with ex 6Res S11159 which had latterly run in 4Cor 3159 IIRC.

 

Didn't some of them have an Art deco style interior designed by Oliver Bulleid? He apparently had this idea that the public did not wish to see where it was going while partaking of refreshments, according to The Southern Electric Story (can't remember who it's by but it's in the attic. An excuse to go in there, methinks)

 

The BIGs were noted for providing hot buttered toast in the mornings, too. Yum.

[Natalie]

Didn't some of them have an Art deco style interior designed by Oliver Bulleid? He apparently had this idea that the public did not wish to see where it was going while partaking of refreshments, according to The Southern Electric Story (can't remember who it's by but it's in the attic. An excuse to go in there, methinks)

 

The BIGs were noted for providing hot buttered toast in the mornings, too. Yum.

 

The buffets with the Art Deco style interior as you put were indeed designed by Oliver Bulleid and were included in the 4Buf units (3073-85) ordered for the Portsmouth No.2 electrification scheme. The units had originally being ostensibly designed by Richard Maunsell but his retirement and the appointment of OVSB as his replacement coincided with the start of these unit's construction. One of Mr Bulleid's roles on the LNER prior was being in charge of coaches and he is credited as being instrumental in the commissioning of the Coronation and Silver Jubliee streamliner sets. He did not like the planned interiors of the BUF buffets and decreed that they should be redisgned internally.

 

There were large expanses of windowless sides around the kitchen and bar area 'so as to ensure greater privacy' to patrons. The interior walls had a 'scalloped edge' theme to them (pic on page 146 of Brown Vol 2). The edges of the saloon tables and bar were scalloped each serving one seat. Additionally the saloon tables were not arranged in the conventional manner ie in the traditional table with 2+2 seating on each side. Instead the tables were attached below each window and the four seats arranged around it- basically looking out of the window.

 

As the windows in the saloon were in an early form of double glazing and Stone's force pressure ventilation equipment was fitted no opening panels/toplights were initially provided. Experience soon proved that on hot days (remember them?!) they were found to be claustrophic and post WW2 were fitted with sliding ventilators.

 

A final feature of these vehicles was the fact that they were outshopped in plain malachite with Bulleid style lettering whilst the other three vehicles in the set were in lined olive green with Maunsell lettering. This was apparently to make them stand out from the rest of the train and draw attention to their facilities- sort of an early form of red cantrail stripe if you like.

 

The Bulleid catering vehicles story and his concepts are maybe better described if we consider the Tavern Car loco hauled sets which are certainly controversial vehicles depending on which view you take.

 

As I am still at Mother's at the moment (for my own welfare) I don't have my copy of Mike King's Southern Coaches book physcially with me to further relate their story- but think I have copies of the pages on one of the memory sticks with me. I shall take a nose and start a new topic as they are well off topic for here!!

Edited January 30, 2013 by Natalie

[Guest Belgian]

They're here! I've received an email from Hornby letting me know that I can buy the Southern Railway version (only) from them direct using their website. Who'll be the first with pictures and a review...

 

Hmmmm . . . looking at the 'features' on Hornby's page for the Southern version of the William I see that it has 'sprung buffers' and a 'five-pole, skew-wound motor'.

 

I thought these were features about to be dumped under the new 'design clever' regime. Perhaps it won't be as bad as we've all been led to believe.

 

JE

[SRman]

The motor bogie design is adapted from existing tooling and materials so still boasts a 'skew wound 5 pole motor', like the 4 VEP and 5 BEL units and also all the other variations of ex-Lima locomotives.

 

Bear in mind that the Brighton Belle was listed originally as having sprung buffers - it doesn't! I hope the BIL will have the sprung buffers as this will assist greatly with close-coupling units in multiple. I don't think this is such an issue for the Belles as not too many people can run two of them in multiple (ie 10 cars).

 

First one to receive their unit(s) is to report back here!!     

[Gwiwer]

Despite a few alarm bells ringing regarding 5-pole skew-wound motors there seem to be very few complaints about them in the Brighton Belle units and those who have seen early shots of the 2Bil have recorded favourable impressions including good slow-speed running and control.

 

Can we please have some nice motor hum on the sound chips and the satisfying clunk of doors being slammed shut?

[Oldddudders]

Despite a few alarm bells ringing regarding 5-pole skew-wound motors there seem to be very few complaints about them in the Brighton Belle units and those who have seen early shots of the 2Bil have recorded favourable impressions including good slow-speed running and control.

 

Can we please have some nice motor hum on the sound chips and the satisfying clunk of doors being slammed shut?

ISTR a sort of "warbling" component in the motor sound of one of these classes. Sadly I can't recall whether it was the EE motors in the BILs or the MetroVick motors in the LAVs. Anyone share my recollection?

[Gwiwer]

Warbling sounds to me like Metro-Vick equipment Ian.  It could be the same sound I recall from the Metropolitan T-stock which was also Metro-Vick fitted.  The EE gear under the Bils generated a hum rising in pitch as speed increased and falling as it dropped.  Then there was the somewhat musical dum-dum-dum-dum sound of the air compressor which again rose and fell at start and end of its cycle and - if you were lucky on a quiet run - you could hear the various clicks from the equipment behind the driver.

[Guest Belgian]

Many of us have been less than happy with some of Hornby's recent offerings, however now they have produced a model that  puts them well back on track. So lets be happy that this the case and remember we all had a chance to pre-order a 2BIL!

 

XF

 

Have you seen one then? What are they really like? (All I've seen are pictures and a video).

 

JE

[Re6/6]

Have you seen one then? What are they really like? (All I've seen are pictures and a video).

 

JE

 

Yes I have seen and handled an SR livery version . It is a superb model that captures the real 'heavy' look of the original.

 

For a comparison in quality it is every bit as good as the Hornby Maunsell coaches.

 

More snaps here:: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43107-ouse-viaduct/page-2

 

[The Stationmaster]

Had  look at one in the display case at MZ in Reading earlier today and am quite impressed.  While I know nothing about the bogie detail the body - albeit in full SR livery on the only one about so far - the body really captures these units as I remember them (livery difference apart that is).  The only thing which didn't look too good - and will show on many a model of course - is the roof ventilators which I thought looked a bit crude although the rest of the roof detail looked very good.

 

I'm not in the market too buy one, least of all in this livery, but it certainly brought back memories as they were the first emus I can really remember other than LT trains and were I not such a strong-willed and heavily commited to parts elsewhere person they would be very tempting to go on an outer are SR terminus in the Reading mould  And - being a bit contentious I appreciate - I don't reckon the price is too far off the beam for a well detailed (foregoing comments apart) 2-car emu to modern standards although it would be better if it included a packet of suitable roof ventilators .

[BG John]

I'm not in the market too buy one, least of all in this livery, but it certainly brought back memories as they were the first emus I can really remember other than LT trains and were I not such a strong-willed and heavily commited to parts elsewhere person they would be very tempting to go on an outer are SR terminus in the Reading mould  And - being a bit contentious I appreciate - I don't reckon the price is too far off the beam for a well detailed (foregoing comments apart) 2-car emu to modern standards although it would be better if it included a packet of suitable roof ventilators .

I must admit that the thought had crossed my mind for a moment too, as they (and the HALS) were the first trains I travelled on. Even though I later just used them to get to Reading to see proper Western Region trains, after I got interested in railways! Fortunately my modelling will be done on the cheap using what I already have for the foreseeable future, and I hope my new layout will cost far less than one Hornby BIL!

[BR(S)]

Some BR blue livery 2-BIL footage here:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi3De3HaCaU&feature=endscreen&NR=1

[Enterprisingwestern]

Some BR blue livery 2-BIL footage here:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi3De3HaCaU&feature=endscreen&NR=1

 

Not only invisible ink, but invisible film too.

 

Mike.

[phil gollin]

Was there a reason why the blue and yellow on the 2_BILs (and 4-CORs) faded so badly ?

 

.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Was there a reason why the blue and yellow on the 2_BILs (and 4-CORs) faded so badly ?

 

.

 I think it is the wooden bodies that cause this.

 

XF

[bazza.]

Oh dear!

 

I've just checked and re-checked, but the video clip and the CAD drawing on the Hornby 2013 Announcements topic clearly show that instead of lamp tops, Hornby have substituted small handrail knobs. The only correctly represented lamp tops being the moulded-on ones over the corridors.

 

I would not mention this except that in the Hornby video they actually draw the viewer's attention the separately applied roof detail. Well, if I were them, I wouldn't draw attention to knobs pretending to be lamps.

 

So this is 'design clever'? Yes, mould the ventilators and door handles on if it is cheaper, but why knobs on the roof?!

 

I just hope this is a pre-production stop-gap measure and production run will have the correct tops.

 

 

Colin

 

(Just wait until Miss Prism notices.)

[bazza.]

 

Oh dear!

 

I've just checked and re-checked, but the video clip and the CAD drawing on the Hornby 2013 Announcements topic clearly show that instead of lamp tops, Hornby have substituted small handrail knobs. The only correctly represented lamp tops being the moulded-on ones over the corridors.

 

I would not mention this except that in the Hornby video they actually draw the viewer's attention the separately applied roof detail. Well, if I were them, I wouldn't draw attention to knobs pretending to be lamps.

 

So this is 'design clever'? Yes, mould the ventilators and door handles on if it is cheaper, but why knobs on the roof?!

 

I just hope this is a pre-production stop-gap measure and production run will have the correct tops.

 

 

Colin

 

(Just wait until Miss Prism notices.)

Hi Colin,

 

You had me fooled! I thought that you were refering to table lamps shades which 2BIL's did'nt have.

 

I've just checked photos of 2 BIL roof details, and the items that you call lamps tops are correctly called conduit boxes which are in turn conected to the lamps holders inside the coach, the pipes on the carrage roofs that carry the electric cables that conect to the lamp fittings, are called electrical conduit.

 

Still a good enough model for me to order two of them from Honby.

 

Now any sensible ideas on how I can convert them to run on P4 ?

 

Bazza

[bazza.]

Unlikely as 2088 had a HAL trailer, but if Hornby did so, it would be very welcome.

 

Mr Monk, SM at Barnham in the accident report, later became a Relief SM, and used to relieve at Dorking North when I first worked there in 1966.

Hi Oldddudders,

 

Just a quick question to you, I am modelling Barnham Junction station in the late 50's to early 60's, and the last bit of information that I am looking for is for any information on the goods shed that was dismantled to build a car park in the early 60's. I belive that that the goods shed was originaly transported from Woodgate to Barnham Junction. Shame about the signal box, should have been left as an historical building. Have you worked at Barnham Junction?

 

Regards

 

Bazza

[Matabiau]

Recent changes on the Hornby trade website indicate the "Next Arrival into Hornby" for the 2-BIL units are as follows. This usually indicates when they will be released to us.

  R3161      week beginning 18th February

  R3162      week beginning 25th February (digital fitted one week beginning 18th)

  R3177      week beginning 4th March

 

Considering that the models appear to be at Margate, as a trader this is unacceptable! I hope that the newly input information is very wrong!

 

Why is this unaacceptable?  From the announcement of the 2BIL to being available to the "Traders" has to be one of Hornby's quickest releases!

 

XF

 

What is unacceptable, I take it, is that Hornby are favouring one retailer above all others by deliberatly withholding stock for general release. Even if Modelzone is a concession they receive a comission each time a model is sold and from the consumer's point of view they hand over their money to Modelzone, not Hornby. This appears very anti-competitive and legally dubious. It now seems that Hornby are generalising this practice with their 2013 releases as the BR 2-BILs will also see Modelzone getting the same favoured treatment as for the SR 2-BIL. If I were a retailer I would be very angry.

[Southernman46]

Some BR blue livery 2-BIL footage here:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi3De3HaCaU&feature=endscreen&NR=1

 

Thank you for sharing - there are some real gems on there - not least the 4-TC's being worked by standard 33's and the 4-VEP's being pushed by 73's and the images of Broad Street (just sublime).

[Oldddudders]

Just a quick question to you, I am modelling Barnham Junction station in the late 50's to early 60's, and the last bit of information that I am looking for is for any information on the goods shed that was dismantled to build a car park in the early 60's. I belive that that the goods shed was originaly transported from Woodgate to Barnham Junction. Shame about the signal box, should have been left as an historical building. Have you worked at Barnham Junction?

Sadly not. Don Monk used to relieve SM Harry Pawsey at Dorking North, where I started my career selling tickets. I then spent some time at Essex House DMO and was in the Control 1968-73, before moving to the South Eastern. There used to be a chap called Paul Clark, who worked in the Area Manager's Office at Barnham, then probably at Chichester, who was very knowledgeable about the area and wrote a book on the Chichester-Midhurst line. I have never met him, but if you find anyone who could put you in touch, he'd be most helpful, I think. He'd not be young, though, I suspect.

 

EDIT When I was a member of SEmG - actual membership gets you onto their Yahoo Groups list, so you converse with others and read lots of useful Southern stuff - there was a chap on there who worked for West Sussex CC in Chichester. I think there might be some useful stuff there, from things he said. Certainly in 1979 I was able to get prints of the orginal LBSC photos of the line opening Chi-Midhurst through them. Not worth not exploring, perhaps!

Edited February 7, 2013 by Oldddudders

[bazza.]

Sadly not. Don Monk used to relieve SM Harry Pawsey at Dorking North, where I started my career selling tickets. I then spent some time at Essex House DMO and was in the Control 1968-73, before moving to the South Eastern. There used to be a chap called Paul Clark, who worked in the Area Manager's Office at Barnham, then probably at Chichester, who was very knowledgeable about the area and wrote a book on the Chichester-Midhurst line. I have never met him, but if you find anyone who could put you in touch, he'd be most helpful, I think. He'd not be young, though, I suspect.

 

EDIT When I was a member of SEmG - actual membership gets you onto their Yahoo Groups list, so you converse with others and read lots of useful Southern stuff - there was a chap on there who worked for West Sussex CC in Chichester. I think there might be some useful stuff there, from things he said. Certainly in 1979 I was able to get prints of the orginal LBSC photos of the line opening Chi-Midhurst through them. Not worth not exploring, perhaps!

Thank you for you reply Oldddudders,

 

The person that you mentioned, Paul Clark, and the book that he wrote on the Chichester-Midhurst line, was that part of a series published by Middleton Press?

 

In New Zealand if all goes to plan, as usual we will not see the new Hornby 2 BIL models in our model shops for perhaps 6 to 8 weeks after every uk customer has purchased at least one for themseves and one for e-bay.

 

Regards from the sunny south east

 

Bazza

[Miss Prism]

When will the 2-BILs be reviewed in the model press? (The recent Modeller blurb didn't count as a review IMO.)

[John M Upton]

Enough of this off topic supplier issue nonsense (please take this tedious anmd repetitive discussion elsewhere) and back to what this thread is supposed to be about - the 2-Bil.

 

Having revived my 1960's shunting plank (well, blown the dust off of it anyway) I am looking at squeezing one or two BR era 2-BIL's on it.  At the moment I am considering having one in as supplied all green and adding a small yellow warning panel to a renumbered second.

 

When did the SYP's start appearing if I may ask?

[Oldddudders]

Enough of this off topic supplier issue nonsense (please take this tedious anmd repetitive discussion elsewhere) and back to what this thread is supposed to be about - the 2-Bil.

 

Having revived my 1960's shunting plank (well, blown the dust off of it anyway) I am looking at squeezing one or two BR era 2-BIL's on it.  At the moment I am considering having one in as supplied all green and adding a small yellow warning panel to a renumbered second.

 

When did the SYP's start appearing if I may ask?

I'd say '63-'64 on older EMUs.