GWR Toad Brake vans

[Neal Ball]

There is often a call from Great Western modellers for a new 00 gauge GWR Toad Brake van, but if one was to be produced, what should it be and to what level should it be finished. Personally, I would like to see an end to moulded handrails and DCC fitted working lights, but clearly that comes at a price. Then of course there are loads of different lot numbers / designs, so many it is probably easier to look here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html

 

 

This unbranded Toad Brake van was photographed at Minehead, which is probably No 68765 Probably an AA20 van.

 

Or here:http://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/4000369511/ - On the Severn Valley, branded as Slough No 68501

 

A quick scan across Flickr, shows Toads of a similar design, with non that I could see of the external bracing.

 

How far would you go for that ultimate Toad....

 

Lamps - front and rear is obvious, but would you also pay for the side lamps? with lights showing to front and rear. (No idea how it can be done in the size, but it would be nice!)

 

Anyway food for thought ahead of the 2013 MRE / RMWeb Poll

 

Different vans have been added to the Poll over the last couple of days. To change your vote, take the option to delete your votes and then vote again.

 

Here's looking forward to some new Toad brake vans being released next year!

Edited June 5, 2013 by Neal Ball

[Kev_Lewis]

I'm very surprised that no one has yet produced a smaller Toad, such as the 16 ton AA3, in 4mm RTR. They would be perfect for a typical GWR branchline. The 20 ton Toad which both Bachmann and Hornby have produced would more typically have run on the mainline.

[Coach bogie]

Hornby Dublo produced a shorter toad fifty years ago. The body can be fitted to a shortened Ratio/Bachmann chassis without any difficulty.

 

Personally I like the olds K's toad kit which is very accurate. Easy kit to assembly and it is designed for separate handrails.They still appear on a regular basis. My last one cost me £5 from a trader at last years MIddlesbrough show.It was painted and lettered -all I had to do was change the coupling. Bargain!

 

The Ratio kit can be cut and shut into many variants. I have a series of articles saved from one of the 1970's model mags covering various conversions.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

I'm very surprised that no one has yet produced a smaller Toad, such as the 16 ton AA3, in 4mm RTR. They would be perfect for a typical GWR branchline. The 20 ton Toad which both Bachmann and Hornby have produced would more typically have run on the mainline.

 

Is that really true in late GWR/BR(WR) use? The majority of relatively modern vans were 20T. I don't recall seeing many photos, even of branch lines, with anything smaller (except in the valleys where the absorbed vans were still around).

 

You can always use the Triang/Hornby Toad...

 

Adrian

[Penrhos1920]

Working side lights would be great but I think it is almost impossible to do them properly in 4mm.  As each side light should show white forward and red backwards.  This I've managed to do on a couple of brake vans.  But what I haven't managed is to make the red lamps switchable which is sometimes required.  There is a story in the Harold Gasson books where he slammed the brakes on because the guards van on the adjacent running line was showing tail lights that indicated it was on the same track as the express Harold was firing.

[Penrhos1920]

Now then.  The AA3 sounds an interesting idea for Bachmann or Hornby.  It wouldn't be too much extra to add an enclosed veranda and stable doors for the Severn Tunnel vans, or enclosed veranda and full height door for a Permanent Way van.  One model - three models.  they should like that.

[Il Grifone]

The Dublo van, while a crisp moulding is unfortunately too long for a 16T van and too short for a 20T. (In fairness the underframe does date back to the thirties and was intended for 15" curves). IIRC it is also too wide. However, it's considerably better than Tri-ang's effort which is still listed, or, at least, was until recently.

 

Really, at present we have the Airfix/Hornby R-T-R or Ratio kits (it's a pity they are both hybrids of various diagrams) or the K's kit (if you can find one and you locos are strong enough to pull it). (The moulding on the Manline/Bachmann van is rather crude IMHO.)

[Neal Ball]

Interesting to see the number of requests for working lights is so low. Obviously not as popular an idea as I thought. :-(

 

I see also that 4 people have said "another type of AA van" which one?

Edited March 26, 2013 by Neal Ball

[southern42]

I'm just learning about Toads (and wagons) so to have the chance to vote for something I know not a lot about is really good.

Thanks for the thread, Neal.  I know a little bit more, now.  Will follow this with interest.

Polly

[The Fatadder]

For me the handrails are the all important thing, having got half way though removing the moulded ones on a ratio kit and a Bachmann rtr (a complete pig to avoid damaging rivet detail, its certainly a job I'd love to avoid)

 

Lights etc would be a lot easier to retrofit, and I'd prefer without to keep the price a bit more sensible. 

[Kenton]

 

I see also that 4 people have said "another type of AA van" which one?

In the tradition of GWR of producing a diagram book and then prototyping something different - AA8 ? - both the original two and their much later, slightly different (enough to notice on a model) replacements.

 

But I guess Pontnewynydd is not that popular a modelling branch

Edited March 26, 2013 by Kenton

[Penrhos1920]

.....also that 4 people have said "another type of AA van" which one?

 

There are two different designs I'd like:

 

1) one of the predecessors of the Bachmann/ratio AA20 such as AA13 or AA15 which were both built in large numbers but look different in the detail - axleboxes, springs, buffers etc.

 

2) the early wooden framed vans that were 'rebuilt' into AA16

Edited March 26, 2013 by Penrhos1920

[DavidR]

How about a Toad with a smoke unit in it? has anyone tried it?

[46444]

Nice idea this thread and I like the pole idea.

 

I was one who voted for another AA type and I'd go for an AA13 like the one below in the picture. I hope that caption is right?

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj100b.htm

 

If not I'd settle for an AA3.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[kandc_au]

Working side lights would be great but I think it is almost impossible to do them properly in 4mm.  As each side light should show white forward and red backwards.  This I've managed to do on a couple of brake vans.  But what I haven't managed is to make the red lamps switchable which is sometimes required.  There is a story in the Harold Gasson books where he slammed the brakes on because the guards van on the adjacent running line was showing tail lights that indicated it was on the same track as the express Harold was firing.

What about using fibre optics.

You still use a red and white led that swith with polarity.

 

Khris

[The Stationmaster]

What about using fibre optics.

You still use a red and white led that swith with polarity.

 

Khris

Which won't solve the problem unfortunately as they have to be changed from red to white (and vice versa) whichever direction the van is heading.  In fact the switching requirements for the sidelights are quite complex if they are done correctly because each lamp has to be individually controllable from red to white (or vice versa) and to 'off' (='obscured').  Not an easy task without DCC or some sort of switching arrangement on the vehicle itself.

[kandc_au]

Which won't solve the problem unfortunately as they have to be changed from red to white (and vice versa) whichever direction the van is heading.  In fact the switching requirements for the sidelights are quite complex if they are done correctly because each lamp has to be individually controllable from red to white (or vice versa) and to 'off' (='obscured').  Not an easy task without DCC or some sort of switching arrangement on the vehicle itself.

Because I am DCC illiterate I cannot comment, but as for direction, the lights could be controlled with diodes(?) which would give white one way and red the other. The issue of some being off would have to be controlled by switches....or for the literate one's, probably with a number on their DCC controller

 

Khris

[southern42]

  In the tradition of GWR of producing a diagram book and then prototyping something different - AA8 ? - both the original two and their much later, slightly different (enough to notice on a model) replacements.

 

But I guess Pontnewynydd is not that popular a modelling branch

 

Don't know how popular the Brentford branch is for modelling [http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrentford.html] but I'm trying to find out about the Toads that went along it.  I'm guessing that there would have been a variety as most would have arrived from somewhere along the mainline.

This thread is turning out to be a fount of information so hope it continues a while yet and, hopefully, I'll end up with a couple more Toads that will fit the bill.

A Southall 16 Ton Goods Brake Van. Built in 1889 to diagram AA3. http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/low.php?xp=media&xm=667444

 

Polly

Edited March 27, 2013 by southern42

[Kenton]

 

Don't know how popular the Brentford branch is for modelling [http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrentford.html] but I'm trying to find out about the Toads that went along it.  I'm guessing that there would have been a variety as most would have arrived from somewhere along the mainline.

The most likely candidates for Brentford would have been one of the "Acton" 13t toads (AA7) - another candidate for a RTR?

 

12 vans were built 1898 (lot number 206) and given running numbers 56985-56996, they were built specifically to operate in the London area where the space in headshunts was at a premium and where train lengths (loads) were light. With a 9ft wheelbase and only 16ft o/h they were comparatively dinky up against the 20t. All were allocated to Acton though likely to be seen over GW rails elsewhere in London.

 

There is a good 7mm kit from the Connoisseur stable (though sadly lacking a sold floor and designed in compensation).

[southern42]

Thanks, Kenton.

 

Here's the link to the 0 gauge kit.  You're right , it is dinky! 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Wagon%20Kit%20Pages/GWR%2013%20Ton%20Toad%20Brake%20Van%20AA7.html

 

3mm kit for 'BATH': http://finneyandsmith.co.uk/finneyandsmith/etched%20wagon%20kits.html

 

With a 4mm kit no longer available I'd welcome a RTR version.

 

Polly

[Adrian Wintle]

Because I am DCC illiterate I cannot comment, but as for direction, the lights could be controlled with diodes(?) which would give white one way and red the other. The issue of some being off would have to be controlled by switches....or for the literate one's, probably with a number on their DCC controller

 

Khris

Stationmaster wasn't as clear as he could be - there are situations where you want the rear-facing sidelight to be white, so diodes just won't cut it - you need some form of controllable switch. It could be DCC, or you could use a reed switch under the roof and a magnetic 'wand' (the same way Rapido Trains does with their lighting boards for their North American coaches).

 

Adrian

[kandc_au]

Stationmaster wasn't as clear as he could be - there are situations where you want the rear-facing sidelight to be white, so diodes just won't cut it - you need some form of controllable switch. It could be DCC, or you could use a reed switch under the roof and a magnetic 'wand' (the same way Rapido Trains does with their lighting boards for their North American coaches).

 

Adrian

Thanks for that...NOW I see the issue..........sorry Mike!

 

Khris

[unravelled]

Regarding the lamps, how about designing a tension lock compatable coupling which would detect when something was coupled to it? This could operate red/white switching, and disable lamps if  the van was coupled both ends.

 

Dave (silly ideas R us)

[Miss Prism]

I'd be happy with an updated plastic kit for AA11/13/15. Alternative parts could be provided for planked/sheeted sides/ends, springs, footboards etc.<br /><br />Dear Mr Parkside...

[Ozexpatriate]

Interesting to see the number of requests for working lights is so low. Obviously not as popular an idea as I thought. :-(

Neal, thanks for running this poll. It is a good one. It's interesting to see what people collectively think.

 

I'm with you on the subject of lamps! I'd love to see them and as much as side markers would be nice, I'd settle for a red lamp case on the uncovered end.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Ozexpatriate