The National Festival of Railway Modelling 2013

[Mod4]

Gents

 

Indeed can we keep on topic with respect to the Peterborough show please.

[Guest Celticwardog]

Not wishing to come across as pedantic but....

 

Forum - a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

 

"My personal opinion is that internet forums are not the place to negatively critique individual layouts, certainly not on-mass"

 

Therefore cannot agree with that statement I'm afraid. Considering how many people attended the few on here making the odd comment hardly constitutes as on-mass either especially considering most have agreed that the actual construction and scale of the layout in question was impressive (though makes me wonder as Scotty would say re Excelsior: the bigger you build it the easier it is to stuff up the engine!)

 

On the flip side though I have also said we cannot focus on one layout that may have had a few issues and imply the whole show was ruined, it  obviously was not. The whole issue that has become diluted is that if you are going to show folk have the right to provide both positive and negative feed, it's the delivery that in question.

[Brandyman]

Well with all this negative talk, I might as well add my negative view, on the show.

 

The Cliffhanger Crew, affectionately known amongst ourselves as the "Desperado's" had a great time (as previously Stated)  .

 

However we backed on to the "BRM public demonstration/lecture theatre" 

 

While "Kevin" the co-builder was trying to listen to the "Archers" Sunday morning, this guy Andy started spouting off about "Photography" (He never noticed the Ariel mounted at the top of the display) The ensuing problems meant we had to fit Kevin with headphones. This lead to Kevin not hearing our newly installed (clockwork) timer for resetting the sound and filling the waterfall units. Having missed his cue, for at least five minuets Cliffhanger was not at its best for the viewing public.

 

Now I told Mr York  the night before "could you keep the noise down" but he seemed to ignore me.

 

"Mrs Trellis."

 

Why can't members be more proactive about the good things they see. which does help us all

 

Jeff  

[Andy Y]

Gents

 

Indeed can we keep on topic with respect to the Peterborough show please.

 

It's unfortunately necessary to reiterate this point and posts perpetuating arguments will be removed.

[IGRL]

I do agree Andy although I am shocked that the 'Axeminster Declaration' was dismissed so lightly. Surely it is as important as the Sykes Picot agreement which shaped Middle Eastern politics so hugely after WW1 ?

[Oldddudders]

I do agree Andy although I am shocked that the 'Axeminster Declaration' was dismissed so lightly. Surely it is as important as the Sykes Picot agreement which shaped Middle Eastern politics so hugely after WW1 ?

But RMweb doesn't do politics.

[wagonbasher]

 

It might not matter much to a OO plank (the layout) but a big P4 layout can easily be affected by the floor, carpets are notoriously uneven and move when people stand on them. gyms can have suspended floors which cause the layout to bounce, humps can cause problems with the layouts bending over them - all sorts of problems which don't affect OO, and certainly not planks - btw I've lost count of the number of shows I've done with big P4 layouts alone, never mind everything else I've done over the years.

 

Can we stick to the point instead of trying to score it please.

That is because p4stock doesn't have flanges on the wheels

 

Andy

[Brian Indge]

One has to ask, after nearly two weeks of postings on this forum, why nobody from the large layout that has caused most of the adverse comments has not come forward to explain if they had any difficulties at the Peterborough show. I went on the Sunday when hardly anything was seen moving, but was the same situation happening the previous day?

 

If there had been a fault then these things happen, but for no-one to say anything to those watching is not good PR. 

[Ravenser]

One has to ask, after nearly two weeks of postings on this forum, why nobody from the large layout that has caused most of the adverse comments has not come forward to explain if they had any difficulties at the Peterborough show. I went on the Sunday when hardly anything was seen moving, but was the same situation happening the previous day?

 

If there had been a fault then these things happen, but for no-one to say anything to those watching is not good PR. 

 

If the bulk of the operators were young they might well hesitate to respond on behalf of the layout group , especially if it was a question of walking into heavy machine gun fire on a national forum. And there's no guarantee that their club officers - who might know little of forums and care even less for them - would be interested in responding on their behalf 

 

For what it's worth I saw trains moving on the Saturday - and one appears in one of the shots I took.

[IGRL]

"especially if it was a question of walking into heavy machine gun fire on a national forum"

 

Wise people. I have no doubt they are aware. I have tried to respond in the past when I was the target and GPMGs instantly transformed into a barrage of heavy howitzers!

 

I suspect that bear baiting would have been the sport of choice in the past for some of forum members.

 

One thing for sure. I shall be amazed if that layout is ever booked again at shows, no matter what is subsequently done to resolve any problems and it will suffer the same blighted fate as Cliffhanger.

 

To devise backup methods of operation in the event of a major breakdown can be very complex and expensive indeed. I did so on my layouts and can attest to this. Luckily, we never had to resort to 'plan B'.

 

The 'paying public' were, IMO, treated to a world class show with 30 odd layouts of all kinds. The venue and organisation was excellent and even the food was better than average. I for one will hold good memories of Peterborough 2013 but the subsequent hoohaa also confirms why I do not continue with showing and railway modelling.

 

As a past time, it is safer to go out shooting bears with a BB gun.

 

 

 

 

.

[BR(S)]

I was appalled at the quality of this exhibition as, having paid my money to get in I found a load of lovely layouts with exquisite scenery but there were all these damn annoying trains running across them and getting in the way of my viewing.  There was one excellent layout that had very little running on it and this enabled me to enjoy the scenery.  Please make sure these people are invited to all future exhibitions, otherwise I will be very disappointed and will have to write to Model Rail to complain.

 

P.S. I should just add (as it seems to be the main factor people now use to beat their [mostly uninformed] opinion into the minds of others) that I paid my money to get in, which I have been told by loads of nice companies who want to look after me and aren't just after my cash means that I can say whatever I want and you have to act on it, even if it contradicts a load of other people who paid their money too.  Please ignore these other people as only I'm important; I don't want to see trains running across these lovely layouts and if I see it happening again, I won't be recommending your exhibition to my friends.

 

One has to ask, after nearly two weeks of postings on this forum, why nobody from the large layout that has caused most of the adverse comments has not come forward to explain if they had any difficulties at the Peterborough show . . . for no-one to say anything to those watching is not good PR. 

 

I believe the response for this OP should be a straight-to-the-point "get over yourself".  The layout owners would probably ask "What the hell is RMweb?".  They're not the Big Six and we're not a committee of MPs.   

 

Just my opinions anyway (and Debenhams, Tesco and Boots have all reminded me today that I'm the centre of the Universe); since no-one's given me any cash, my customer services line isn't interested in subsequent gripes . . .

[BR(S)]

Also, as "I paid my money" seems to be such a key factor in this thread, could I also please ask all posters to indicate whether they bought the cheaper advanced tickets to get in or paid full price on the door.  As I paid full price on the door, by the [vomit inducing] rules of consumerism and this thread, I'm not interested in the opinions of the cheap-seats who I was subsidising . . .

 

And now I'm off to marvel at the scenery on this thread, on which no trains are running: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77962-shelvington-p4-southern-region-circa-7580/

[Guest Celticwardog]

I clicked funny then have noticed the thread you posted was mine you cheeky mare! There's no bleedin' track yet you donut! lol

[Andy Y]

I clicked funny then have noticed the thread you posted was mine you cheeky mare! There's no bleedin' track yet you donut! lol

Doesn't matter; quite a lot of people are sniffing around that.

[Guest Celticwardog]

Oh & oops. I thought he was being sarcy as I have posted on here (I thought well reasoned & balanced) that it was a "who are you to be moaning when you don't have any trains" thing. I may have been wrong

 

Apologies BR(S) if you were being genuine.

[IGRL]

While I am the first to applaud the rebuilt Welsh Highland RaIlway, there was also a certain mystique to the overgrown empty trackbed that many of us saw for so long.

 

Next year Peterborough show. What about the WHR before track clearance? Perhaps Celticwardog might consider it with his superb scenic modelling. Animated sheep could substitute for trains.

[BR(S)]

Oh & oops. I thought he was being sarcy as I have posted on here (I thought well reasoned & balanced) that it was a "who are you to be moaning when you don't have any trains" thing. I may have been wrong

 

Apologies BR(S) if you were being genuine.

 

Happy to clarify.  I was using your top drawer modelling as an example of looking at superb scenery when there's not a train in sight (well, OK, that lovely Tadpole, but it's nowhere near the scenery!) and a general tip about what people could be doing if a miniscule proportion of an exhibition is having a hiccup.

 

This thread had taken what I would call a cheap and tacky direction in which (some of the usual axe-to-grind) people were, once again, taking something quite simple and blowing it not just out of all proportion but towards a place of mediocrity where none of us belong.  A simple "Dear Warners, great show, I got everything on my list and spent more than I should, by the way just to let you know that layouts X and Y had problems and I'd suggest change Z for the next show too.  Looking forward to next year.  Regards" would have been sufficient.  OK, maybe a "P.S. that Black Country Blues layout is pretty good but it needs a conductor rail and some slam door EMUs".    

 

I won't personally say any more on the subject as I do try to avoid these sorts of debates like I would an Endemol reality (sic) TV show, but it was getting ridiculous. 

[Guest Celticwardog]

Haha sorry again. Alas I have seen many a thread descend into really quite childish attacks and completely misread the spirit of your comment but then realised I had. Agreement also about the thread. My posts were though everyone does have the right to politely critique the intermittent function of one layout a bad show doth not make. I thought the show was great, easily as good as Warley except you could move around and actually see the layouts!

 

Oh and thanks for the compliment. My interest in model rail is pretty peripheral and must prefer scenics to the actual trains (blasphemy I know) but the best ones do have the best scenics like Cliffhanger, BCB, Warren Lane etc....)

[Ravenser]

Haha sorry again. Alas I have seen many a thread descend into really quite childish attacks and completely misread the spirit of your comment but then realised I had. Agreement also about the thread. My posts were though everyone does have the right to politely critique the intermittent function of one layout a bad show doth not make. I thought the show was great, easily as good as Warley except you could move around and actually see the layouts!

 

Oh and thanks for the compliment. My interest in model rail is pretty peripheral and must prefer scenics to the actual trains (blasphemy I know) but the best ones do have the best scenics like Cliffhanger, BCB, Warren Lane etc....)

 

 

Actually this is a very fair point - a model can be well worth looking at for it's scenic potential alone. In fact a long long time ago a "scenic model railway" was what people asprired to, and layouts such as John Ahern's Madder Valley were very much the cutting edge and seen as the jewels in the crown of the hobby. Now there seems to have been a slight question mark about how well the Madder Valley actually ran - and as preserved at Pendon it's largely a static exhibit - but that misses the point about why it was and remains one of the most inspirational layouts ever built. Similarly a large part of Pendon itself is about the scenics - it's a recreation of a world - and railway - that was not  about "lots of action", but in fact about the contrary

 

Years ago when I got sucked into a long and struggling layout project, I remember someone from another club laying down the law to me that the proposed layout should be as featureless and devoid of visual interest as possible "because people don't go to shows to look at the layouts - they go to cop the stock". I'm afraid I disagreed - and disagree - fairly profoundly though I didn't say much at the time. (If I'm going to put a lot of my time and effort into building a layout I don't want it to be on the basis "just remember nobody is interested in what you've done - they've come to see my stock").  I think quite a lot of  people appreciate good model making of all kinds which is why layouts like Dewsbury Midland and Tetleys Mills are admired.

 

However there is also clearly a sector of the show-going public , and an extremely vocal one - which wants their exhibition experience to replicate a day's train-spotting at Clapham Junction or Doncaster in the late 50's when they were 15- and this is where the occasional "pointed comments" about the best layout in a show being the Hornby Dublo one comes from. I'm not saying that's not a valid approach, but it's certainly not the only one , and to demand , aggressively, that everything on display at a show must cater for their particular taste is unreasonable. There is also a tendency for this to degenerate into the ugly side of the "demanding customer" routine  - "I've paid a fiver on the door so I own you , and when I say jump! all you say is how high?"  On those terms I'm not playing the game

 

I don't think there actually has to  be a lot of movement on a layout , if the movement  is continuous - just a single container moving slowly from stack to wagon or vice versa, a loco slowly shunting a couple of wagons, a chairlift rising and falling, a train drifting slowly through a scene 

 

Shelvington looks very good - it's good to see someone modelling a modern passenger railway , and doing it authentically . Your wargames background does show through in the quality and style of the paintwork. Look forward to seeing this at a show at some point

[BR(S)]

There is also a tendency for this to degenerate into the ugly side of the "demanding customer" routine  - "I've paid a fiver on the door so I own you , and when I say jump! all you say is how high?"  On those terms I'm not playing the game

 

Exactly right.  This is happening practically everywhere now and it's extremely ugly.  I'd hoped railway modellers would be the last to cave in. 

 

I think it's a measure of a great deal of life dissastisfaction, coupled with a "customer service" culture that has been pushed to insane levels (that no doubt saw an opportunity to extract cash from people in return for the lie that it would make them happier).  

 

This is getting off topic (but hopefully people will see the connection), but great examples of this is in the extreme are people who wilfully board trains without paying for a ticket (i.e. not because of some sort of mistake) and then they complain to the railway company about the evil Guard who penalty fared them when they are a valued customer!  Loads of stories like this over on http://www.railforums.co.uk/index.php, including the one about the passenger who ran across the tracks to catch a train and when the Guard refused him entry, the passenger then further trespassed to get to the signal box to ask for the Guard's name as he wanted to make a complaint as a "valued customer"! 

[ThaneofFife]

Exactly right.  This is happening practically everywhere now and it's extremely ugly.  I'd hoped railway modellers would be the last to cave in. 

 

I think it's a measure of a great deal of life dissastisfaction, coupled with a "customer service" culture that has been pushed to insane levels (that no doubt saw an opportunity to extract cash from people in return for the lie that it would make them happier).  

 

This is getting off topic (but hopefully people will see the connection), but great examples of this is in the extreme are people who wilfully board trains without paying for a ticket (i.e. not because of some sort of mistake) and then they complain to the railway company about the evil Guard who penalty fared them when they are a valued customer!  Loads of stories like this over on http://www.railforums.co.uk/index.php, including the one about the passenger who ran across the tracks to catch a train and when the Guard refused him entry, the passenger then further trespassed to get to the signal box to ask for the Guard's name as he wanted to make a complaint as a "valued customer"! 

I can see why you would want to have your say but then afterwards state the thread is off topic, but not so fast.......

 

I would genuinely like you to point me in the direction of where you have read in this thread that any of the posters have fallen into your "ugly customer service culture".  

 

I also care little about whether you paid more or less than any other visitor to show insofar as that lessens any persons entitlement to comment on the good or the bad points of the event.  Its not about targetting a particular stand or exhibit and its most certainly not about "life disatisfaction".  Not quite sure where you drummed that line of thought from but its most peculiar to say the least.

[Guest Celticwardog]

Perhaps it was a commentary on the focus of one layout and ridiculous subsequent almost implication that it's intermittent function killed what was otherwise a great show? That's what I am reading there but I am sure he will answer.

 

In answer to the scenic thing, to me the best layouts are the one that have a setting either rural or urban or whatever, and that a swathe has been cut through it to run a railway through it, rather like real life!

 

Though its true the placement of a railway station in the past would then lead to subsequent development around it obviously major groundworks would still have to occur for it to be there.

 

There are not a huge amount that pull this off but have to say without brown nosing that BCB does, that with its quality scenic work and overall muted colours make it a fine example.

[Ravenser]

I can see why you would want to have your say but then afterwards state the thread is off topic, but not so fast.......

 

I would genuinely like you to point me in the direction of where you have read in this thread that any of the posters have fallen into your "ugly customer service culture".  

 

I also care little about whether you paid more or less than any other visitor to show insofar as that lessens any persons entitlement to comment on the good or the bad points of the event.  Its not about targetting a particular stand or exhibit and its most certainly not about "life disatisfaction".  Not quite sure where you drummed that line of thought from but its most peculiar to say the least.

 

As the person making the original comment about "demanding customer" mentality being picked up - it was a general comment arising from a good few years of seeing "what we expect at a show as value for my money" discussions online, some of them on MREMag and MRF rather than here, and it was/is also the philosophical basis for a lot of "RTR model&manufacture-bashing" threads over the years - the late unlamented electricnose being a case in point.

 

A quick look through the thread found a number of posts which do seem to come from the angle of the rights of the "demanding customer" - eg nos 129,130,139,145,153,165,175, and this won't be an exclusive list,  - though its true I've seen more strident postings about "what I expect as a paying customer" in other discussions on other forums. I did once have someone - not at a show - inform me "I'm paying for your modelling, so you'd better behave." As it happens it was at least as true to say I was paying for his modelling, but it's a position I don't intend ever to be placed in again: I'm very happy to pursue my own modelling interests at my own expense to suit myself rather than get involved with exhibition layouts.

 

However the general point arising from this is that exhibition layouts are built and operated by volunteers, who give up their time to do so, who build and stock the layout at their own expense (often substantial), and whose expenses barely cover their immediate out of pocket costs if that. Effectively all they are getting out of the exercise is the warm glow while everyone else involved is rigourously costing their involvement in terms of cost/benefit and hard cash. And after threads like this, there's hardly going to be much warm glow...... Divide the entry price by the number of layouts and you usually get about 20p. How much of my soul does 20p buy?

 

It's worth remembering that railway modellers don't have to build layouts for exhibition. In fact in every other country bar Britain , the hobby does not revolve around exhibitions, and a generation or more ago it didn't in Britain either. If the builders and operators of exhibition layouts decided the game's not worth the candle , the hobby would carry on - but the exhibition circuit wouldn't. And when you read discussions like this, "the game's not worth the candle"  is very much the feeling I'm left with , and I suspect I may not be the only one

 

Must all railway modelling be driven by a percieved obligation to satisfy the potential visitor to an exhibition - who we are often told isn't really into the hobby and just wants to see things moving? ("Little-Johnny-wants-to-see-the-trains-run") 

[BR(S)]

I can see why you would want to have your say but then afterwards state the thread is off topic, but not so fast.......

 

I would genuinely like you to point me in the direction of where you have read in this thread that any of the posters have fallen into your "ugly customer service culture".  

 

I also care little about whether you paid more or less than any other visitor to show insofar as that lessens any persons entitlement to comment on the good or the bad points of the event.  Its not about targetting a particular stand or exhibit and its most certainly not about "life disatisfaction".  Not quite sure where you drummed that line of thought from but its most peculiar to say the least.

 

Hello Thane of Fife,

 

There are a couple of things you’ve stated that are misinterpretations of what I’ve said.  Your opening sentence is a misinterpretation, in fact a gross misrepresentation.   I think you’re attempting to portray me in a “Ignore this bloke, he’s trying to tell us what to do” way, when clearly where I said “This is getting off topic (but hopefully people will see the connection) . . . “, this refers to the point I’m about to make and is a flag to the moderators to indicate that BR(S) is aware he’s going off topic (I should have used the Off Topic emoticon perhaps).  Does it state that the thread is going off topic and this is somehow an issue for me?  No. 

 

Regarding my post in entry #194, it’s an extension of my entry #192 and not my actual stance.  I was portraying a logical (and I hoped humorous) extension of the importance people seem to place on paying for things that, if someone pays more, their opinion must be more valid, as anyone who has successfully lobbied an MP will testify to . . . 

 

Ravenser has provided a list of entry numbers that serve to illustrate the position I have taken.  Some of them have made additional reasonable points and I recognise that, but they do come back to that one key element - “I paid, therefore I am” - which, to me, undermines the reason.  It is this continual referral to the importance of money in regulating responses that interests me (if the exhibition has free entry, can Warners turn the lights off half way through without warning and go home?).  As Ravenser states, this goes deeper than just this one thread, but this was the one I chose to jump into.  Examples of this pop up all over the place on RMweb (and further afield) and it’s depressing to see, especially when it’s normally over something quite simple (in fact it's always over something quite simple and it does tend to be the same usernames cropping up).  The question that I choose to ask is why people have the need to overcomplicate the response and I can only ever correlate it with “life dissatisfaction” and an undercurrent of "I've paid money" and "I demand [insane levels of] customer service".  As per my ticketless traveller example, people who steal a good or service and still demand customer service are an extreme but growing example of this.  None of the people I know who are content with their lives engage in this kind of nonsense to any degree, other than filling in the occasional feedback form, sensibly.

 

Parts of what I say is of course theory based on my own experiences and anyone is free to agree or disagree with it.  I’m old enough to realise that some will find it “peculiar”, as people have done with most theories and a host of other things that are now either a part of our everyday lives or have long been forgotten.  Equally, there are people in the thread that agree with part of it and others who will know exactly what I’m talking about, both of which I certainly picked up from those who have exhibited layouts.  The debate is the important thing, but that does need more than one side; money talks, but it is so often a monologue. 

 

      

I hope that’s covered everything (for the importance of the discussion of course, not because anyone’s paying me to respond).  I wonder how many people in the video below would say “Well, I was going to hand over my money so . . .”?  Perhaps this will be the entry to Warley in a few years! 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Y]

Perhaps this will be the entry to Warley in a few years!

Pah, that's nothing; it's only like the advanced ticket holders rush to the Bachmann bunfight at Warley and Ally Pally. No wonder they build the stand as a corral with all staff safely within the boundaries for opening.

 

I do see your points BR(S) but as with the rest of life its the vocal minority vs. the moderate majority with several candidates for a "Pragmatism for Dummies" course.