Dapol Class 121 and 122 in OO gauge

[dibber25]

Like those Lima conversions! My Lima conversion models of the Savernake train are numbered as W51128 and W51141. At this distance in time I've no idea whether they are correct or whether they were guesswork as the model was done some years after the train ride. However, I do have those two cars underlined in my Abc, and I don't have many 116s copped.

Just checked again and I suspect they ARE guesswork because, on page 206 of the Abc, the ONLY vehicles underlined are W50870 and W 50923! Brilliant piece of detective work, Chrisf. Renumbering shouldn't be a problem as the decals appear to be coming loose anyway. (CJL)

[Dave47549]

  

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Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[fezza]

Roger Harris(?) has produced 3 volumes of DMU info in his 'Allocation history' series, and allocations are being added as & when to the railcar.co.uk site.

 

In the meantime, here's a list of allocations etc, mainly drawn from RCTS/Platform Five annuals: BUBBLE.pdf

Many thanks Dave. Great piece of work!

[chrisf]

Like those Lima conversions! My Lima conversion models of the Savernake train are numbered as W51128 and W51141. At this distance in time I've no idea whether they are correct or whether they were guesswork as the model was done some years after the train ride. However, I do have those two cars underlined in my Abc, and I don't have many 116s copped.

Just checked again and I suspect they ARE guesswork because, on page 206 of the Abc, the ONLY vehicles underlined are W50870 and W 50923! Brilliant piece of detective work, Chrisf. Renumbering shouldn't be a problem as the decals appear to be coming loose anyway. (CJL)

 

Funny you should mention 51128 and 51141.  They spent some time at Reading, having been there on loan at the time of the Slough accident in May 1959.  In about June 1961 they were allocated there with 118 trailer 59481, moving away to Laira at the end of the 1964 summer service.  This means that when I said above that Reading had no 116s at the time of your trip to Savernake and the photo I was mistaken and I apologise for misreading my own spreadsheet late at night!  However, I stand by my theory that the subject of the photo was as stated, for surely the set would not have still been running around with South Wales blinds three years after reallocation?  Or would it?

 

Now for 51128+51141 to have a different trailer they must first have been relieved of the one with which they were delivered to Bristol, 59438.  According to Trains Illustrated this coach was formed with 50086+50128 when they were fitted with an experimental final drive in mid 1959.  How long this formation was maintained I have no idea but it may be that this is what Johnster saw and remembered in his model.  59438 went to Tyseley at the end of 1963 and may have ended its days there.  Meanwhile, 51128+51141 were still at Laira in mid 1969, by which time they had acquired 59357 as a running mate.  Later still they ran with a 101 trailer.  I ought to mention at this point too that although Bristol was issued with three car sets it ran them as twos, threes and fours according to the CWPs of summer 1959 and summer 1961.  This does make tracking of formations rather difficult.

 

Brian's point above about the shade of green reminds me of an e-conversation he and I had years ago about paint darkening as it fades.  I was always a dunce at chemistry and still do not understand it but we have remarked recently on this thread about the way in which green comes out in colour photography and tends to darken further when printed on paper.  Beauty, I  suspect, is in the eye of the beholder and Specsavers can only do so much.

 

Chris 

Edited July 16, 2017 by chrisf

[The Johnster]

More pure gold, Chris.  This information confirms beyond doubt that my set is numbered wrongly, and needs digging out of it's store box at the bottom of the stack in the understairs cubby, and giving a good seeing to.  Or abandoning and converting to a 122 which could arguably be of some use on Cwmdimbath, of course.  The Limas based dmu doesn't stand up too badly against modern models for Limas, certainly a different beast from their risible 94xx (though the body moulding of that was ok) or the awful 4575 with the half relief express headlamps on the bunker , my cabs have flush glazing, and, so long as you keep it it spotlessly clean, it runs fairly well, though it does need a very light touch on the control knob to prevent attempts at the World Land Speed Record.

 

What is wrong with me?  I don't usually get ideas at this time of day, especially on Sundays, and that's not a bad one...

 

I'm on fire now; what about swapping the chassis of the DMS and TS to make a DTS to go with the 122.  Not sure this combination ever ran in the Bridgend valleys, but there was no railway to Cwmdimbath in reality either!  A Lima conversion 122 would be fairly unusual as well, as most people who converted to bubble cars before the rtr one was available used the 117's headcode boxes to represent 121s.

Edited July 16, 2017 by The Johnster

[St Enodoc]

More pure gold, Chris.  This information confirms beyond doubt that my set is numbered wrongly, and needs digging out of it's store box at the bottom of the stack in the understairs cubby, and giving a good seeing to.  Or abandoning and converting to a 122 which could arguably be of some use on Cwmdimbath, of course.  The Limas based dmu doesn't stand up too badly against modern models for Limas, certainly a different beast from their risible 94xx (though the body moulding of that was ok) or the awful 4575 with the half relief express headlamps on the bunker , my cabs have flush glazing, and, so long as you keep it it spotlessly clean, it runs fairly well, though it does need a very light touch on the control knob to prevent attempts at the World Land Speed Record.

 

What is wrong with me?  I don't usually get ideas at this time of day, especially on Sundays, and that's not a bad one...

 

I'm on fire now; what about swapping the chassis of the DMS and TS to make a DTS to go with the 122.  Not sure this combination ever ran in the Bridgend valleys, but there was no railway to Cwmdimbath in reality either!  A Lima conversion 122 would be fairly unusual as well, as most people who converted to bubble cars before the rtr one was available used the 117's headcode boxes to represent 121s.

Off topic, but the Lima 94xx body sits very nicely on a Bachmann 57xx chassis.

 

See http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro94xx.html.

[chrisf]

I learn something new from you pretty much every time you post, Chris.  Again, an assumption of mine is holed below the water line and the bulkheads are failing; this time it is the assumption that, because the number sequences of the sets as set out by Ian Allan in the Combined Volume seemed to be consistent, so that if you spotted a 3 car set the number you underlined was always in the same position in the list and tallied with the number you'd written down on the end of the platform, the sets had always been in their formations and were as fixed and immutable as the courses of the stars in the heavens.  I was disabused of the notion that this was not always the case once my spotting activities went 'off region', but it seemed to hold for the WR.  This encompasses spotting observations from late 1963 onwards.  I found this to be so reliable that I would feel confident underlining whole sets from just one spotted number, which sounds a bit dodgy in the light of this information!

 

And now I am worried that it looks as if modelled a set with the wrong numbers.  Ian Allen did not differentiate between styles of cab, and the '4 marker light' version without headcode boxes, 3 marker lights equally spaced across the lower front of the cab and a fourth above the destination blind box to replicate steam loco headcodes presumably, seems hard to find in photos to check.  My set is 51128/59439/51141, which you have as the third batch ordered for Bristol.  Presumably it should have headcode boxes and no marker light above the destination blind box.  Sets from all batches had found their way to Canton and were working on the Valleys services by the mid 60s, but it looks like I have wrongly numbered my 4 marker light cab train, which should be from the Cardiff/Newport batch to be working in the South Wales Valleys .  Yet I have, and have had for a very long time, a clear memory of the first 1958 sets at Cardiff having headcode boxes.

 

It is in storage at the moment so I won't be correcting it for a while, but it may well need lining as well.  I thought I knew what I was doing when I chopped up all those Lima trailers 35 years ago, but maybe not...

 

Don't beat yourself up.  It is perfectly reasonable to assume that dmu cars were maintained in strict formation but life ain't like that.  Human beings get involved and make decisions to which those outside the magic circle are not party or privy.  It may have been the case that sets were reformed rather than having to cape a train.  Quite how cars were interchanged between sets based at Cathays and sets based at Canton is a Good Question but it happened and the chances of finding out why nearly 60 years later are on the slim side.   If you would like more dope on set formations of yesteryear which will help you find a better set of numbers for your unit, let us do that by PM as we stray further from the thread topic by the minute!

 

As it happens, I think I know how you came to number your set as you did.  You may well have seen the set with the experimental final drive that I mentioned a few posts back and mistaken 50128 for 51128.  I recall being slightly fazed by seeing new units that were not listed in my abc!

 

Chris 

Edited July 16, 2017 by chrisf

[dibber25]

The most remarkable piece of DMU improvisation I saw, took place at Barnstaple - probably 1966 or 67. The train was a three-car Swindon Cross Country set (Class 120, dark green) forming an up working to Exeter. When it came time to depart there was clearly a problem. It transpired that the driver was unable to get the brakes off on the rear car. Eventually the rear car was uncoupled and the two remaining cars departed, the gangway of the buffet car flapping in the breeze. I assume a fitter was sent out to deal with the remaining car, which would presumably, once dealt with, have been attached to the rear of an up train for movement back to the depot. (CJL)

[Brian Kirby]

My Plan A was to repaint the Dapol 122 body into a darker shade of green, but that's gonna take hours, including re-lining, lettering and varnishing. Add to this the question of how easily the side windows will come out(?), plus we've already heard scary stories of difficulty removing the cab interiors, let alone the cab windows?

So for now, i've turned to Plan B, a quick fix, all done in minutes, - that's what I like to hear! I have diluted (with water or spit) some water-based black drawing ink, adding a spec of detergent to diffuse the weak solution, then merely brushed over the offending lurid base colour. This stuff dries in minutes, and if you cock things up, it just washes off with a damp cloth, and then you re-apply. The change is immediate and quite satisfying, the pea soup look is banished, and it takes the sting out of the lining at the same time. Any black sludge, streaks or watermarks are best left to dry (10 mins), then gently rubbed with clean dry tissue/kitchen roll. The whole job took just minutes with a No.3 brush, you can add successive coats to make it even darker, if you so wish. 

I've used the same ink neat in a dry brush method, for the "exhaust eyebrows" on the white domes. Beware of different drawing inks, Rotring make two types, this one comes in a plastic capsule and is non-permanent, their ink in the glass jars is a permanent type, and would need to be removed with more detergent. In the first two pics below, I have left the right-hand luggage end untouched, to illustrate the difference. I have removed the numbers on both sides now, and will be adding new numbers in due course.    BK

 

 

 

 

[dibber25]

Not sure why you'd make it darker? If anything it needs to be a tad lighter, particularly as this green weathered to a very pale matt finish. Then it got dirty. Sorry but I'm not convinced the black wash does it any favours. Just goes to show about personal perceptions of colour. Here's a shot of (M) 55010 at Leamington Spa. It's particularly filthy - unusually so - and although the dirt has darkened it (and thereby suggests I'm wrong) it's clearly darkened on a lighter base green. When using Railmatch early DMU green I usually added a small amount of matt white to give it that faded look. The other interesting thing in this shot is that it is coupled to a DTS which has had a repaint into the darker green - the difference shows up well.  (CJL)

[St Enodoc]

Not sure why you'd make it darker? If anything it needs to be a tad lighter, particularly as this green weathered to a very pale matt finish. Then it got dirty. Sorry but I'm not convinced the black wash does it any favours. Just goes to show about personal perceptions of colour. Here's a shot of (M) 55010 at Leamington Spa. It's particularly filthy - unusually so - and although the dirt has darkened it (and thereby suggests I'm wrong) it's clearly darkened on a lighter base green. When using Railmatch early DMU green I usually added a small amount of matt white to give it that faded look. The other interesting thing in this shot is that it is coupled to a DTS which has had a repaint into the darker green - the difference shows up well.  (CJL)

Nice photo Chris. Another interesting thing about it is the difference in appearance between the "M" prefix and the number - presumably due to a change in allocation at some stage.

[Brian Kirby]

Now you think the Dapol 122 should be even lighter than it is??? Thanks for showing the picture Chris, but I would say your M55010 depicted is still DARKER than my doctored repaint above. As supplied, Dapol's 55000 with whiskers, is a luminous avocado bath on wheels (with a rhubarb and custard interior). I would argue that my humble thinned black over-wash has brought the colour back into near enough the correct zone. I suspect these exterior and interior colours have put off a number of people from purchasing this particular version. The model is supplied in supposedly brand-new ex-works condition (1958), the photo on page 40 of the "Heyday Of The DMUs" book shows how dark it could have been, even allowing for alleged colour distortion, it cannot have distorted it that much? Enough of my opinions, what does everybody else think?

                                                                                              Cheers, Brian. 

[chrisf]

Nice photo Chris. Another interesting thing about it is the difference in appearance between the "M" prefix and the number - presumably due to a change in allocation at some stage.

 

Yes.  The allocation of Tyseley passed with the depot and the ex-GWR lines beyond Banbury into the London Midland Region at the beginning of 1963.  Chris's photo shows clearly the card bearing a three-figure number, nominally the set number, displayed in the driving cab window.  No model Tyseley unit is complete without one.

 

Chris

Edited July 17, 2017 by chrisf

[mevaman]

Here's a question!

 

Did NSE liveried 121s ever run in Cornwall? An earlier post suggests one on the Looe branch but I cannot find any photos.

 

Just trying to justify having one.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

[dibber25]

Now you think the Dapol 122 should be even lighter than it is??? Thanks for showing the picture Chris, but I would say your M55010 depicted is still DARKER than my doctored repaint above. As supplied, Dapol's 55000 with whiskers, is a luminous avocado bath on wheels (with a rhubarb and custard interior). I would argue that my humble thinned black over-wash has brought the colour back into near enough the correct zone. I suspect these exterior and interior colours have put off a number of people from purchasing this particular version. The model is supplied in supposedly brand-new ex-works condition (1958), the photo on page 40 of the "Heyday Of The DMUs" book shows how dark it could have been, even allowing for alleged colour distortion, it cannot have distorted it that much? Enough of my opinions, what does everybody else think?

                                                                                              Cheers, Brian. 

 

I think you must have got a different coloured one from the version I've got. Mine's not luminous. I don't like avocados but I've never seen one that color. Back to original comments about different people's perceptions of colour. (CJL)

Edited July 17, 2017 by dibber25

[Tony_S]

I think you must have got a different coloured one from the version I've got. Mine's not luminous. I don't like avocados but I never seen one that color. Back to original comments about different people's perceptions of colour. (CJL)

My perception of the model is much improved now that I have painted the floor black. I used some of my son's old Games Workshop paints so in fact the floor is Chaos Black. I dry brushed the seats with "Scab Red" to dull them a bit. I will look for something grey later for the top of the seats as suggested earlier. Goodness knows what that shade will turn out to be called. Then I will need to paint and fix a few passengers.

Tony

[Brian Kirby]

Thats a very interesting comparison and also shows that the Lima example stands up very well against Dapols. Did you alter the roof ribs/welds on the lima version as they look spot on whereas Dapols look a little heavy to me?

 

Will

Apologies Will, I forgot to answer this earlier. Regarding my Lima W55019 conversion, it's not a rebuild from Lima 117 shells, this is based on one of the late Lima issue, when they produced a RTR 121, before Hornby got their hands on it, but i'm sure you'd sussed that already. On a Lima 117, the roof welds are moulded proud as ribs, curiously on their 121, the weld joins were modelled as grooves(?). So as part of my conversion, I filled in said grooves and then rubbed it all down, this left fairly convincing lines/scars to represent the weld lines. I was replacing all the roof vents anyway, the 121s had ridged dome vents, the earlier 122 class had shell vents. NOTHING IN THIS POST CONCERNS THE Dapol 122!        BK

[Geoff Endacott]

Didn't BR change the shade of green by repainting them all with something which reflected light primarily towards the shorter wave end of the spectrum?

 

Geoff Endacott

[Caddy]

Finally received my speed whiskered green model yesterday. Brilliant model, runs beautifully and on my non digital layout lovely to have the lights front and back, reversing with direction and with only the front cab lit. Will fit all the bibs and bobs and lightly weather the underframe today.

 

As far as colour goes looks right to me. Dad took me to Didcot and Swindon in 1961 to see the Highworth Branch and some Kings before they all went. Travelled on and saw many DMU's between Birkenhead and Swindon and always remember how bright they seemed. In Swindon station itself, especially remember a very clean Grange came through with a van train, and how much darker green it was than a DMU standing in the platform. No help I know to the debate but as I say the Dapol colour looks right to me.

[cravensdmufan]

Still awaiting to see the Blue/Grey version "in the flesh" before I decide whether to buy, but looking at photos it doesn't look that brilliant TBH.

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/4D-015-001-OO-Gauge-Class-122-Bubble-car-55002-Blue-Grey%20livery

 

The panels of white lined rail grey look much too rounded at the corners which would irritate me and be almost impossible to put right. And the double arrow looks overscale.

 

Mybe the image on Dapol's site is a pre-production model?

 

Edit - Just seen a review in the latest Railway Modeller with an excellent side view of the blue/grey version. Grey panel corners look very curved and it definitely spoils what otherwise looks a good model.

 

I know it will still be a while to wait but I'd like to see what Bachmann do with their 121 - not sure if they will still make one now though?

Edited July 20, 2017 by cravensdmufan

[Roy Langridge]

Still awaiting to see the Blue/Grey version "in the flesh" before I decide whether to buy, but looking at photos it doesn't look that brilliant TBH. The panels of white lined rail grey look much too rounded at the corners which would irritate me and be almost impossible to put right.

Agree there, that rounded corner puts me off too. I am not good at details like that (hands no longer steady enough) so blue/grey livery is one I normally look to buy. Not in this case.

 

Roy

[John M Upton]

I have seen a production blue/grey one in the flesh and can confirm the first thing I noticed straightaway was the overly rounded corners to the grey.

[Geoff Endacott]

The Hatton's website shows the production model.

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/60362/Dapol_4D_015_001_Class_122_Gloucester_RCW_Bubblecar_single_car_DMU_55002_in_BR_blue_grey/StockDetail.aspx

 

Geoff Endacott

[The Johnster]

Finally received my speed whiskered green model yesterday. Brilliant model, runs beautifully and on my non digital layout lovely to have the lights front and back, reversing with direction and with only the front cab lit. Will fit all the bibs and bobs and lightly weather the underframe today.

 

As far as colour goes looks right to me. Dad took me to Didcot and Swindon in 1961 to see the Highworth Branch and some Kings before they all went. Travelled on and saw many DMU's between Birkenhead and Swindon and always remember how bright they seemed. In Swindon station itself, especially remember a very clean Grange came through with a van train, and how much darker green it was than a DMU standing in the platform. No help I know to the debate but as I say the Dapol colour looks right to me.

 

Red tail lights are not correct for a green liveried 122 or any dmu stock from that period.  They were intended to be provided by red shades that fitted over the white marker lights, but in the event the rear lights were not lit and a conventional oil tail lamp carried to show that the train was complete.  Glad you're happy with your model and hope I haven't spoiled things for you!  Of course I may have misunderstood and you may be referring to the white front marker lights changing direction, which is quite correct!

[chrisf]

Apologies for not getting back on this earlier but I have been in Bath today. It is good to see that photo again.  I believe I remember it from the Model Railway Constructor in the last century!

 

The Swansea/Neath display suggests a recent transfer from Cathays.  As posted a few pages ago, that depot's blind was not in alphabetical order.  The livery is that in which the unit entered service in 1958 but after six years's exposure to the elements and the addition of the speed whiskers by no means immediately after it entered service.  Before much longer it would have received a yellow panel under the cab windows but maybe it would have received the darker green livery at the same time.

 

As for the depot from which it was working, my understanding is that Reading had no 116s at that time but Bristol did.  When dmus were first deployed on the Reading - Westbury locals, by the summer of 1961, they were based at Reading and according to the carriage working programmes for both London and Bristol for this period were three car suburban sets.  Without access to the equivalent documents for summer 1964 one can only imagine that there had been a reorganisation of workings giving those jobs to Bristol sets outbased at Westbury.  At around this time Gerard Fiennes, General Manager of the WR, had the "bright" idea of trying to attract commuters but soon discovered that the dmus at his disposal were not up to the job.  In addition there had been service reductions in the Bristol area because the dmus had failed to attract additional custom and around Cardiff due to closures.  According to the Railway Observer, without which we would know nothing, four 116 sets [three 3-car and one 2-car] were moved from Cathays to Bristol at the beginning of the summer 1964 timetable.  Assuming, perhaps rashly, that the game of 'pass the trailer' was not played at Marsh Junction, the power twin in CJL's photograph could be 50870+50923.

 

 

A bit more digging has produced a couple of qualifications to the above.  Railway Observer for December 1965 has a list of WR dmu allocations, set formations and deployment as at October of that year.  It confirms that 50870+50923 were allocated to Bristol - phew! - BUT it suggests that responsibility for the Reading - Westbury local service remained with Reading.  The list also gives the numbers of two Class 119 power twins and three Class 121s whose duties included this service.  Clearly the unit in CJL's photo is neither of these but a 116 late of South Wales.  Then I found some items of interest on Robert Carroll's Flickr site.  One is a photograph of 50923 and another power car at Woodborough, which is quite near Savernake and also on the Berks and Hants.  This suggests that using a Bristol set on this Reading diagram was not a one-off.  The other was a photo of the other South Wales power twin, 50869+50922, at Newton Abbot in 1963.  This was news to me, since I had fondly assumed that both power twins were used on the Vale of Glamorgan line until its closure.  Clearly many moves and loans of dmu sets went unrecorded despite the best efforts of the RCTS!

 

Chris