GWR Toad Brake vans

[Neal Ball]

All P4 modellers dream of this - .......

 

......The problem is 95% of your potential market, on being faced with kits like that, will say "Huh? What is this complication all about?"

 

Lost me at "All P4" :-) lol

 

 

Has anyone considered lasercut ply (or other suitable material) for making the kit for an early wooden underframe, outside framed toad some of which survived to be classifed A16.

 

Having seen what people can do with this production method for buildings I think that it would be a suitable way doing the framing for an A16 toad, a drawing is in the Railway Journal Summer 1987 article by John Lewis. 

 

It would need to be redrawn by a CAd expert but I imagine this would be cheaper than making the moulds for plastic kits, but since I know little about the technicalities of laser cutting I could be wrong.

 

jayell   

 

I would have thought that a laser cut kit would work out more expensive.

[Neal Ball]

I'm not sure that would help very much.  Even if I got firm commitments for, say, 200 models (which I think is optimistic), that's still a long way from break-even.

 

Personally, I don't mind if the kit takes several years to pay off the mould costs - which is how long it probably WOULD take!  As I say, I'm not in this to make a profit, just to do something useful which MIGHT form the basis of a future business.

 

200 kits would be quite an impressive order, but if you need to break even at 500... I would urge serious caution. I reckon we will see an R-T-R model soon, it might not be the right AA number, but any model will probably eat into your production. Overall it could be an expense venture for you.

 

I clearly wish you luck with the project, hope it works out. 

[Armstrong440]

I hear what people say, and it pretty much coincides with what I have concluded on my own.

 

However, if this is not a viable prospect, then what (if any) is the future for the plastic kit field?  Are any and all "obscure" prototypes destined to remain in the realm of whitemetal and brass?  Are all manufacturers going to fight shy of new releases in case the RTR industry or a nerd with a computer and a 3D printer pull the rug out from under their feet?

 

I'm wondering how many Siphons Coopercraft are expecting to sell...

[kandc_au]

I hear what people say, and it pretty much coincides with what I have concluded on my own.

 

However, if this is not a viable prospect, then what (if any) is the future for the plastic kit field?  Are any and all "obscure" prototypes destined to remain in the realm of whitemetal and brass?  Are all manufacturers going to fight shy of new releases in case the RTR industry or a nerd with a computer and a 3D printer pull the rug out from under their feet?

 

I'm wondering how many Siphons Coopercraft are expecting to sell...

 

I would gather the saving grace for Coopercraft is he is not solely relying on the sale of the Siphon, which is what you would be doing  with the Toad in the first instance.

Given time I would think you would sell all the kits, BUT, NOT in the short term, which leaves you with a cashflow issue.

Even if this was to be your one and only model, it is quite possible that you would be dead before they all sold. (That is assuming you are over 40 )

From what I understand from my Brother in Law (BiL) printing will be the way of a lot of things in the not to distant future.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Khris

[johnlewis]

Lost me at "All P4" :-) lol

 

 

 

I would have thought that a laser cut kit would work out more expensive.

 

Given that a RTR model or plastic kit for an AA16 in 4mm scale is highly improbable and you also suggest laser cutting is too expensive that leaves 3D printing. I know that this particular vehicle has been done in 2mm scale and that outside framed vans have been done in 4mm scale, eg

 

NSR 10ton Ballast Brake Van - 4mm scale - in WSF@ €16.75 or in FUD @ €45

(http://www.shapeways.com/model/937901/n ... terialId=6)

 

so maybe 3D printing would be the way forward for small quantities of relatively un-common vehicles.

 

3D printing is a fast developing technique and costs for 'home printers' are dropping, this one looks interesting

http://b9creator.com...ewtopic&t=553.1

as it uses a different technique and reading the FAQ it looks like it has the capacity to produce 4mm scale wagons

 

jayell

Edited December 15, 2013 by johnlewis

[Armstrong440]

I have looked into 3D printing and at the moment, to my mind, the technology is lacking.  It's possible to get good prints with a lot of wrangling, mainly concerned with getting the model at the right angle in relation to the printing head to prevent ridges on the visible surfaces and allow fine detail, particularly thin linear features, to form properly.  But the surface finish is still very variable from one print to the next, there seem to be issues about how some of the plastics take paint, and the plastic seems to be subject to long-term shrinkage and/or sagging.

 

In time these issues will be settled, and I'm guessing that within a few years 3D printing will be a viable means of producing models commercially.

 

But to me the inherent flexibility and "friendliness" of a kit wins hands down against a one-piece moulding.  Lots of people enjoy the actual process of building a kit.  Kits can include spare pieces for different variations - leaving the builder with parts (s)he can use elsewhere.  The plastic is easily manipulated - cut, sanded, filed, glued, and modified with strip and rod and sheet.  Of course some people will prefer a one-piece model they can buy, paint and put on a layout: it's horses for courses.  But plastic kits still have a long and healthy life ahead of them.

 

Given that, I do feel that a plastic kit is a viable option even for an obscure prototype.  It won't make much money for the manufacturer, but it WILL recover its costs and make money in time.  How many Provender Wagon kits have Coopercraft sold over the years, given that only twelve prototypes were ever built - and six of them were slightly different to the CC version!  And even the CC wooden Minks were fairly uncommon creatures.  A quality kit of an interesting and "different" prototype will sell to the modeller who wants that particular vehicle, but I'll wager that most of its sales will be to little Johnny who sees it on the shelf and says "I haven't got one of those yet, Dad."

 

Incidentally, the AA3 kit I was proposing earlier was hardly an "obscure" prototype, with 840 being built.

[Neal Ball]

I have looked into 3D printing  ........, the AA3 kit I was proposing earlier was hardly an "obscure" prototype, with 840 being built.

 

We look forward to you commissioning a GWR Toad then....

[Horsetan]

I'd be happy with an updated plastic kit for AA11/13/15. Alternative parts could be provided for planked/sheeted sides/ends, springs, footboards etc.<br /><br />Dear Mr Parkside...

 

Funny.

 

In an eBay joblot I collected last week were several unbuilt Ratio and Coopercraft wagon kits, including a Ratio "Toad". I can't remember whether Ratio have ever said what diagram their kit is meant to represent, so I tended to regard it as a generic basis for whatever diagram you wanted to turn it into. The AA23 diagram looks attractive, and I see Geoff Kent produced one from the Ratio kit in his wagon book.

[Neal Ball]

Maybe Bachmann will come up trumps when they announce their new range in July 2014.

[tomparryharry]

Given the dearth of availabilty of a good 'all-purpose' toad, perhaps it's not such a bad idea to commission someone like Parkside to come up with a kit.

 

The Ratio offering is not bad, but a real PITA to scrape off those bl**dy awful handrails. I suppose I could make a brass kit, but I'd be forever trying to finish it off.

 

In this world of 'design clever', I feel those moulded on handrails are here for good, Simple things like glazing? Don't get me started.....

 

Ian

[br2975]

 

&nbsp; In the tradition of GWR of producing a diagram book and then prototyping something different - AA8 ? - both the original two and their much later, slightly different (enough to notice on a model) replacements.

 

But I guess Pontnewynydd is not that popular a modelling branch

A model based on Branches Fork would provide much entertainment - an excelent article by Desmond Coakham appeared in a BRJ a number of years ago. Two colliery branches, serving at least three collieries, a brickworks, shed, weighbridge and P.J. & J.P. Pontnewynydd Works.

 

Hmmmmm - cogs have started rotating.

.

Brian R

[Kenton]

 

 

 

A model based on Branches Fork would provide much entertainment - an excelent article by Desmond Coakham appeared in a BRJ a number of years ago. Two colliery branches, serving at least three collieries, a brickworks, shed, weighbridge and P.J. & J.P. Pontnewynydd Works.

 

Hmmmmm - cogs have started rotating.

.

Brian R

Sounds good

 

 

... but would it all fit on a 4x2 plank?

[Neal Ball]

Given the success of the current kickstarter scheme for a N gauge Pendolino: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/840142652/pendolino-uk-n-gaugeis there any mileage in a similar scheme for a GWR Toad brake van?

 

I understand that generally manufacturers are sceptical about expensive set-up costs for wagons, as this does not translate into the amount of money we want to pay..... Plus generally their margins on wagons are not the same as locos, (DJM Dave has commented on this in another thread).

 

No idea of the possible costs.... but suppose it's £20 or £30 would a new Toad actually sell? Then of course the possibility remains that going down a crowd funding route, a mainstream manufacturer comes in and trumps it straight away....

 

Just a thought, but this thread has been running around 2 years and still no sign of a new Toad :-)

[chrisf]

Perhaps we are collectively prepared to make do with what there is already?

 

Chris

[Penrhos1920]

Neal,I see no real reason why a kickstart project won't succeed. It will take a lot of hard work. If you are lucky there will be drawings that you can scan and send off the China. Or maybe a preserved example but what will be original and what recent changes?

 

If you do pick up the batton and the run with it, follow the poll leads, I'll support you, but first you need to speak to someone like Dave JM

[Ozexpatriate]

No idea of the possible costs.... but suppose it's £20 or £30 would a new Toad actually sell? Then of course the possibility remains that going down a crowd funding route, a mainstream manufacturer comes in and trumps it straight away....

A mainstream manufacturer is unlikely to trump a premium version - like one with a lighted lamp for example. That of course would make it more expensive and therefore something fewer people would buy into.

 

If people wanted to do this, count me in, but I would note that GWR brake vans are not a high polling item in the wishlist poll, even for GWR fans.

 

The wishlist (which of course only includes unmodelled items) has this:

 

154 GWR Brake Van 24ft Goods (Toad) (e.g. Diag.AA15 of 1918)

 

Which if I've done my sums correctly is tied for 235^th on the list.

 

I have to admit that I'm pleased to see even the less than stellar Hornby model at least reappear in their catalogue for 2015.

[Neal Ball]

2017 will see us spoilt for choice as Hornby have announced their GWR 20 ton Toad brake van.

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2017/gwr-toad-aa15-20-ton-goods-brake-van.html

 

Sounds good to me, thanks Hornby.

[BG John]

2017 will see us spoilt for choice as Hornby have announced their GWR 20 ton Toad brake van.

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2017/gwr-toad-aa15-20-ton-goods-brake-van.html

 

Sounds good to me, thanks Hornby.

Another modern image version! Still only one choice for me, and that's chopping the centre wheels off an Oxford one.

Edited November 26, 2016 by BG John

[gwrrob]

[Dunsignalling]

Given the success of the current kickstarter scheme for a N gauge Pendolino: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/840142652/pendolino-uk-n-gaugeis there any mileage in a similar scheme for a GWR Toad brake van?

 

I understand that generally manufacturers are sceptical about expensive set-up costs for wagons, as this does not translate into the amount of money we want to pay..... Plus generally their margins on wagons are not the same as locos, (DJM Dave has commented on this in another thread).

 

No idea of the possible costs.... but suppose it's £20 or £30 would a new Toad actually sell? Then of course the possibility remains that going down a crowd funding route, a mainstream manufacturer comes in and trumps it straight away....

 

Just a thought, but this thread has been running around 2 years and still no sign of a new Toad :-)

According to the Hornby website, their new one will be £21.99, only three quid more than the current one - a small price to pay for separate handrails, I reckon.

 

John

[The Fatadder]

Fantastic news,

A few of these will certainly be coming my way. Avoiding the annoyance of replacing Bachman or Airfix mounded handrails is priceless

Frees up some time to model other versions such as the short one allocated to kingsbridge...

[81C]

Another modern image version! Still only one choice for me, and that's chopping the centre wheels off an Oxford one.

that's what I will be doing to get variety 2x4 & 2x6 Wheel toads I can shift on some of the others then, there is one detail on this Hornby jobby is the grab rails on the sides which is a nice touch maybe a couple to replace the early Airfix one's.

The lamp iron look wrong has anyone see this at Warley, I hope Hornby haven't c0cked this one up.

[The Stationmaster]

that's what I will be doing to get variety 2x4 & 2x6 Wheel toads I can shift on some of the others then, there is one detail on this Hornby jobby is the grab rails on the sides which is a nice touch maybe a couple to replace the early Airfix one's.

The lamp iron look wrong has anyone see this at Warley, I hope Hornby haven't c0cked this one up.

 

According to the pics the lamp irons are correct (for some vans - the height varies very slightly).  Only real problem - if it can be called one - is that the side lamp irons are moulded as part of the body. 

[BG John]

that's what I will be doing to get variety 2x4 & 2x6 Wheel toads I can shift on some of the others then, there is one detail on this Hornby jobby is the grab rails on the sides which is a nice touch maybe a couple to replace the early Airfix one's.

The lamp iron look wrong has anyone see this at Warley, I hope Hornby haven't c0cked this one up.

I've pre-ordered one Oxford, but might just manage three. The ordered one is for my 1905 EM branch line, where one van is enough, and definitely not a six wheeler. The others, if I buy them, will have to be brand new, long before the six wheelers appeared, and one would be converted to the only broad gauge one.

[81C]

According to the pics the lamp irons are correct (for some vans - the height varies very slightly).  Only real problem - if it can be called one - is that the side lamp irons are moulded as part of the body. 

The photo wasn't very clear for me I'd better get my @rse off to Specsavers, the side brackets would normally travel with lamps on so wouldn't be a problem for me

I'd get a very fine marker pen and run a line around to mimic a shadow line.

Edited November 27, 2016 by 81C