Spanish Rail Crash

[martin_wynne]

I got told off for using the word "cant" for super elevation - cant is the angle at which each rail leans in to the opposite rail and applies even on tangents.

 

Hi Pete,

 

Cant is the normal term for superelevation in the UK. The rate at which the outer rail rises above the inner rail as you enter a curve is called the "cant gradient".

 

The inward angle on the rails is sometimes called cant but is usually called inclination in the UK -- track is described as "inclined", or "vertical" where rails are not inclined. The angle in the UK is almost always 1:20. In the US the angle is usually 1:40.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

I was thinking the same but the speed of the train in the film seems to be a lot less, even that giving less than 30 seconds from entering the tunnel to the curve (0:08 to 0:37). If the train was travelling at 200 Kph that time could be as little as 10 to 12 seconds (taking it that the 'camera' train was travelling at the speed limit of 80 Kph).

 

Be aware that the video frame rate from YouTube may not match the original camera video. This especially applies to the trackside CCTV showing the crash. It would be unwise to take timings from the displayed video.

 

The frame speed from YouTube may also vary in different browsers using different video formats -- OGG video in Firefox (which doesn't support MP4).

 

Martin.

[Armchair Modeller]

The abrupt start to the retaining wall deserves attention. I can only assume they thought no train would ever derail there.

[The Stationmaster]

Am I alone in finding the presence of the tunnel adds further mystery to all this? Since the curve starts so soon after the tunnel, entry to the tunnel would seem a very obvious landmark for thinking about starting the braking sequence. Perhaps there are more tunnels to the rear, so it isn't that simple.

Regrettably none of the lineside signs convey any meaning which is obvious to me but there is one in rear of the tunnel and another in rear of the curve - not far from what looked to be the initial point of derailment and they are two different symbols.  Plus the interesting arrangement in the five foot in rear of the tunnel entrance.  Whether or not any of these, plus the audible signals, have any relevance to the speed reduction or speed restriction would be interesting to know?

[James]

I got told off for using the word "cant" for super elevation

It's the term all British p-way staff would use!

[Neil]

Apologies if this has been raised earlier, but these quotes from the Guardian perhaps illustrate why RENFE have been keen that the  focus has so far been on the driver.

 

"In an official statement, the court handling the case said that 'minutes before the derailment, [Garzón] received a call on his professional telephone to signal to him the route he had to take on arriving in Ferrol. It appears, from the content of the conversation and the background noise, that the driver consulted a plan or some similar paper document.'"

 

 

"Since the disaster, the heads of Renfe and the network operator, Adif, have put the responsibility squarely on Garzón. But the driver's union has expressed concern that he was being blamed before the analysis of data from the onboard recorders."

 

"The view taken of the crash could have important financial repercussions. Spain has been a pioneer of high-speed rail traffic and has an important railway construction industry. Renfe is among firms bidding for a €13bn (£11.2bn) contract to build a high-speed rail link in Brazil. The terms of the tender reportedly exclude firms involved in the running of systems where an accident has taken place in the preceding five years."

 

The more I read the more it looks like the driver has been the victim of circumstance, gaps in the safety systems and operational procedures.

[James]

The more I read the more it looks like the driver has been the victim of circumstance, gaps in the safety systems and operational procedures.

A lot was made of him posting a photo of his speedo showing 125mph on Facebook - apparently him boasting about his speeding. Well, he drives high speed trains, so 125mph isn't to be unexpected. It does seem the media makes their minds up very early on in many stories as to who is to blame.

 

The final report will hopefully make everything clear.

[jamie92208]

A lot was made of him posting a photo of his speedo showing 125mph on Facebook - apparently him boasting about his speeding. Well, he drives high speed trains, so 125mph isn't to be unexpected. It does seem the media makes their minds up very early on in many stories as to who is to blame.

 

The final report will hopefully make everything clear.

I just hope that the report is independent without 'political' interference.

 

Jamie

[James]

I just hope that the report is independent without 'political' interference.

I don't know enough about how things work in Spain to comment, but the way the media is today I'd hope the report would be spotted to be not quite right if there was interference.

[PatB]

The Spanish population as a whole tend to be very politically aware and are likely to notice anything iffy.  That doesn't mean that anything would necessarily be done about it but it is, at least, a start.

[ZiderHead]

The more I read the more it looks like the driver has been the victim of circumstance, gaps in the safety systems and operational procedures.

 

A victim of circumstance? Thats effectively relinquishing all personal responsibility for ones actions, no better than just shrugging and saying "Its out of my hands, its God's will." Circumstances are always there, its the driver's responsibility to be aware of them and respond to them in a manner which prioritises his passengers' safety. If it turns out that he was distracted from driving the train safely by dealing with a phone call and shuffling paper, it would still be his failure to prioritise.

[The Stationmaster]

I don't know enough about how things work in Spain to comment, but the way the media is today I'd hope the report would be spotted to be not quite right if there was interference.

The problem is James that if the Spanish media are no more understanding of matters of this nature than our own and if certain matters are not given full attention in the inquiry (the real one, not the poltical legal one we've heard from thus far) then things can be carefully brushed under the carpet or kept hidden there.  And the more people concentrate on the Driver and not bother to look for what lies beyond and might explain his actions, or inaction, the easier it becomes to keep things under wraps.

 

I'm not for one minute suggesting that is the course the formal technical inquiry will take but for all we know it might be none too difficult to influence the course of the inquiry to avoid it concentrating on certain aspects of what lies in the background.  I'm fairly sure - from all their Reports that I have ever read plus having dealt with several of them - that the old system of HMRIs in Britain was way above such things (notwithstanding what was said about the time of privatisation - which was really all about a Civil Service turf war).  But since the demise of the HMRI we have seen several inquiries heavily involving members if the legal trade where the investigative element appeared to be either missing, misdirected, or simply naive.

 

I have already had my say about the 'phone call and I will say no more except to repeat that we don't know the context and we haven't had any sort of technically objective assessment of the reasons for it and why it took place when it did - until all of that is known, properly investigated, and explained we are simply listening to what amounts to 'careless talk' and we should not be using it to judge or pass sentence on anybody.  Investigating an incident like this extremely serious derailment is about establishing facts and reaching fact based conclusions which take all contributory factors into account; it is not about writing headlines for 'The Sun' or its counterparts.

[Neil]

A victim of circumstance? Thats effectively relinquishing all personal responsibility for ones actions, no better than just shrugging and saying "Its out of my hands, its God's will." Circumstances are always there, its the driver's responsibility to be aware of them and respond to them in a manner which prioritises his passengers' safety. If it turns out that he was distracted from driving the train safely by dealing with a phone call and shuffling paper, it would still be his failure to prioritise.

 

This is partly true, but we have to remember that humans are fallible. Over the centuries the railway industry has recognised this, and put measures in place that protect staff and public alike from human failings. It's because of this that rail travel is arguably the safest way of getting from A to B.

 

I realise that the following is speculative, but if there was an expectation that phone calls from control were dealt with promptly (culture or management mandate) it's easy to see how circumstances could conspire to distract at the vital moment. Robust safety systems should have caught this possibility.

[James]

 

A victim of circumstance? Thats effectively relinquishing all personal responsibility for ones actions, no better than just shrugging and saying "Its out of my hands, its God's will." Circumstances are always there, its the driver's responsibility to be aware of them and respond to them in a manner which prioritises his passengers' safety. If it turns out that he was distracted from driving the train safely by dealing with a phone call and shuffling paper, it would still be his failure to prioritise.

Zider, all drivers in the UK will carry with them, paper work. Diagrams, forms, all sorts.

 

To say the spanish driver is a "victim of circumstance" could prove to be true; if the systems in place for communicating with drivers prove to be a factor leading to his full concentration being on driving. Drivers can phone signallers, signal boxes and control from their seats in this country and no doubt this the case across Europe.

 

If, and it's a big if, the communication protocols were a factor than you cannot blame the driver for following them - we need to know far more about the incident before we, or anyone else, can draw accurate conclusions.

[Rugd1022]

The driver consulting official paperwork on the move could well be legitimate in this case - it's something some of us have to do in the UK on a daily basis, for example (and I know I've mentioned it before eslewhere on RMWeb) we have 'Heavy Axle Weight' forms which give us very specific speed restrictions over certain bridges when wagons are fully loaded, we have to refer to them as we're driving along, and a more obvious one is a passenger driver checking (and rechecking) his station stops for a given job.

 

As daft as it sounds, some of us do have to consult route maps occasionally when carrying out unfamiliar moves which only happen once in a blue moon.... yes, we all sign the routes we work over but we don't necessarily do the same moves every time we work over them. It's sometimes very useful to have a Quayle map with you if you're conducting another driver.

[Fat Controller]

The driver consulting official paperwork on the move could well be legitimate in this case - it's something some of us have to do in the UK on a daily basis, for example (and I know I've mentioned it before eslewhere on RMWeb) we have 'Heavy Axle Weight' forms which give us very specific speed restrictions over certain bridges when wagons are fully loaded, we have to refer to them as we're driving along, and a more obvious one is a passenger driver checking (and rechecking) his station stops for a given job.

 

As daft as it sounds, some of us do have to consult route maps occasionally when carrying out unfamiliar moves which only happen once in a blue moon.... yes, we all sign the routes we work over but we don't necessarily do the same moves every time we work over them. It's sometimes very useful to have a Quayle map with you if you're conducting another driver.

If RENFE follow the same practice as SNCF, then the driver will be given one or more laminated pages on booking on, which cover all all stopping and major passing points, relevant PSRs and TSRs, for the various workings covered by the diagram; cabs often have a sort of fixed clip-board, where the driver can keep the relevant page in sight. Other relevant documentation, such as numbered forms to cover unscheduled eventualities, would be carried in a briefcase or rucksack.

In my day job, I have to give instructions to drivers/chef-de-trains concerning the workings they are covering; if there any deviations from the norm of platform to platform, such as taking an empty train directly from the UK platforms into the French yard, then I will check with the Yard Supervisor to find out the destination track, any peculiarities of routeing, and the final stopping point. I then have to give all this information to the driver, in sufficient time for them to consult the relevant route maps. Though a driver might sign all the routes, it's quite possible to go from one year to another without travelling on some of the more esoteric ones.

[BG John]

I'm not suggesting this might happen in Spain, but this is a scary story of what Argentinian drivers get up to, according to the Daily Mail. It refers to the Spanish crash and the driver being on the phone, although it seems like the Spanish driver was phoning on business, and this implies the Argentinian drivers make personal calls.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2382609/Argentinas-train-driver-videos-shows-sleeping-reading-duty.html

[The Stationmaster]

Regarding the 'paperwork' I made the point previously that for all we know RENFE might work to the SNCF 'Livre Ligne' system in which case the Driver could have had something amounting to a book, plus other paperwork.  The fact is we don't know what paperwork he had or why he had it or why it needed to be consulted - so we're hardly in a position to criticise, especially as the information is based on reports in the media of something the examining Magistrate said.  In fact we don't know if it was reported accurately or even if the Magistrate (or whoever) understood the significance or otherwise of the paperwork (personally I would hardly expect him to)?

 

In fact all we do know is that the train derailed because it was reportedly going too fast (unless of course someone on here at least has precise knowledge of RENFE driving instructions etc related to the line and location concerned).

[RJS1977]

Hi Pete,

 

Cant is the normal term for superelevation in the UK. The rate at which the outer rail rises above the inner rail as you enter a curve is called the "cant gradient".

 

The inward angle on the rails is sometimes called cant but is usually called inclination in the UK -- track is described as "inclined", or "vertical" where rails are not inclined. The angle in the UK is almost always 1:20. In the US the angle is usually 1:40.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

And here's me thinking Cant was the guy who narrated "Trumpton"....

[melmerby]

I'm not suggesting this might happen in Spain, but this is a scary story of what Argentinian drivers get up to, according to the Daily Mail. It refers to the Spanish crash and the driver being on the phone, although it seems like the Spanish driver was phoning on business, and this implies the Argentinian drivers make personal calls.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2382609/Argentinas-train-driver-videos-shows-sleeping-reading-duty.html

Is it more scary than a 44tonne HGV being driven on our roads whilst the driver watches a DVD on his laptop?

 

Keith

[kevinlms]

The driver consulting official paperwork on the move could well be legitimate in this case - it's something some of us have to do in the UK on a daily basis, for example (and I know I've mentioned it before eslewhere on RMWeb) we have 'Heavy Axle Weight' forms which give us very specific speed restrictions over certain bridges when wagons are fully loaded, we have to refer to them as we're driving along, and a more obvious one is a passenger driver checking (and rechecking) his station stops for a given job.

 

As daft as it sounds, some of us do have to consult route maps occasionally when carrying out unfamiliar moves which only happen once in a blue moon.... yes, we all sign the routes we work over but we don't necessarily do the same moves every time we work over them. It's sometimes very useful to have a Quayle map with you if you're conducting another driver.

In Melbourne, we had an example where a photo appeared in the local scandal Murdoch rag (Herald-Sun), where a suburban train driver was alleged as reading the newspaper while driving. On investigation, he had been checking his notices or WTT, can't remember which. Either way, he was doing his job.

[RJS1977]

A few years ago I received a magazine from the trade union of which I am a member (under protest!) in which a Union official was congratulated by the editor for his devotion to duty. Why? Because he'd answered a Union-related phone call whilst at the controls of a steam loco on a heritage railway!

[Oldddudders]

I do hope we're not going to find out that RENFE had rung the driver to ask whether he'd mind working his rest-day next Thursday fortnight.

[Velopeur]

If the train was late, maybe the person phoning the driver thought the train would already be standing at the station.

[Hobby]

The simple fact is that the phone should not have been answered, no matter who it is, until it was safe to do so, i.e. the train is at a stand, nothing is that important in that it won't wait... If the signalman wants to tell him something he'll use a signal to stop him and then tell him... Again, like everyone else, I don't know what the rules are in Spain but from the number of ASLEF and Management posters up around our and other depots use of a mobile when driving is an absolute no-no... Perhaps this proves why...

 

If the rules are different in Spain then we'll find out in due course and they'll be changed... 

 

 

 

 

14 pages of speculation so far...