Hornby P2

[melmerby]

Tony Wrights review noted a front slope on the chassis block, so maybe it has been developed with an eye to other members of the class at some point in the future.

 

I personally am waiting for my firemans breakfast with TTS version....

CoTN has a sloping smokebox top so the chassis block would have that anyway.

It looks to me as if the "Bugatti" front was just grafted onto what was already there.

 

Keith

[gr.king]

Putting aside the previous hot debate about the politics / economics behind the grossly delayed release of these models, now that I at last have my hands on an example of the Railroad loco I can only reiterate my much earlier thoughts about it being ASTOUNDING value for money, whatever it might not have that some of us feel it ought to have! Mine runs absolutely superbly, and the crispness of finish is well up to modern standards. The sharpness of detail and trueness of shape of the basic body moulding is fully up to the highest quality and is vastly better than that of some of the old-tooling Bachmann bodies that still sell (under a fancy coat of paint) to numerous modellers who somehow fail to see anything wrong with them.

I was surprised to see something that I've not noticed any mention of so far: Self-coloured, moulded plastic, very fine handrail knobs for the separate metal boiler handrails. I straightened one and it didn't snap, so they may be not such a bad idea given the current extra cost of turned ones and the brittle nature of those cast in muck-metal.

 

Roll-on the super-detail version.

Edited August 31, 2014 by gr.king

[S.A.C Martin]

Just idle curiosity here, but have they made the tooling so that they can do the later locos (and the early ones as modified) with the streamlined A4-style front ends?

 

I - personally - on very close (very dismantled!) inspection don't believe so, and will explain why in my review on my blog later in the week. Most of it is down to the necessary new tooling that would need to be done. Conversions are not out of reach, at all, but RTRs of the other P2s seem unlikely to me (sorry). I don't think Hornby would look at the financial aspect of the model being retooled and find it viable.

[micklner]

I - personally - on very close (very dismantled!) inspection don't believe so, and will explain why in my review on my blog later in the week. Most of it is down to the necessary new tooling that would need to be done. Conversions are not out of reach, at all, but RTRs of the other P2s seem unlikely to me (sorry). I don't think Hornby would look at the financial aspect of the model being retooled and find it viable.

Cant see your logic Simon.

If Hornby can get more Locos from the mouldings with little modification I can't see any reason why they wouldn't make them . I presume the front end of C of N is separate  moulding ? If yes , a new Bugatti nose or in Marischal case extra deflector, new valve gear and attach the various Tender type ( which already exist) job done. They have done it with the A1, A3 and A4 without problems as variations designed into original mouldings.

 

With a little imagination they can make a further 13 locos , Original shape 2002 (only needs deflector and valve gear) , Twelve Bugatti nose versions in Green and Black liveries, so quite a good choice to make C of N.

 

All would be sellers IMHO.

[robmcg]

I beg to differ Simon, I think Hornby are well-capable of tooling an A4-style front end, but will not do this immediately because of their need for immediate income. What complicates it maybe is not the dimensional issues you so ably demonstrated in your thread some time ago, but the valve gear differences in the other class members   oops written simultaneously with micklner

 

I have a new pic in my head, and the wherewithal to put it together today, but still wait for the 'clunk' of a box from Hattons on my doorstep.  My pic will be based on bits of my various existing images stitched together.  Fun.

 

typo edit

Edited August 31, 2014 by robmcg

[S.A.C Martin]

Cant see your logic Simon.

If Hornby can get more Locos from the mouldings with little modification I can't see any reason why they wouldn't make them . I presume the front end of C of N is separate  moulding ? If yes , a new Bugatti nose or in Marischal case extra deflector, new valve gear and attach the various Tender type ( which already exist) job done. They have done it with the A1, A3 and A4 without problems as variations designed into original mouldings.

 

With a little imagination they can make a further 13 locos , Original shape 2002 (only needs deflector and valve gear) , Twelve Bugatti nose versions in Green and Black liveries, so quite a good choice to make C of N.

 

All would be sellers IMHO.

 

The weight designed into the model prevents a new front end being bolted on for Earl Marischal, as it fills the cavity behind the sloped front.

 

This also precludes the bugatti nose variants with this specific weight tooling - it goes too far forward. I am not suggesting conversions are not possible by filing or removing the weight entirely but simply putting a new bugatti nose onto the Hornby body won't fit.

 

The cylinders are a whole new moulding and previous types on A4/A3 which would have been suitable for other P2 variants don't look like they will fit.

 

The cartazzi is not a roller bearing type so no.2007 would need a new tooling in this area.

 

Hornby haven't tooled the P2 up like they did the A4 and A3 before it and it looks to me like the model - in both body shell and chassis - has been tooled up specifically for 2001 and 2001 alone - just as Tornado was tooled up specifically to make models of Tornado (but has been used since for inaccurate models of other A1s).

 

The front end moulding is separate to the rest of the body shell due to manufacturing restrictions, I suspect, and not for different variants. There is no advantage in doing this as both halves of the body shell are still specific to 2001 only.

 

So to recap - the 2001 body shell is extremely specific - as built and for a very limited period of time in its life.

 

To make any of the other variants you are looking at, a minimum, of two cab types, four firebox/boiler types (washout plug arrangements and combustion chambers) and of course, the same bugatti nose but with details specific to only 4 maximum out of 6 (due to single/double chimney and certain by pass valve arrangements).

 

The valve gear itself is pretty easy I would have thought to sort - walschaerts valve gear - which was standard to all six at the end of their lives.

 

As for tenders - if they've tooled up a new tender specifically for the Railroad 2001, it stands to reason they'd do exactly the same for any future Railroad P2s. There is therefore no saving on reusing existing tooling.

 

So to make, say, no.2006, you need a new weight component, a new tender, valve gear and a whole new body shell. With financial problems and manufacturing problems still hanging over their heads - do you see another variant of the class P2 appearing any time soon, if at all?

[Coldgunner]

I think 2007 is feasible at least, paired with the Tornado tender.

[S.A.C Martin]

I think 2007 is feasible at least, paired with the Tornado tender.

 

The Tornado tender frames at any rate, with a new body shell on top.

[69843]

I can say, on high authority from the P2SLC, that No.2007 is to be modelled.

[Bon Accord]

2007 is apparently on the cards as a LE for the P2/A1 crowd.

Regarding 2002, it did run for a spell without the extra deflector. Ergo a change of valve gear and lack of feed water heater is all that's required to produce it.

[69843]

If I remember, it's more complex than just a nose job and a bit of joggling to the running plate, as No.2002 (and the later semi-streamlined variants) had a lower running plate.

 

And as to the number of variants that can be made of the P2, it must be remembered that they ran in the war years without front valiance covers in front of the cylinder, same as the A4s

Edited August 31, 2014 by 69843

[S.A.C Martin]

I can say, on high authority from the P2SLC, that No.2007 is to be modelled.

 

It probably will be: but to what specification, we won't know as yet. If Hornby go the whole hog they will need to tool up a P2 die cast chassis with roller beating cartazzi. Quite a big part of the overall chassis make up. If not they will ignore it and simply re-livery their 2001 tooling.

[69843]

It probably will be: but to what specification, we won't know as yet. If Hornby go the whole hog they will need to tool up a P2 die cast chassis with roller beating cartazzi. Quite a big part of the overall chassis make up. If not they will ignore it and simply re-livery their 2001 tooling.

I do hope they do it properly, otherwise it would be seen as a bit of a blow to those that would like a decent model of 2007.

 

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand, and I do look forward to acquiring a P2 for myself once I get the chance.

[S.A.C Martin]

*Roller bearing.

 

Again, damn iPhone autocorrect.

[69843]

Ah, the wrath of autocorrect....

[robmcg]

while we wait for 2001 in fully lined livery...

 

Edit; ...and how can a company in this day and age produce a model resembling this for 100-odd pounds? (some slight liberties taken with editing, but virtually no change to detail on model, guard irons and lamps are about the only things added.)

 

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

Edited September 1, 2014 by robmcg

[bigwordsmith]

Last year I met Mark Allatt of the P2SLC who told me he had been assured by Simon Kohler that they did plan to produce a Bugatti version.

 

Of course that was before the refresh of Hornby's management so anyone's guess is as good as any other. They;re not going to say anything in a hurry in case people defer buying CotN in favour of a Bugatti version.

 

AS and when it does arrive, I wonder how many will suddenly be found chuffing around ECML layouts in Brunswick green?

[bigwordsmith]

@Rob Have you looked into the idea of getting that pic produced as a large print- preferably the sort with raised paint? I'd buy one, and I think you could find that as you;ve created it you have a chunk of copyright in the image.

[Steffi_C]

@Rob Have you looked into the idea of getting that pic produced as a large print- preferably the sort with raised paint? I'd buy one, and I think you could find that as you;ve created it you have a chunk of copyright in the image.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to PM Rob and ask him to quote you a price?  I'm sure he'll be happy to accommodate you.

 

"Raised paint", well, there's no accounting for taste I suppose.

[S.A.C Martin]

Last year I met Mark Allatt of the P2SLC who told me he had been assured by Simon Kohler that they did plan to produce a Bugatti version.

 

Of course that was before the refresh of Hornby's management so anyone's guess is as good as any other. They;re not going to say anything in a hurry in case people defer buying CotN in favour of a Bugatti version.

 

AS and when it does arrive, I wonder how many will suddenly be found chuffing around ECML layouts in Brunswick green?

I'm not doubting the intentions, I'm questioning the tooling as it stands. There's quite a lot of new components needed - more than I expected.

 

I think conversion to a Bugatti nosed variant won't be entirely difficult but it has been made difficult for the modeller.

 

I'm not a model engineer or a designer so please feel free to take my view with a pinch of salt, but the model doesn't seem to have been designed with producing other variations with tooling up lots of new pieces.

 

That's not a criticism of Hornby, mind, simply managing my own expectations and being realist about the prospects of a streamlined one appearing.

[bigwordsmith]

@Steffi - I raised it here n case anyone else feels the same way. I didn't express the 'raised paint' thing well I've sine found out the technique is called 'Print on Canvas'

[Hroth]

Here's a photo of 2001 thundering over the Forth Bridge (from the frontispiece of Odhams "The Worlds Railways and How they Work")

 

 

Good, eh?

 

[micklner]

The weight designed into the model prevents a new front end being bolted on for Earl Marischal, as it fills the cavity behind the sloped front.

 

This also precludes the bugatti nose variants with this specific weight tooling - it goes too far forward. I am not suggesting conversions are not possible by filing or removing the weight entirely but simply putting a new bugatti nose onto the Hornby body won't fit.

 

The cylinders are a whole new moulding and previous types on A4/A3 which would have been suitable for other P2 variants don't look like they will fit.

 

The cartazzi is not a roller bearing type so no.2007 would need a new tooling in this area.

 

Hornby haven't tooled the P2 up like they did the A4 and A3 before it and it looks to me like the model - in both body shell and chassis - has been tooled up specifically for 2001 and 2001 alone - just as Tornado was tooled up specifically to make models of Tornado (but has been used since for inaccurate models of other A1s).

 

The front end moulding is separate to the rest of the body shell due to manufacturing restrictions, I suspect, and not for different variants. There is no advantage in doing this as both halves of the body shell are still specific to 2001 only.

 

So to recap - the 2001 body shell is extremely specific - as built and for a very limited period of time in its life.

 

To make any of the other variants you are looking at, a minimum, of two cab types, four firebox/boiler types (washout plug arrangements and combustion chambers) and of course, the same bugatti nose but with details specific to only 4 maximum out of 6 (due to single/double chimney and certain by pass valve arrangements).

 

The valve gear itself is pretty easy I would have thought to sort - walschaerts valve gear - which was standard to all six at the end of their lives.

 

As for tenders - if they've tooled up a new tender specifically for the Railroad 2001, it stands to reason they'd do exactly the same for any future Railroad P2s. There is therefore no saving on reusing existing tooling.

 

So to make, say, no.2006, you need a new weight component, a new tender, valve gear and a whole new body shell. With financial problems and manufacturing problems still hanging over their heads - do you see another variant of the class P2 appearing any time soon, if at all?

Interesting as I won't be seeing one until the upgrade issue.

 

I haven't seen a Drawing of the dimensions of the P2 variants. I had presumed they were all the same length, from what you have said the Bugatti nose versions were shorter or the nose lies lower ? How has the Cartazzi truck been made ? part of the chassis or separate as the A3/A4's, if as part of the chassis poor forward thinking , the same would apply for the chassis block as well.

 

ta for info 

[Ian Hargrave]

A telepathic event....or sheer timely coincidence ?Today being the 1st September,I have just turned over to the new month on the Bachmann Collectors Club calendar which hangs on the wall above my pc.It is a reproduction of a painting by Malcom Root of 2001 leaving Grantham with an express.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Ian Hargrave

[will5210]

Interesting as I won't be seeing one until the upgrade issue.

 

I haven't seen a Drawing of the dimensions of the P2 variants. I had presumed they were all the same length, from what you have said the Bugatti nose versions were shorter or the nose lies lower ? How has the Cartazzi truck been made ? part of the chassis or separate as the A3/A4's, if as part of the chassis poor forward thinking , the same would apply for the chassis block as well.

 

ta for info 

According to my Isinglass drawing, Streamlined version was 9 inches longer. 

 

I think Hornby would need a whole new body to produce the Bugatti nosed version. The later cabs were different, running plate was higher & the split in the Cock O the North moulding is in the wrong place to just plug in a new nose. The Bugatti nosed P2's boiler cladding started tapering at the boiler band before the dome cover & I'm informed the split is just behind the smokebox - 2001 & 2002 had no tapering (not downwards anyway)

 

Cheers