Spanish Rail Crash

[Glorious NSE]

In this country, NR apply such a ban in signal boxes/panels. The same should apply to drivers but I am not certain if all operators forbid such use.

 

Interesting RAIB report released this week, suggesting that there have been some big grey area's with that, with companies seemingly 'officially' banning their use, yet still relying on their drivers answering them: http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/130808_R122013_Arley.pdf

[Oldddudders]

 

In this country, NR apply such a ban in signal boxes/panels.

While I'm in no doubt you are factually correct, it strikes me as a pretty silly and unenforceable rule - and thus unwise. Not a few signalmen, even today, have shifts when there are long gaps between movements. The idea that they might not be allowed to use a cellphone for their own purposes is fanciful to say the least. These days, smartphones etc are the equivalent of a daily newspaper for many people - there is always one in the pocket. In panel-boxes, staff relieve each other to enjoy a mealbreak away from the panel during quieter times - ideal for txting the homefront to find out everything is ok.

[Miss Prism]

What has not been made clear is to whom he was speaking, and who initiated the call.

 

See para 2 of post #365, although I cannot confirm the accuracy of the report referenced there.

[RJS1977]

While I'm in no doubt you are factually correct, it strikes me as a pretty silly and unenforceable rule - and thus unwise. Not a few signalmen, even today, have shifts when there are long gaps between movements. The idea that they might not be allowed to use a cellphone for their own purposes is fanciful to say the least. These days, smartphones etc are the equivalent of a daily newspaper for many people - there is always one in the pocket. In panel-boxes, staff relieve each other to enjoy a mealbreak away from the panel during quieter times - ideal for txting the homefront to find out everything is ok.

 

I believe newspapers also used to be "officially" banned from signalboxes. Doesn't mean they weren't there of course....

[PaulRhB]

'If strictly necessary' is open to a wide interpretation unless there are guidelines to that. As an example, Is we need to talk to him to see if he can work tomorrow strictly necessary?

My main concern is that by calling him and then him referring to 'paperwork' his attention was taken off the view. Becoming absorbed for a short time at the critical point where the warnings signs are means he's missed them possibly? Did he then look up and take a further time for his brain to register his position? Then realise too late?

Next time you're a passenger in a car and look down to answer a text or search a document while on a country road see how many seconds it takes to be certain of your exact position. Probably a sign, particular tree or junction will be the key as apart from that a country road is much like a railway with only occasional certain reference points.

I was told by a retired driver he suddenly realised he was watching the steam from his coffee on the window rather than the view beyond for a few seconds, enough to trigger where the heck am I?

[The Stationmaster]

I believe newspapers also used to be "officially" banned from signalboxes. Doesn't mean they weren't there of course....

That must have been a long time ago - they were a common sight in signalboxes from the 1960s onwards.  A less common sight - unless you knew where to look were radios sets (which were banned although they aren't nowadays) and ever rarer but still occasionally found were televisions (which I understand are still banned, although it appears that laptop computers might not be?).

[James]

which I understand are still banned, although it appears that laptop computers might not be?

Laptops are very much banned! It comes under, IIRC, "all personal computing equipment".

[PaulRhB]

Even radios are banned in panels, only some quieter boxes are allowed them. As most boxes are supplied with a PC with limited Internet access they aren't cut off but you just have to realise that everything you do can be recorded and monitored. Fair enough when you're looking after others safety and being paid to work

[James]

Even radios are banned in panels, only some quieter boxes are allowed them.

At one point part of the criteria for being allowed a radio was being single manned.

 

One of our MOMs (acting LOM at one point) was of the opinion that a book or newspaper could be more distracting than the radio as it's all too easy to become engrossed in reading! I think he has a point too!

[martin_wynne]

That must have been a long time ago - they were a common sight in signalboxes from the 1960s onwards.  A less common sight - unless you knew where to look were radios sets (which were banned although they aren't nowadays) and ever rarer but still occasionally found were televisions (which I understand are still banned, although it appears that laptop computers might not be?).

 

I recall visiting a box in the 80s where there was a complete modellers workbench in the corner, and some freshly sprayed coaching stock ranged along the block shelf to dry.

[The Stationmaster]

I recall visiting a box in the 80s where there was a complete modellers workbench in the corner, and some freshly sprayed coaching stock ranged along the block shelf to dry.

Hmm - the modern version of watch mending.  However I came across one that was even closer to that old pastime of Signalmen and that was a Princess Coronation chassis and valvegear (Comet I think), complete with Portescap, being assembled to go under a modified Horny streamliner body.  Not one of my 'boxes and definitely an improvement on a Signalman doing his book layout and tapping me up for a photo for it!

[PaulRhB]

, being assembled to go under a modified Horny streamliner body.

b found this on the floor Mike . . .

 

In years past I've seen everything from tanks to a six foot model of the Titanic in boxes sadly now gone.

[James]

I recall visiting a box in the 80s where there was a complete modellers workbench in the corner, and some freshly sprayed coaching stock ranged along the block shelf to dry.

 

In the background...

[beast66606]

I recall visiting a box in the 80s where there was a complete modellers workbench in the corner, and some freshly sprayed coaching stock ranged along the block shelf to dry.

 

Hooton used to have a N gauge layout in the corner, it moved, with the signalman, to New Brighton iirc.

[Oldddudders]

The 8th-wonder-of-the-world (in 1976) new London Bridge panel box had "Chicko's Marine Land" which signalman-turned-Traffic Regulator George Chick introduced. It was a large fish tank with occupants. Extremely relaxing, people found it.

[ZippyHG]

The 8th-wonder-of-the-world (in 1976) new London Bridge panel box had "Chicko's Marine Land" which signalman-turned-Traffic Regulator George Chick introduced. It was a large fish tank with occupants. Extremely relaxing, people found it.

The fish tank is still there. Recently replaced with a new one!

[roythebus]

^{Is there any update on the outcome of this tragedy?}

[Fat Controller]

^{Is there any update on the outcome of this tragedy?}

It's gone quiet; there are two good articles on it in this month's Modern Railways which might fill out what has been on here.

[Southernman46]

The 8th-wonder-of-the-world (in 1976) new London Bridge panel box had "Chicko's Marine Land" which signalman-turned-Traffic Regulator George Chick introduced. It was a large fish tank with occupants. Extremely relaxing, people found it.

They needed it too, with "Engineers" like me tripping both 11kV supplies to the box at 5pm    (during the Ludgate scheme in 1990)

[martin_wynne]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23982566

[Oldddudders]

Sad but straightforward. Nothing really sinister, just a human failure as we all suffer from time to time.

[melmerby]

Like the comment, reported this morning, that the driver thought the curve was "inhuman"!

 

I wonder whether that is a slight mistransalation from the original Spanish?

 

Keith

[Andy Hayter]

Sad but straightforward. Nothing really sinister, just a human failure as we all suffer from time to time.

 

Yes, but should the railway management work to design out the likelihood of human failure.

In my industry (Petrochemicals), we are required to design out the possibility of human mistakes with major consequences, on the basis that if they can occur, they will.

 

It strikes me that it is all too easy to blame the driver, and ignore the fact that the safety systems then in place were designed to permit the accident to happen.

[jjb1970]

As a general principle, if an accident report lists "human error" as the primary cause of an accident then it is not worth the paper it is written on in my opinion. I do some work with accident investigation and analysis in another industry and when people (usually the employers) blame the poor sap that has been hung out to dry it tends to be at least partly motivated by efforts to avoid people looking at poor design, management over sight, corporate culture, training standards, competency assessment, inadequate safe systems of work etc etc. However much easier to blame the bloke (or lady) at the sharp end. I am not saying that humans do not make mistakes and human error does play a role in incidents but as has been pointed out here modern systems can be and should be designed to make them resilient to human error, management over sight should stop bad habits and rule breaking, staff should be properly trained and monitored and there should be a good corporate culture. One of the things that really does make the red mist descend for me if to hear managers say "we didn't know", well you're managers, get out there and manage!! Part of the role of a manager is to know what is happening within their area of responsibility, and that includes being aware that subordinate managers are managing their own little empires.

[James]

Yes, but should the railway management work to design out the likelihood of human failure.

Overall railways are very safe, so perhaps we're doing something right?