The National Festival of Railway Modelling 2013

[IGRL]

Celticwardog, that is exactly the point I am trying to make. Those who attend are NOT paid to come except for expenses and usually those who come still have additional costs that they must pay themselves.

 

I think that the right of 'critique' is at times excercised too far. That is all I am saying. Earlier in the thread, 'Missy' one of the best 2mm modellers around IMO voiced concerns about showing. That would be a huge shame for starters! 

 

"All these people moaning about layouts without anything running gets me scared. Its makes me want to take my layout out to shows less and less the more I read about what people seem to demand from layouts at shows these days."

 

For my part, I do one more show and that is it and yes, it is because in the past, the 'critique' was for me, too hurtful and upsetting.

[Guest Celticwardog]

OK understood. I did state in my original post that so long as any actual face to face critique is not nasty or rude then it's acceptable but of course I accept that an actual personal attack or ill-informed comments from those who could do no better are absolutely not acceptable and I would defend anyone who that was directed at.

[PLD]

You pay your money to get into the show and in return you have the right to expect a certain level of entertainment from the show, This particular show is at the very top end of the price range so not unreasonably peoples expectations are higher than at a local club show charging only a few pounds to enter. If expectations aren't met then feedback is understandably proportionally louder than a less costly show...

 

With regard to the layout in question; there are different types of layouts which re designed to give different viewing experiences from a sleepy branchline terminus showing intricate shunting operations to an 'all action' mainline with a constant procession of trains. That particular layout is (or should be) firmly in the latter category but on the occasions I have previously seen it, it's performance was the same as reported at this show, i.e. not delivering in the role it is intended to fulfill so I suspect there is something fundamental in the design of the layout or it's control systems that either hinders operation or is not properly understood by the operators...

[great central]

Having been involved with a couple of exhibition layouts for over 20 years I feel that if criticism is felt justified by the paying public then it may well be deserved. The layouts are fairly big ones, over 25ft long. One of them is pretty reliable and causes few problems, most of them being operator error, that being the case we just make it plain to a good proportion of the viewing public and they then see how we're going to get out of it. The other common problem is de-wirements and the investigation and repairs also seem to interest the public. A certain amount of good natured banter among the operating crew helps, we all get on very well so understand one another, this also shows to the public that we are there to enjoy ourselves and not take it all too seriously. Yes, we make mistakes, things go wrong, but if you take it in your stride the public are understanding and often join in the fun

 

The other layout does have it's issues mostly down to it's initial design and the alterations we did to make it work better as an exhibition layout. As an example we took it to one show, unfortunately I couldn't get to that one so didn't see the problems for myself, but I was told it ran like a bag of spanners. The next show was a big one which we approached with some trepidation, the layout performed almost faultlessly for three days, so much so that our quote of the weekend was 'drive it like you stole it'!

 

If you put yourself and your work into the paying public's eye they expect, and are entitled to in my opinion, that the layout (and the operators) are up to scratch. If they are found wanting then they should expect a certain amount of criticism. That is not to say it's open season but if, for arguments sake, you pay to go to an amateur dramatics performance and was presented with two people sat on stools reading Shakespeare direct from the script with no pretence at 'acting' wouldn't you feel justified in criticising them? 

Everyone goes to something with a level of expectation, when those expectations are not fulfilled they are likely to say so.

 

Model railway exhibitions are about entertaining and inspiring (hopefully). That is not just a matter of making the trains run, and fretting if they don't, it's about being involved with the layout but also able to engage with the public. In my opinion layouts with 'do not disturb, I'm operating' type signs are not fulfilling their potential to entertain and can be quite off-putting to many people, myself included.

[Guest Bob S]

If you're exhibiting at a major show like this one, I think there is a responsibility to "put on a good show" for the paying public....

 

Thinking about the way you're operating. Keeping things moving where possible. Designing certain aspects of the layout so a single fault doesn't kill everything.... A reasonable standard of display presentation, etc...

 

That said, disasters will happen, and it is just a hobby after all....

 

Bob

[IGRL]

"If you put yourself and your work into the paying public's eye they expect, and are entitled to in my opinion, that the layout (and the operators) are up to scratch. If they are found wanting then they should expect a certain amount of criticism."

 

I do agree but I think there is a big difference between rail enthusiasts who go on these fora and the general paying public. I always designed layouts to appeal to the general public and often they were less appreciated by the enthusiasts. Cliffhanger was described as a 'few feet of box hedge' on two such fora, for instance. For folks who should be constructive and sympathetic to operators who experience a disaster at a show I feel this unfortunate layout has been roundly 'castigated'.

 

Suddenly there is such a huge concern for the general public and what they get for their money about just one layout that did not work so well out of about 30.

 

Funny that. When I have commented that at some exhibitions, up to a quarter of layouts cannot be seen by those in wheelchairs despite paying the same entrance fee I have been met with nothing but indignation. 

 

I have said my piece and will say no more.

[Jol Wilkinson]

There have been some interesting views expressed from both sides of the exhibition barrier.

 

It may also be worth reflecting that;

 

1. Most, if not all, exhibitions are run as commercial ventures, whether by a club to raise funds or by such as Warners (BRM), Key Publishing (Hornby Magazine), etc. to increase revenue.

 

2. Layout owners effectively subsidize these events through providing "entertainment" by displaying models and layouts that they have created, with values running into hundreds or thousands of pounds. Other than travel and accommodation expenses, they don't get any payment. It's doubtful whether most layout owners claim enough to cover all their expenses,anyway. I know of several layout where that applies.

 

3. While the paying customer has every right to expect to be entertained, it's difficult to define what that really means. A beautifully crafted scene may satisfy one visitor, while another may want to see lots of (unprototypical) action. So the organiser has his job cut out in providing a range of items that will meet his target customers expectations.

 

4. As for customer expectations do organiser know what these are? Would they benefit from providing "feedback" forms? Or is it a question of "this is the way we always do it"?

 

5. While everyone is entitled to critique the exhibits, they should bear in mind that those doing it are "volunteers" (see item 2) and should word what they have to say with that in mind.

 

6. Most layout operators will accept constructive criticism given first hand at the show where it can be discussed/reviewed, rather than online afterwards when it may be difficult for the layout owner/operator to benefit fully from it, appreciate it or not get annoyed /upset.

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

That will be Volunteers as in doing it through choice I guess? No coercion or anything?

 

Like doing something you want to do and accepting any praise.......should also be prepared to accept any criticism then really

Yes, that's volunteers as in doing something on a voluntary basis.

 

Accepting criticism for what you do goes with that, as you point out. However, it's how that criticism is phrase/presented that makes the difference between it being constructive or destructive. The latter achieves nothing, perhaps other than making the person doing the criticising feel smug.

[Guest Celticwardog]

There is another issue too. Criticism on any forum but not said to your face is just being 2-faced. You will always get the worst of people online and some people think they can post what they like and it doesn't matter. There is a thread on here about the imminent realease of the Cock O' The North and it descends into a childish, petty argument from grown men attacking each other about which shades of green are correct. Anyone who contributed to that or others like should be bloody ashamed of yourself!  You also see it where people have been arrested from what they stuck on Facebook and Twitter. For some reason some don't see it as "real".

 

If you do get it face to face, constructive or not, I think you have to look at who is saying it. there is a big difference from a comment from someone who you know is good in their field than from some nerd who probably couldn't do any better, has probably never built a layout and if they have will probably never show it.

[250BOB]

There is another issue too. Criticism on any forum but not said to your face is just being 2-faced. You will always get the worst of people online and some people think they can post what they like and it doesn't matter. There is a thread on here about the imminent realease of the Cock O' The North and it descends into a childish, petty argument from grown men attacking each other about which shades of green are correct. Anyone who contributed to that or others like should be bloody ashamed of yourself!  You also see it where people have been arrested from what they stuck on Facebook and Twitter. For some reason some don't see it as "real".

 

If you do get it face to face, constructive or not, I think you have to look at who is saying it. there is a big difference from a comment from someone who you know is good in their field than from some nerd who probably couldn't do any better, has probably never built a layout and if they have will probably never show it.

 

I agree that criticism is worse when not said face to face.  I would find it difficult at an Exbn to tell the operator I think your operating isnt very good.

 

So is there not a sensible way of rating exbn layouts, by posing a list of say 10 questions that we paying public have to score layouts by.??

 

It does away with all the "vitriol" that is sometimes written in emails.

 

If you dont hear what people like or dont like about a layout...how do things improve on that layout.

 

I congratulate all those who take the time to display an exbn layout, be it good or poor, but we can all learn from polite criticism.

 

Bob

[96701]

I helped with running a layout for the first time at this exhibition. It had been out of use for the previous 3 years because the owner hasn't the space to erect it. It can be run with 2 operators, but definitely benefits from having a third operator. There's one needed at the back to despatch trains from and collect trains into the fiddle yard, one at the front to drive the trains along the visible bit of the layout, and another one to shunt trains ready for despatch from the front of the layout. Because the owner has to carry out various clerical functions (filing expense claims, responding to queries from organisers etc), I went along to make the numbers up to 4 for the Saturday.

 

Part way through Saturday, it became evident that a key double slip was playing up and leading to an occasional derailment. The owner took the decision to disappear under the layout to try to fix the double slip which blocked the main line. That is a very difficult decision to make, because it stopped us running trains. I was standing at the front with a controller in my hand, somebody else was standing at the fiddle yard ready to send a train, and somebody else was shunting from behind the backscene. I ended up chatting to the paying public explaining what was going on, asking to the owner whether or not we could run a train and nodding to the bloke operating the fiddle yard when to send me a train to keep the public occupied.

 

This brought it home to me how difficult it is to keep the paying public entertained with a piece of electro-mechanical gubbins fastened to bits of wood. Anybody who can build such a thing that can work continuously for 8 hour stints without anything stalling or derailing deserves plenty of plaudits, and if something happens to go wrong whilst you as a paying member of the public are watching, please understand that there is no such thing as 100% reliability.

[Tom J]

As one of those who named a particular layout early in the thread, and having read the plethora of comments, I feel bound to reflect on them as succinctly as possible!

 

I travelled a reasonable mileage and paid for both my little boy and I to get in. As such I have a right to draw conclusions and hold opinions, and a responsibility to make any expression of those opinions fair and charitable in its expression.

 

I have considerable empathy with operators. I have been there and done it myself, several times with layouts that have worked well (belonging to others) and once with a layout that ran like a dog (belonging to me - I was thirteen at the time!). In all circumstances I tried to greet and engage with as many people who came to look at my exhibit as possible.

 

Model railway exhibitions are not a new phenomenon. They have been around long enough to make it possible to work out best practice, both in exhibition organising and in layout design and operation.

 

The layout which has drawn unfavourable comment, if it had a serious failure, did not make any attempt to convey this unfortunate turn of events to the paying public, whom, expenses or no expenses, volunteers or no volunteers, they were there to exhibit to. In the worst case of total failure, that massive layout could have been the subject of a few of the army of people who made it coming out and talking to folk about it. I feel it was for the layout team to break the awkward silence between them and the visitors, not to hide behind the layout.

 

Even so, on a layout that size, accepting that failures will occur from time to time, there must be redundancy and division of risk in the layout's design, so you can keep something moving whilst repairing the fault. That is prototypical operation at its core! I too have a nagging feeling I have walked away from the same layout at another exhibition in similar circumstances previously.

 

Meantime, the most pleasurable experiences of the day were the layouts where people spoke to us, and where the layout did what it promised. Having been let down by a big OO layout which you would have thought would be his cup of tea, my five year old particularly enjoyed two narrow gauge layouts with little operational 'excitement' but with bags of character, beautiful craftsmanship and exhibitors who were prepared to engage with us. He stood and looked at Cliffhanger, not even noticing the prototypical simplicity and sparsity of the railway component of it, for far longer than he maintained interest in practically any other exhibit at Peterborough. and went back twice! The lady who stands out front on 'Warren Lane' is a great example, too - always busy talking to folk whilst shunting under the crane.

 

Just to pick up the comment about visitors in wheelchairs, my wife and I both raised an eyebrow at the comment on the website about disabled visitors and entry prices. It can be a minefield, I fully accept; I have encountered those in my years on the railway who are too busy looking for an argument to see that people are looking to help them! Nevertheless, I sympathise very much with this problem, and I for one would be content to know that in the overall economics of running a show, the cost of mitigations for those less able to see layouts well off the floor were included in the ticket price for all.

 

I say all of this whilst working on plans for my son's layout, which he is desperate to exhibit one day. I am at the moment having to think about viewing heights, failure modes and how we would present (or indeed one might say perform!) to the public if it is to do what it will say on the tin - assuming of course that there is even demand for our intended 'product'!

 

I think the bulk of the criticism has been fair, it has been reasoned and it has been made by people who, after all, paid to see a show. Where it has not, I do agree that kindness and courtesy matter! The particular layout's woes do seem, unfortunately, to have overshadowed a far greater volume of plaudits for exhibits and exhibitors, much of which often appears on layout rather than exhibition threads, I would venture to suggest because exhibitors and visitors have already interacted in person.

[ThaneofFife]

i know it wasnt spot on as ive already said but repeating the disappointments ad nauseum aint gonna make it any worse than it actually was.........flippin eck it wasnt that bad.

 

there was other stuff at the show......

[t-b-g]

Some interesting views expressed, most of which have been covered before on various threads, some of them several times over.

 

The question of layout heights will never be resolved. Too high, younger folk and wheelchair people can't see. Too low, adults standing up complain that they are looking down on everything. There is no right answer and never will be. I have various layouts with different heights and I can't even make my own mind up which I prefer but I am tending toward lower ones as I now prefer sitting down to operate.

 

I spent the weekend operating "Gresley Beat" at the show in Utrecht. If there was a time when nothing was moving on the layout (in 3 days) I didn't see it.

 

I think the most we had going on the viewing section at one time was 5. For an operator, it is quite dull and boring as 4 drivers have a selection of trains in loops and runs them round one after another. It is only the shed/carriage siding operator that does any shunting. For the viewer, it is spectacular watching the different combinations of trains passing, overtaking and crossing over each other and the number of combinations of such events means that the same moves rarely happen together.

 

The point is that the layout was designed as a pure "show" layout and the track layout, controls and fiddle yards are all set out to allow trains to be kept running. Each of the 4 main lines is completely electrically and mechanically separate layout and it would take a complete power failure to stop it running. Each train just needs one operator to make it go.

 

Some layouts seem to need the participation of many operators before something can happen and if just one of them is otherwise occupied everything stops.

 

Operation of layouts at shows has also been covered many times in many places and no satisfactory conclusion has ever been reached but I would say that I have seen a lot of "exhibition" layouts where the planning and design of the operational side of things was sadly lacking!

 

The world of model railway exhibitions has changed dramatically since I got involved 30 plus years ago. Exhibitions usually had a number of layouts by club members, maybe one or two visiting layouts  and were a way for a club to boost funds to pay for clubrooms etc. Maybe a local model shop would have a "trade" stand. People were very happy to give up a few days of their time to help their club out.

 

They have now, in many cases, evolved from that very amateurish start into very professional set ups. These include shows like Peterborough and Doncaster, run by full time, employee exhibition organisers to boost the profits of their employers. Indirectly this benefits the hobby by allowing for the employment of people in model railway related jobs, such as running magazines and (websites!!) but it is a bit less of a direct support to the hobby than putting funds in the kitty for a club.

 

Such shows are a million miles away from the local club show of 30 years ago.

 

I often wonder if exhibitors started to charge for 3 or 4 days "wages" as part of their "expenses" whether these shows would still be viable but in a lot of ways it seems a bit odd that an otherwise "professional" fully commercial show relies on people giving their time for free. OK, so these good folk may get a bit of a kick out of having their work on show at a major exhibition but that is about all they do get (apart from comments on RMWeb) for all their hard work not only building but transporting and operating the layouts.

 

I also wonder if visitors, who perhaps pay more than they would do for a club show, have higher expectations than they would otherwise have and that, as a result, the operation and presentation of the layouts is given greater scrutiny and is subject to more severe comment than would be the case at a more "grass roots" show. I would certainly feel that way if I had spent more than I usually do to get into a show.

 

I always say that the operation should be appropriate to the layout on show. A BLT shouldn't have a service like Clapham junction but there shouldn't be gaps of more than say, 15 - 30 seconds between movements. A main line layout with loads of possible movement shouldn't even have that sort of gap and if there is potential for many simultaneous movements in the design of the layout, then it really looks good if at least a couple of things are moving at the same time.

 

But what about a big layout, with lots of tracks, lots of trains and nothing happening for several minutes? Unless there had been a major failure, that shouldn't really be happening. If there had been a major failure, something should have been said to those waiting to see something run.

 

Sorry to have rambled on but having just had a brilliant weekend in Holland, I have been RMWeb free for a few days and I am making up for it!

 

Tony

[Guest Celticwardog]

All good points Tom J. You are right about Cliffhanger, there isn't a huge amount of activity but its beautiful, original with exceptional architectural work. Its one of those layouts that is perfectly composed, rather like a painting. I have been talking to Ivan the guy behind it and County Gates (another as good as it gets layout) and he was saying someone described Cliffhanger, in earshot as a hedge in a box.

 

I was saying to him I think sometimes anyone who dares to try something different will always be put under a spotlight, but that it is just damn rude and not true.

 

This thread has gone way off topic and its right we seem to focusing on one layout as though it was the only one there and the fact that this one had problems spoilt the show, this is obviously not correct. For numerous reasons this I found to be one of the best shows in recent times.

[IGRL]

Actually, Cliffhanger was described as '12 ft of box hedge' on fora and by prominant members of the 009 Society.

 

Quite incorrect of course, as it is 16 feet of box hedge!

 

The three 009 layouts built by myself were from the outset designed as 'animated installation art'. I am unsure whether as such they disqualified themselves as model railways or not. I have always been prepared to sacrifice authenticity for composition. An example would be running the locomotives the wrong way round on the Bratton Fleming snow scene.

 

Such things have always caused 'distress' to some spectators! One person went as far as reporting me to the trading standards authority for describing it as Bratton Fleming for this reason! LOL This happened after its showing at Doncaster! The same person was furious about the phoney 'history' shown on Cliffhanger and County Gate.

[Guest Celticwardog]

I hope you didn't mind I shared that Ivan, it was to demonstrate the idiocy of some people and most will agree Cliffhanger is beautiful for what it is trying to achieve.

[IGRL]

Not at all but I accept that those who just want a lot of trains, my stuff is the pits!

[rope runner]

If one of the (admittedly, many) young operators of a certain large layout being discussed on this thread saw what many of us have written, would it encourage them to continue with the hobby - or detract from their enjoyment of it?

 

My personal opinion is that internet forums are not the place to negatively critique individual layouts, certainly not on-mass.

 

Just a thought.

 

Paul A.

[great central]

If one of the (admittedly, many) young operators of a certain large layout being discussed on this thread saw what many of us have written, would it encourage them to continue with the hobby - or detract from their enjoyment of it?

 

My personal opinion is that internet forums are not the place to negatively critique individual layouts, certainly not on-mass.

 

Just a thought.

 

Paul A.

 

By the same token then, an internet forum is not the place to praise a high quality layout? Best get all the images in the gallery removed for starters then

 

Talking to someone who was at the show all weekend, it seems there may be a fundamental flaw in the design of the layout, the youngsters are unlikely to have been responsible for that. 

Some years ago, there was a large layout based on a real location. Operating potential was huge, very busy four track main line, yards either side of line. When at shows it always lacked trains running, so only ever did a few shows to my knowledge, then disappeared.

 

As I have said before, the paying public have certain expectations, which if not met are likely to lead to adverse comments. The expectations are different both by the item being viewed and the viewer. A large main line is expected to have (quite a lot of) trains running.

A smaller layout such as Cliffhanger, which I've not seen, won't, but the quality of the scenics makes up for this. Looking at the pictures of it, it looks superb and I wouldn't expect to see a lot of trains on it, nonetheless I would spend quite some time looking at it as an example of quality modelling. Calling it a 'box hedge' strikes me as a rather tongue in cheek remark, more likely from somebody envious of the patience of the builder(s) and the quality of the finished article, a bit like me probably

[beast66606]

A general comment.

 

When a layout has been built to be broken down into little bits, loaded into a rough and ready transit (type) van and (sometimes) driven several hundred miles across the country, and then the little bits are reassembled - then, occasionally things do go wrong, how that is then dealt with is then the next matter.

I've been out with two large P4 layouts and each has had perfect days and bad days, at one show we were on carpet, not ideal for a P4 layout and it took a couple of hours for us to get all the joints perfect, once we did it was fine but the first hour or two was desperate for all concerned - of course from then on we took "carpet remedies" with us, but if the organisers (no names but a club who really should know better) had mentioned the carpet we might have been prepared in advance.

 

Regarding criticism, many years ago Widnes was criticised on a well known model railway news page, apparently no trains ran for ages - unknown to most, Widnes actually has data loggers which record what happens, so I provided a list of all the trains which did run during the time in question - an average of one every minute iirc - sometimes criticism is only justified in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think such comments are fine if the owners are in a position to reply, if not then a general "could do better" should suffice. I've had more than one discussion with people in front of the layout and I don't mind if they want to comment in the negative, as long as they don't mind when I reply. The favourite one is "that train spadded" "No it didn't, there's a subsidiary on the main post, it's going into a mythical yard, just off scene" "But the signal was at red" "Yes, the main aspect stays at red but the two white lights give the train permission to enter the yard" "But the signal was at red" etc. etc.

 

BTW - if anyone wants to take Widnes out and see how "easy" it is (and this is a simplified list), get in touch, you need to take leave on the Friday, collect the van, load the van, travel long distances, unload the van, assemble the layout, stay away from home, get tired operating the layout over the weekend, deal with silly questions, nice questions, nasty people, nice people, fix problems / don't fix problems (hopefully) pack the layout in the van, then get back late, store the layout, return the van, perhaps need more leave for the Monday as you're so tired  - all for expenses which typically don't cover everything so you end up out of pocket - and don't forget the thousands of pounds investment you've made in stock / time to build the layout and all the petrol / time spent trying to make it work reliably - yes, it's all very "easy" - when someone else does it.

[ThaneofFife]

BTW - if anyone wants to take Widnes out and see how "easy" it is (and this is a simplified list), get in touch, you need to take leave on the Friday, collect the van, load the van, travel long distances, unload the van, assemble the layout, stay away from home, get tired operating the layout over the weekend, deal with silly questions, nice questions, nasty people, nice people, fix problems / don't fix problems (hopefully) pack the layout in the van, then get back late, store the layout, return the van, perhaps need more leave for the Monday as you're so tired  - all for expenses which typically don't cover everything so you end up out of pocket - and don't forget the thousands of pounds investment you've made in stock / time to build the layout and all the petrol / time spent trying to make it work reliably - yes, it's all very "easy" - when someone else does it.

Whilst thats been nicely dressed up to look overly convoluted and dare I say it sacrificial (exhibitors surely take all that caffuffle on the chin because surely they love to do the circuits and nobody is suggesting its "easy"), it shouldnt preclude people from making their concerns known.  OK many of us here maybe more vocal than face to face "on the day" but as has always been the case unless those concerns are made known by whatever means then the operators that also frequent these forums will never know if theyve dropped the ball or not.  They might even get a grip on how they could possibly improve matters if faults develop next time round.

 

oh you missed out fuelling the van or you either wont get to the show or home afterwards! 

[beast66606]

You'll probably find there's an alter to worship at as well.

 

Expecting a club to give floor covering data is a bit silly frankly, next we'll be expecting to have the maximum and minimum tolerances of sprung floors in gyms available.

 

Wrong forum Paul

[beast66606]

Whilst thats been nicely dressed up to look overly convoluted 

 

You think ? you don't do exhibitions then.

[beast66606]

Not at all david, I can't recall the number of shows I've exhibited at. Only a few of them mention floors, generally gym based shows with don't scratch the floor. I could understand train service suspended due to the carpet in little johnnies living room but from my experience it is a new one even allowing for p4/s4 pushing the modelling boundaries. But expecting exhibition managers to give details of the floor covering is a bit much, Wigan as far as I recall don't do it ( apologies if they do in fact have an Axminster declaration) so why should anyone else.

 

 

It might not matter much to a OO plank (the layout) but a big P4 layout can easily be affected by the floor, carpets are notoriously uneven and move when people stand on them. gyms can have suspended floors which cause the layout to bounce, humps can cause problems with the layouts bending over them - all sorts of problems which don't affect OO, and certainly not planks - btw I've lost count of the number of shows I've done with big P4 layouts alone, never mind everything else I've done over the years.

 

Can we stick to the point instead of trying to score it please.