GWR Toad Brake vans

[Il Grifone]

Another K's 16T kit just listed on eBay

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ks-Keyser-GWR-20T-Toad-Kit-/400510515865?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item5d40497a99

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

Interesting. I don't know what's supposed to be 'deficient'. That's all you got

in a K's wagon kit! We'll ignore the description as 20T.

[Garethp8873]

Hey guys, I have just sent two Bachmann GWR Toads to a friend of mine to have done up with alternate names to what they currently have on them. First one I was thinking of having done as a Laira Toad and I was wondering whether Didcot would be possible on the second?

[Garethp8873]

Anyone help me with the GWR Toads please? It would be most appreciated.

[Miss Prism]

I can's see anything wrong with either a 'Didcot' or 'Laira' branding. Look at http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html to find some diagrams, numbers and dates. (The Bachmann model is an AA19.)

Edited July 18, 2013 by Miss Prism

[Garethp8873]

Hello guys,

 

Thought I would share some photos of one of my latest wagons; the GWR AA6 PW Toad Van. I recently purchased this from the ebayer who I purchased the GWR Tool Van off a few months before. It is a scratchbuilt wagon which has been made from two GWR Toads. Cannot tell if they are Mainline or Bachmann but it is has been well built. Very faithful to the prototype, of which the last surviving example (40362) is at the Severn Valley Railway at the Kidderminster Station Museum.

 

Garethp8873.

 

 

 

 

 

[Coach bogie]

Three unbuilt K's toads just listed on eBay

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Gauge-Unbuilt-Kit-Suit-Hornby-Etc-Ks-Keyser-GWR-14-Ton-Brake-Van-Kit-/400549631913?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item5d429e57a9

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Gauge-Unbuilt-Kit-Suit-Hornby-Etc-Ks-Keyser-GWR-14-Ton-Brake-Van-Kit-B-/360716916676?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item53fc6757c4

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Gauge-Unbuilt-Kit-Suit-Hornby-Etc-Ks-Keyser-GWR-14-Ton-Brake-Van-Kit-C-/360716916797?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item53fc67583d

[jayell]

I have a possible need for a AA1 24 ton 6 wheel Toad, there is a Peco kit for a 7mm one, Soutwark Bridge Models do a 4mm but it is £35 which is a bit steep for model to sit on a static diorama. 

 

jayell

Edited August 11, 2013 by jayell

[Coach bogie]

I have a possible need for a AA1 24 ton 6 wheel Toad, there is a Peco kit for a 7mm one, Soutwark Bridge Models do a 4mm but it is £35 which is a bit steep for model to sit on a static diorama. 

 

jayell

 Falcon Brass £18.85

 

http://www.falconbrassworks.com/list.php?range=GWR

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Coach bogie]

I have a possible need for a AA1 24 ton 6 wheel Toad, there is a Peco kit for a 7mm one, Soutwark Bridge Models do a 4mm but it is £35 which is a bit steep for model to sit on a static diorama. 

 

jayell

 

Six wheel 24 ton on eBay this week

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350912029387?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

along with another built up K's small van

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350912018649?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Armstrong440]

I recently investigated commissioning a kit to build a 4mm AA3 with lots of refinements to raise it above the level of current Coopercraft / Parkside fare.  Included would have been alternative axleboxes, alternative buffers, provision for planked or sheeted sides, separate handrails, and built-in compensation.

 

All of this was done in plastic as I wanted a kit that would be within the capabilities of the average builder - someone who is scared of brass and soldering irons - but which would also appeal to the finescale brigade.  So not only could a 10-year-old make a decent fist of it, but a P4 modeller could effectively build it out of the box and plonk it straight on his layout.

 

I was discouraged by the moulder I was consulting, because the price of the kit would have been at least £20 including wheels and bearings.  I feel that such a kit would justify that price, but I doubt it would sell in sufficient numbers to recoup costs.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Armstrong440

[Miss Prism]

For viable plastic moulding, it's a bit like this, isn't it?

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

For viable plastic moulding, it's a bit like this, isn't it?

 

price-v-volume.png

 

Should the vertical axis read either 'Quality/price' or 'Fidelity/price'?

 

When you think about £20 nowadays for an all singing, and a fair bit of dancing on detail variations, kit for a brakevan is not exactly a poor deal especially if it's well moulded and designed for relatively easy assembly - in fact it compares fairly well with r-t-r.  But you do come up against the size of the potential market quandary as instanced by 'Armstrong440' - you'd probably need a minimum run of 500 to make it anywhere near viable and 1,000 would be better but are there that many GWR modellers out there let alone the percentage of those modellers actually interested in buying one?

[Armstrong440]

Yup.  I wasn't really looking to make a profit - I'm not a trader - but recouping costs IS useful!

 

I just think the plastic kit market has been pretty stale for the past 20 years and it's time some new refinements appeared.

[The Fatadder]

I recently investigated commissioning a kit to build a 4mm AA3 with lots of refinements to raise it above the level of current Coopercraft / Parkside fare.  Included would have been alternative axleboxes, alternative buffers, provision for planked or sheeted sides, separate handrails, and built-in compensation.

 

All of this was done in plastic as I wanted a kit that would be within the capabilities of the average builder - someone who is scared of brass and soldering irons - but which would also appeal to the finescale brigade.  So not only could a 10-year-old make a decent fist of it, but a P4 modeller could effectively build it out of the box and plonk it straight on his layout.

 

I was discouraged by the moulder I was consulting, because the price of the kit would have been at least £20 including wheels and bearings.  I feel that such a kit would justify that price, but I doubt it would sell in sufficient numbers to recoup costs.

Sounds perfect to me, and I'd have certainly taken a couple

But I guess the problem is that a break van won't have the repeat sales volume so hitting that break even number gets even more difficult.

[Armstrong440]

The AA3 was just my own pet project, with AA1 and AA6 in the wings if the first kit was well received.

 

I am still considering an open wagon, perhaps a pre-diagram 1- or 2-planker, which would have the same basic refinements plus a reasonable representation of the brake rigging including alternative parts, full interior detail and full interior depth (!) and lower production costs because the sides could be duplicated instead of the Toad's mirror image ones.  But would people be prepared to pay £15 for a plastic kit of a basic wagon, no matter how many bells and whistles it incorporated?

Edited November 24, 2013 by Armstrong440

[57xx]

When you think about £20 nowadays for an all singing, and a fair bit of dancing on detail variations, kit for a brakevan is not exactly a poor deal especially if it's well moulded and designed for relatively easy assembly - in fact it compares fairly well with r-t-r.  But you do come up against the size of the potential market quandary as instanced by 'Armstrong440' - you'd probably need a minimum run of 500 to make it anywhere near viable and 1,000 would be better but are there that many GWR modellers out there let alone the percentage of those modellers actually interested in buying one?

 

I'd agree that £20 doesn't sound that bad for what is being proposed. Regarding the size of the market, don't forget that this is not just limited to GWR modellers (unless you were including BR modellers in your statement). Also Steam's Lode Star is a "limited edition" - of 1000 models. Steam must have thought the market is there. I would have thought most people would be buying more than one kit, not just because a few Toads would be required for a layout, but also so they could produce the potential variations. How many Lode Stars are you likely to buy?

[The Stationmaster]

The AA3 was just my own pet project, with AA1 and AA6 in the wings if the first kit was well received.

 

I am still considering an open wagon, which would have the same basic refinements plus a reasonable representation of the brake rigging including alternative parts, a properly moulded representation of the sheet bar mechanism, full interior detail and full interior depth (!) and lower production costs because the sides could be duplicated instead of the Toad's mirror image ones.  But would people be prepared to pay £15 for a plastic kit of a basic wagon, no matter how many bells and whistles it incorporated?

 

For pricing just look at your potential competition/the existing market.  My own view is that a sooper-dooper brakevan might be a more marketable and sustainable project than a similar spec wagon.  Although the market is limited in comparison everybody needs a freight brakevan and if it's good enough and goes together well enough it could become the equivalent of a loco with folk buying more than they need just because it's good.  So you have a potentially more expensive front end and back end on your trains while the middle bit gets less attention.

[Siberian Snooper]

I think that if the kit has prototype fidelity and is easy to put together like the Parkside offerings and is not available cheaper than from somewhere else then you're in with half a chance.

 

If the kit is of a prototype that was in use during the mid '20's in reasonable numbers I would be interested in a couple of three. If it is of a common vehicle and in the common user pool then there is a chance of the kit being bought by non GW modellers to add a bit of variety to their stock.

 

Cheers SS 

[Miss Prism]

Should the vertical axis read either 'Quality/price' or 'Fidelity/price'?

 

I take your point, Mike, but in this case I assume Armstrong440 merely wanted to recoup the mould-cutting and mould-running costs, i.e. was not significantly factoring the time taken in the design work, as would be the case of a normal commercial kit maker. In that context, a designer can put in as much 'quality' or 'fidelity' as he wishes - the plastic going into a cavity doesn't care whether the rivets are present or in the right place, or whether the basic shape is correct or how 'refined' the design is. (Subject of course to normal plastic constraints like thicknesses of section.)

 

I too am slightly surprised the projected AA3 price was as low as £20, but it really does all come down to volumes that can be shifted, and the difference between shifting 500 and 1000 units can be the difference between making a substantial loss and breaking even. Shifting 2000 units can make a good profit. (I use those numbers loosely, not knowing the actual projected costs in this particular AA3 case, but you get my drift.) But how many people are desparate for an AA3 who haven't already cut and shut a far cheaper Ratio or splashed out £35 for a finger-singeing Southwark Bridge etch? And what model shops and distributors would be willing to engage in trade enquiries for such a product in such a price range? Nine out of ten shop punters will still go for that Ratio kit or the Bachmann or Hornby RTR AA19. Us few frothing GWR fanatics on RMweb giving Armstrong440 moral support aren't going to alter the numbers situation by much.

 

Parkside's O11/O15 5-planker was a smart choice, and filled an obvious gap between Ratio's O29 and the early generation of Coopercrafts, but my guess is Parkside has probably looked at the GWR brake van situation and decided not to make a move. What any new plastic manufacturer is up against is the fact that the Coopercraft and Ratio moulds have been running for decades, and can thus continue to be run at low overheads. The cost of the initial tooling is the killer. My heart would like to think a new £15 Open could compete with a £6 Coopercraft, but my head says the market won't let it. (Resin bodies and bits from FUD masters are a more viable commercial proposition.)

 

In 7mm, the market economics become rather different - just look at the prices commanded by JLTRT coaches!

[Neal Ball]

Interesting idea from Armstrong440...... 

 

BUT! - When I spoke to Parkside to ask if they would make one (they were happy if I commissioned one!), their thoughts were that as soon as they made a Kit, that was the hard part and an R-T-R manufacturer would then look at that and make one and therefore under cut them.... having wasted all the production costs in the meantime.

 

I for one, would shell out £20 for a new Toad... but as per the comments about am not sure it's viable.

 

The rationale being that once Bachmann / Hornby have got their production schedules on-track, I would have thought we will see a new offering (or two) within the next few years.

 

Personally I am holding out for a Bachmann Toad, that I can suitably adorned with DCC lamps!

[Armstrong440]

Miss Prism and Mr Ball are basically echoing the voice that I have in the back of my own head.  But if I may explain some of the reasoning behind my proposed project...

 

A plastic wagon kit is not an intrinsically difficult thing to put together, but to do it well requires a little skill and patience.  And that will satisfy most modellers most of the time.  But some people require a little bit more, be they EM or P4 modellers, or just OO modellers who want to stretch themselves a little.  And to move beyond the current range of plastic kits requires graduating to new media - whitemetal or etched brass - which in turn require new skill sets.  A modeller might only reluctantly want to learn these skills because they have to in order to progress, or they might not want to learn them at all - in which case they simply don't progress.  A halfway house between the two is taking a plastic kit and hacking it about to fit compensation units and/or sprung buffers and couplings - something that I myself do a lot and which is often detailed in various "how to" books and articles.
 
I would just like to see kits on the market that make this hacking either easier or unnecessary.  A plastic kit that can not only be built by a beginner with little more than a knife and a bottle of solvent, but which has crisper detail and thinner sides than a cast kit, better relief than an etched kit, and a level of detail and a variety of options to cater to the more particular modeller: something, as I say, that a P4 modeller could build "as is" and be happy with the result.  Basically what I was proposing was to try and take on the whitemetal and brass brigade with a simpler, cheaper, easier alternative.

 

The £20 I mentioned was the all-up development and production cost for a 500-model run.  This left no profit for myself: that would come with the 501st model sold.  The RTR manufacturers are unlikely ever to incorporate compensation and alternative parts: the big question is whether or not the market is large enough for me to sell 501 of my fancy dancy kits.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Armstrong440

[The Fatadder]

What is the potential for a subscription basis. See if you can get firm commitments from modellers & shops for x percentage of the batch to ensure you are wel on the way to break even before committing the capital for moulds etc?

[Armstrong440]

What is the potential for a subscription basis. See if you can get firm commitments from modellers & shops for x percentage of the batch to ensure you are wel on the way to break even before committing the capital for moulds etc?

 

I'm not sure that would help very much.  Even if I got firm commitments for, say, 200 models (which I think is optimistic), that's still a long way from break-even.

 

Personally, I don't mind if the kit takes several years to pay off the mould costs - which is how long it probably WOULD take!  As I say, I'm not in this to make a profit, just to do something useful which MIGHT form the basis of a future business.

[Miss Prism]

I would just like to see kits on the market that make this hacking either easier or unnecessary.

 

All P4 modellers dream of this - W-iron recesses on the rear of plastic solebars, with separate spigot-mounted W-iron mouldings and separate springs/axleboxes would be great, so that fitting and furnishing spring or rocking units becomes easy. Brakes separate from their vees, so that we can get them in line with wheels. Brake rods not attached in their middle, so that we can nudge the shoes tighter to the tyres. Inside solebar ends recessed to clear sprung buffer tails.

 

Etc, etc.

 

The problem is 95% of your potential market, on being faced with kits like that, will say "Huh? What is this complication all about?"

[johnlewis]

I'm not sure that would help very much.  Even if I got firm commitments for, say, 200 models (which I think is optimistic), that's still a long way from break-even.

 

Personally, I don't mind if the kit takes several years to pay off the mould costs - which is how long it probably WOULD take!  As I say, I'm not in this to make a profit, just to do something useful which MIGHT form the basis of a future business.

 

Has anyone considered lasercut ply (or other suitable material) for making the kit for an early wooden underframe, outside framed toad some of which survived to be classifed A16.

 

Having seen what people can do with this production method for buildings I think that it would be a suitable way doing the framing for an A16 toad, a drawing is in the Railway Journal Summer 1987 article by John Lewis. 

 

It would need to be redrawn by a CAd expert but I imagine this would be cheaper than making the moulds for plastic kits, but since I know little about the technicalities of laser cutting I could be wrong.

 

jayell