Level crossing stupidity...

[lmsforever]

Amazing  how trams are suddenly becoming the answer for travel problems especialy in the UK  .I can rembember networks all over the country. But the bus became the answer with no attempt to modernise the networks. Can you imagine new trams in London and other towns also trolleybuses should have been kept and modernised.All in all  things went badly wrong in the fifties when with thought they could have provided us with good town transport not the mess we now have.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Amazing  how trams are suddenly becoming the answer for travel problems especialy in the UK  .I can rembember networks all over the country. But the bus became the answer with no attempt to modernise the networks. Can you imagine new trams in London and other towns also trolleybuses should have been kept and modernised.All in all  things went badly wrong in the fifties when with thought they could have provided us with good town transport not the mess we now have.

 

There are always those who regret the advance of modernity. I came across this just now whilst following an internet whim:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

[melmerby]

44 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Amazing  how trams are suddenly becoming the answer for travel problems especialy in the UK.

Unfortunately the Midland Metro is off the road again for at least 4 weeks due to more cracks being found in the vehicles:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-59261154

[Wickham Green too]

43 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

.... Can you imagine new trams in London ....

 

[Nick C]

48 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Amazing  how trams are suddenly becoming the answer for travel problems especialy in the UK  .I can rembember networks all over the country. But the bus became the answer with no attempt to modernise the networks. Can you imagine new trams in London and other towns also trolleybuses should have been kept and modernised.All in all  things went badly wrong in the fifties when with thought they could have provided us with good town transport not the mess we now have.

On much of the continent they were never removed - certainly in Poland (just to quote an example I know), almost every medium to large city has either trams, trolleybuses, or both. 

[lmsforever]

In the fifties we had the idea that the USA was wonderful and they had cars so we had to follow if we had kept all the networks the Glasgow junket would be half way there for Britain.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, lmsforever said:

Amazing  how trams are suddenly becoming the answer for travel problems especialy in the UK  .I can rembember networks all over the country. But the bus became the answer with no attempt to modernise the networks. Can you imagine new trams in London and other towns also trolleybuses should have been kept and modernised.All in all  things went badly wrong in the fifties when with thought they could have provided us with good town transport not the mess we now have.

Ah, but not one that could be easily chopped up into digestible chunks and distributed among the government of the day's paymasters.....

 

John

[melmerby]

On 12/11/2021 at 20:00, lmsforever said:

In the fifties we had the idea that the USA was wonderful and they had cars so we had to follow if we had kept all the networks the Glasgow junket would be half way there for Britain.

Early in the 20th century the USA had vast networks of interurban electric railways, some stretching hundreds of miles, far more ambitious than our mainly local enterprises.

They virtually all succombed to the auto.

 

Here's Indiana & Ohio's network:

 

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=41530900

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by melmerby

[PhilJ W]

22 hours ago, Titan said:

There is a saying, "it aint stupid if it works"  However in this case I think there was a bit more luck involved than there should have been...

 

9 hours ago, Nick C said:

Nothing wrong with the recovery itself, using an elastic snatch rope like that is SOP in motorsport and 4x4 recovery, but there should have been nobody on the ground within at least two cable-lengths of the operation. 

I recall at a 4X4 event a Range Rover got stuck and someone with a Land Rover attempted to pull him out with a bungee cord attached to the tow hitches of each vehicle. The bungee cord was at full stretch when the tow hitch of the Land Rover parted company with the rest of the vehicle. The hitch went through the back window and out through the windscreen of the Range Rover taking part of the ear of the driver with it. A couple of inches to the right and he would have been decapitated.

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Before a civil war breaks out here, can I just remind you all that Birmingham has more miles of canal than Venice, so one should expect superiority in other forms of transport too.

I don't think trams in Venice would be a good idea.

[Titan]

If trams go backwards are they smart?

[roythebus1]

Indian Railways had an extensive metre gauge network, now mostly converted to Indian Broad Gauge. Got a footplate ride on a metre gauge YP many years ago, very impressive. but nothing to do with level crossings.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Amazing  how trams are suddenly becoming the answer for travel problems especialy in the UK  .I can rembember networks all over the country. But the bus became the answer with no attempt to modernise the networks. Can you imagine new trams in London and other towns also trolleybuses should have been kept and modernised.All in all  things went badly wrong in the fifties when with thought they could have provided us with good town transport not the mess we now have.

 

Trams are seen as the answer in many cities because survey after survey PROVES that motorists are very unlikely to give up their car for a bus as they perceive bus travel to be a distress purchase and something only the poor / students do. Motorists on the other hand are far more open to switching to a train and modern tramways have successfully tapped into this vibe and as such local authorities see modern tramways as something to be championed.

 

However its important to note that every modern tramway system in the UK manly uses 'off street' alignments. Ex railways are preferred as by their nature said alignments do not involve mixing with private cars and pedestrians thus allowing higher speeds and a more reliable performance. The next level down is where the corridor is wide enough to provide a dedicated tramway alongside, or in between the traffic lanes - thus preventing the trams getting stuck in congestion and providing a degree of protection from dumb motorists and absent minded pedestrians. The worst type of tram setup is where it needs to mix it with general traffic and is liable to suffer badly performance wise due to road congestion so usually this was restricted to traversing city centres as means of avoiding performance issues though it is true that Sheffield and laterly Manchester both have lengthy urban street running sections on one of their routes.

 

If you take a look at most of the traditional UK tramways (i.e. the ones shut down between the 1930s and 1950s) they were very different beasts. Mixing with general traffic was the norm with very little opportunity to provide a dedicated tramway. They were for the most part totally unsuited to use as part of a modern tramway system - which is why schemes to bring a tram back to the heart of London (Google the 'Cross River Transit Scheme') failed.

[phil-b259]

42 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

I recall at a 4X4 event a Range Rover got stuck and someone with a Land Rover attempted to pull him out with a bungee cord attached to the tow hitches of each vehicle. The bungee cord was at full stretch when the tow hitch of the Land Rover parted company with the rest of the vehicle. The hitch went through the back window and out through the windscreen of the Range Rover taking part of the ear of the driver with it. A couple of inches to the right and he would have been decapitated.

 

Which is why you don't use a 'bungee chord' you use what amounts to a non elasticated fabric sling as fitted to cranes and capable of holding very heavy weights!

[phil-b259]

And back to level crossings!

 

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/network-rail-how-car-gloucester-6191518

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

 

I recall at a 4X4 event a Range Rover got stuck and someone with a Land Rover attempted to pull him out with a bungee cord attached to the tow hitches of each vehicle. The bungee cord was at full stretch when the tow hitch of the Land Rover parted company with the rest of the vehicle. The hitch went through the back window and out through the windscreen of the Range Rover taking part of the ear of the driver with it. A couple of inches to the right and he would have been decapitated.

 

Not surprised as Land Rover user and risk assessment would hardly be used in the same conversation.........................

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Trams are seen as the answer in many cities because survey after survey PROVES that motorists are very unlikely to give up their car for a bus as they perceive bus travel to be a distress purchase and something only the poor / students do. Motorists on the other hand are far more open to switching to a train and modern tramways have successfully tapped into this vibe and as such local authorities see modern tramways as something to be championed.

 

However its important to note that every modern tramway system in the UK manly uses 'off street' alignments. Ex railways are preferred as by their nature said alignments do not involve mixing with private cars and pedestrians thus allowing higher speeds and a more reliable performance. The next level down is where the corridor is wide enough to provide a dedicated tramway alongside, or in between the traffic lanes - thus preventing the trams getting stuck in congestion and providing a degree of protection from dumb motorists and absent minded pedestrians. The worst type of tram setup is where it needs to mix it with general traffic and is liable to suffer badly performance wise due to road congestion so usually this was restricted to traversing city centres as means of avoiding performance issues though it is true that Sheffield and laterly Manchester both have lengthy urban street running sections on one of their routes.

 

If you take a look at most of the traditional UK tramways (i.e. the ones shut down between the 1930s and 1950s) they were very different beasts. Mixing with general traffic was the norm with very little opportunity to provide a dedicated tramway. They were for the most part totally unsuited to use as part of a modern tramway system - which is why schemes to bring a tram back to the heart of London (Google the 'Cross River Transit Scheme') failed.

Melbourne, Australia has one of the largest tram systems in the western world, which fortunately never succumbed to bus replacement on any of its system. Some of it is on reserved tracks, but certainly not all of it.

 

In fact, Melbourne trams were never really challenged, until the Lonie Report (called Loony obviously, by many because of the plan to close down the lot - think Beeching).

 

Largely because the MMTB actually had a very strong leader (Major General Risson) for years, who wasn't afraid to call out attacks on his system. Pity more cities didn't have leadership like his.

 

https://apo.org.au/sites/default/files/resource-files/2014-04/apo-nid213836.pdf

[Hobby]

15 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

To return that phrase to context, the wording was "BTW Birmingham & Black Country trams are/were 3' 6" gauge (IIRC the largest 'NG' network in the world!)" - so trams were definitely in his mind .... though maybe he left it open to misinterpretation !!?!

 

I agree, Wickham, I read it as relating just to trams, as he'd have surely known that there are some massive NG railway networks out there... However i also said in a later post that I suspected many of the Continental metre gauge tram networks would have been bigger than the Black Country network in their heyday, so perhaps just the largest NG tram network in the UK is the safest bet!

 

 

 

[Hobby]

On 08/11/2021 at 19:03, Titan said:

on a gauge near as makes no difference the same as the Talyllyn...

 

Those extra 3 inches make a heck of a difference in what you can transport on the railways. 2ft 6ins / 760mm /750mm gauges are believed to be the narrowest gauge where you can safely transport SG vehicles on transporter wagons or bogies so there is a big difference between the Polish 750mm railways and the Talyllyn!

[Hobby]

To try to put the tram debate to some sort of conclusion I've been trying to find out lengths/gauges but it's proved rather difficult. There's a list of all current tram systems and their lengths and gauges on Wiki but the closed list is not as helpful, lacking that information, nor do they give much history.

 

The Birmingham Corporation Network was just over 80 miles (129.6km) and Wiki lists it as the 4th longest network in the UK and the largest NG tramway network in the UK (they haven't said the World or even Europe).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Corporation_Tramways

 

The Stuttgart network is currently 131km and SG but was converted from metre gauge around 40 years ago so that at least would seem to have been longer in NG form (it might well have had additional lines now closed, but I can't find out). It also has many similarities to the BCN in that it serves several towns in the area as well as the main city and it's suburbs.

 

Of the closed ones I picked one at random, knowing the city quite well, Aachen, and found that it was metre gauge and it's route length was 181km and was the fourth largest in Germany, so that's probably put it to bed simply with that statistic!

 

Talking of Polish networks the current longest NG network (metre gauge) is in Lodz at 124km, but again I can't find out if that was the limit of the network or if they've closed some lines over the years which would have made it longer.

 

Put it this way, our current UK networks are peanuts compared with the rest of Europe!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tram_systems_by_gauge_and_electrification

[Wickham Green too]

Lets put this argument to bed with the largest extant narrow-gauge tramway system in the British Isles : - 

 

 

..... well, the Irish Standard Gauge is 5'3''  -  so the Luas must be narrow ! 

[Hobby]

Gawd, not that old chestnut yet again! 

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

 

The Birmingham Corporation Network was just over 80 miles (129.6km) and Wiki lists it as the 4th longest network in the UK and the largest NG tramway network in the UK (they haven't said the World or even Europe).

 

 

Does not anyone read what I posted?

Since when has Birmingham Corporation been Birmingham & Black Country? They were all connected.

Add Dudley & Stourbridge, Wolverhampton and Walsall, that's another 50 miles all part of one system.

 

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Does not anyone read what I posted?

Since when has Birmingham Corporation been Birmingham & Black Country? They were all connected.

Add Dudley & Stourbridge, Wolverhampton and Walsall, that's another 50 miles all part of one system.

 

 

As you (I think) said, all the way to Kinver. 

 

Likewise the canals - if one takes the entire Birmingham level...

 

And since when has Wolverhampton been the Black Country, for that matter? Walsall is doubtful, too. It really was an Interurban system, connecting numerous distinct metropolises, each with its distinct dignity.

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Does not anyone read what I posted?

Since when has Birmingham Corporation been Birmingham & Black Country? They were all connected.

Add Dudley & Stourbridge, Wolverhampton and Walsall, that's another 50 miles all part of one system.

 

 

But it wasn't part of ONE system, though, it was several separate systems which were interconnected. That's how it's measured, on individual systems, for instance, Birmingham, Walsall, Wolverhampton all being separate entities. All the railways in that area were all connected as well but that doesn't make them the same network, just interconnected. Many places in Europe are the same.

 

Can you show me your evidence is for your claim, please.