Colin parks Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Hi Colin, The 4Sub looks the business in your latest batch of photos. I especially like the one next to the Signal Box. Good luck with the move to P4, at least you don't have any steamers to convert. Changing gauge is a big decision, at the moment I am giving serious consideration in moving up to 7mm and disposing of my 4mm models. Good luck again. Cheers for now, Ian. Hi Ian, Thanks for your comments re. the 4 SUB. Re moving to P4, you are right, having no steam locos means much less effort! The first loco I intend to convert will be the class 73 (conversion time= about 20 mins. with Ultrascale wheels). This loco can easily be reverted back to 00 should the need arise. As for the 4 SUB and the rest of the stock so fitted, it is more a matter of cost rather than technical difficulty, with each unit requiring a new P4 Black Beetle motor bogie @ £50.00 a pop plus the trailing wheels of course. It is still cheaper than 0 gauge, which I would have considered, but I don't even have the room for the length of trains I want to run in 4mm. I guess that a 4 SUB in 0 gauge would be about 6ft long - gulp! All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2014 Hi Ian, Thanks for your comments re. the 4 SUB. Re moving to P4, you are right, having no steam locos means much less effort! The first loco I intend to convert will be the class 73 (conversion time= about 20 mins. with Ultrascale wheels). All the best, Colin It's not the full Old Lugger conversion then, including full working third rail pickup's. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 ... As for the 4 SUB and the rest of the stock so fitted, it is more a matter of cost rather than technical difficulty, with each unit requiring a new P4 Black Beetle motor bogie @ £50.00 a pop plus the trailing wheels of course. Are you sure you need a new bogie? - I 'ave nivver sin nowt yet wot corn't be converted!! SUB looks better and better... Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 It's not the full Old Lugger conversion then, including full working third rail pickup's. SS No SS, Simon's work is at the cutting edge of what is possible. I'm doing P4 for dummies or else I shall not do it at all! Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Are you sure you need a new bogie? - I 'ave nivver sin nowt yet wot corn't be converted!! SUB looks better and better... Good luck! Hi Howard, So tell me more: If the basic motor bogies can be kept, it would save a lot of re-fitting of the cosmetic motor bogie side frames. Can you think of a way to replace the 00 axles of a Black Beetle and replace them with P4 ones? I have plenty of time on my hands, a lathe and vernier gauges, so pray tell, what is the answer? All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Well, having not done one personally, I can't give you a detailed answer yet. My point was there has always been a way so far! But there are two separate points in play here - one related to the cosmetics (sideframes, brake rigging etc). That bit might be a fag or it might be easy - dependent on the extent you allowed for clearances / removeability etc when you put them together. But your point in your first post was about having to buy new power units at fifty quid a pop - that issue is completely separate from the above. Now it could be that there is something about the BB which makes it impossible (perhaps the axles can't be removed from the bogie or the gears are integral with the wheels). But my experience of the Bachmann CEP and EPB, the Hornby BIL and the Tenshodo SPUD has been that there were a doddle. AND I do not possess a lathe and my use of a vernier was just to measure the axles diameter. Perhaps this thread is not the place to go into details, but I would be happy to start another thread about how I did my conversions - if there is interest? Posting at 01.39 eh? Glad to see you are taking things easy during your recovery!! Very Best wishes, Edited February 28, 2014 by HAB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Hi Howard, Yes 1.39am it was. If you had the same cocktail of drugs coursing through your veins as I have, you'd probably have been up late too! (disrupted sleep patterns seems to be a side effect of all these tablets.) Anyway, back to matters of a more serious nature: If you are going to show us all how to convert a Hornby 2 BIL to P4,you could either start another topic or place your posts on the 'Hornby 2 BIL upgrade topic' - it's up to you. I for one want to know how to convert a 2 BIL, so a that's one follower you have already! The problem with the Black Beetle which sets it apart from the Hornby motor bogies, (of which I have four in total to convert), is that the gears and wheels are press - fitted onto the to the plastic moulding which forms the inside bearings for the axles and the mounting socket onto the motor. Exhibit one (its not too good a shot, but shows the relevant parts well enough): The above picture is taken from the 2 HAP build, but the 4 SUB is identical in all respects, even down to the clips which locate the cosmetic side frames in place. The transoms were much too wide on the Branchlines' kit's whitemetal castings shown here, with 1.5mm being removed. The transoms are easily altered if too narrow (although that would have implications for the alignment of the shoe beams if they were widened again). The brake rigging is not an issue - it will have to be re-aligned anyway. So if you do have an answer let me know: What type of P4 axles/wheels could be substituted should it be possible to get these assemblies apart? They would have to be from the Ultrascale range ideally, as I am going to standardise all the P4 wheels and use only that manufacturer's products where possible. There are at least four BBs in my EMUs, so it would be a considerable saving if this can be done. No pressure then Howard! All the best, Colin Edited February 28, 2014 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi Colin, P4 conversion info here: http://www.southerne...nby-2bil-2.html Although twice the price of Gibsons I will be using BB wheels as I've always found them exemplary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david65061 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Dear Colin I have converted an 00 black beetle to EM. It was a long time ago so I can't remember all the details. You have to take it apart, remove the wheels then pull the axle out leaving the final drive cog behind. The new wheel set needs dismantling the axle reinserting picking up the drive cog. I had to glue the cog back on using loctite603. this must be quite difficult as I remember I nearly glued the whole mechanism solid or perhaps I just made a mess of it. once the new wheels were put back on I had a working em black beetle. It can't be that hard if I managed it as I find mechanisms and chassis difficult to get right. Good luck with the move to P4 regards David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi Colin, Well if model railways are a help for your condition, you are well on the path to recovery! I posted on the BIL Motor Bogie here:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82914-converting-hornbys-emu-motor-bogie-to-p4/&do=findComment&comment=1364061 I feel that to be a pretty well engineered solution - better than abusing Ultrascale wheels, which are a bit too good to be mistreated! I have not said anything about the trailers - as you know I don't compensate such things so it does not take a particle physicist to work out how to swap wheelsets! Re BBs, we are blazing a bit of a trail here - no one else I have asked seems to have done one - they just buy the P4 version! That said, one potential road might be to find out if BB would supply new axles and wheels sets - no point in inventing solutions to non-existant problems! That failing, before I come up with any bright (?) ideas - a bit of data please - Are you able to take one of your BBs to bits? (if it is impossible, then were are tucked up!) Also what OD and ID are the plastic muffs? Is the gear moulded integrally with the muffs? Obviously, dissecting bogies might not be your top priority right now - but feel free to drop me a pm when the time is right and I will be more than happy to see what can be done. Take it easy and hope you sleep better tonight! Very Best wishes, Howard. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks to you John, David and Howard for tips on the conversions to P4. I have a mind to take apart one failing BB which is in my BR 2 HAP at the moment. The gears are almost stripped on this non-runner so taking it apart is not going to do any harm and maybe it could be re-geared and end up under the 4 SUB one day. If it were possible to buy 14mm dia. Ultrascale wheels and just press-fit them onto the existing axles of the motor bogie as David describes, that would be very convenient. I know it isn't an engineered solution Howard, so forgive me for even thinking of it! The one possible snag I will have with the 4 SUB trailing bogies is that they have all been fitted with brass pin-point bearings. How accurately aligned the axles now are is open to question and possibly not well enough for running with P4 wheels without compensation. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted March 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2014 Sounds like you are making a perfect case for EM, go on, you know you want to Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Thanks to you John, David and Howard for tips on the conversions to P4. I have a mind to take apart one failing BB which is in my BR 2 HAP at the moment. The gears are almost stripped on this non-runner so taking it apart is not going to do any harm and maybe it could be re-geared and end up under the 4 SUB one day. If it were possible to buy 14mm dia. Ultrascale wheels and just press-fit them onto the existing axles of the motor bogie as David describes, that would be very convenient. I know it isn't an engineered solution Howard, so forgive me for even thinking of it! The one possible snag I will have with the 4 SUB trailing bogies is that they have all been fitted with brass pin-point bearings. How accurately aligned the axles now are is open to question and possibly not well enough for running with P4 wheels without compensation. Colin I am looking forward to seeing the pics of the BB entrails. Re the trailer bogies - flirt the old wheels out and the new ones in - and see what happens. You would be amazed what people get away with in P4 - try not to listen to the EM Propaganda Machine which would have it that anything less than perfection is a disaster!!! Very best wishes, Edited March 1, 2014 by HAB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted March 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 1, 2014 Sounds like you are making a perfect case for EM, go on, you know you want to Mike. Edited You would be amazed what people get away with in P4 - try not to listen to the EM Propaganda Machine which would have it that anything less than perfection is a disaster!!! Very best wishes, Oh No !!!!! An EM verses P4 bundle !!!!! Choosing which gauge to model is a bit like the choice of your lady. Do you go for the sexy looking one who enjoys the bedroom activities or the plainer one who cooks lovely food, is prepared to wash your smalls and take the dog out when it is raining so you can carry on playing with your model railway? I am sure we all take the path we are comfortable with....so why am I doing the washing up, taking the dogs out (in the rain), putting the next load in the washing machine while she is with her horse? And I model 00? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Perhaps the manufacturers may be able to supply replacement wheelsets? http://www.steameramodels.com/bbeetle.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Oh No !!!!! An EM verses P4 bundle !!!!! Choosing which gauge to model is a bit like the choice of your lady. Do you go for the sexy looking one who enjoys the bedroom activities or the plainer one who cooks lovely food, is prepared to wash your smalls and take the dog out when it is raining so you can carry on playing with your model railway? I am sure we all take the path we are comfortable with....so why am I doing the washing up, taking the dogs out (in the rain), putting the next load in the washing machine while she is with her horse? And I model 00? Hi Clive, Gosh, after reading your description of modelling gauges, I am now looking at the 4 SUB and its P4 conversion with different eyes. It could be the opiates in my pain-relief patch, or did the SUB just wink at me and say: " how's about a bit of P4-play then mister?!" Re: "And I model 00?" I thought you were modelling Tinsley yard MPD in P4 - or have I got that wrong?! All the best, Colin Sounds like you are making a perfect case for EM, go on, you know you want to Mike. Hi Mike, I really don't want to get into a gauge war! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted March 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hi Clive, Gosh, after reading your description of modelling gauges, I am now looking at the 4 SUB and its P4 conversion with different eyes. It could be the opiates in my pain-relief patch, or did the SUB just wink at me and say: " how's about a bit of P4-play then mister?!" Re: "And I model 00?" I thought you were modelling Tinsley yard MPD in P4 - or have I got that wrong?! All the best, Colin Hi Colin Tinsley will be P4 but at the moment I am still 00 with Hanging Hill (retired), Brisbane Road, my little ingelnook layout and the start of Cripple Gate. Tinsley is a long term project which I hope to enjoy when my wife and the government let me retire. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Sorry to hear about your illness, let us all hope that you have a speedy recovery. There is some cracking work on here. all to an excellent standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirNigelGresley4498 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Drawing to mind the writings of Ian Rice on the subject of building loco chassis - IRL the actual vertical movement of the wheels is very small indeed - a matter of inches. The overwhelming majority of suspension in a railway is actually provided by the PW itself, and the wobble of a poorly compensated chassis is one of the strange things we of the P4 fraternity are willing to put up with in our models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Drawing to mind the writings of Ian Rice on the subject of building loco chassis - IRL the actual vertical movement of the wheels is very small indeed - a matter of inches. The overwhelming majority of suspension in a railway is actually provided by the PW itself, and the wobble of a poorly compensated chassis is one of the strange things we of the P4 fraternity are willing to put up with in our models.Hi SirNigel, I have never built anything with compensation so cannot comment much of the matter. What I am going to do is increase the weight of any item of stock which is converted to P4. I the case of the 4 SUB this extra weight will be in the form of lead strips glued under the seats. I have this theory that the heavier a thing is the more it will flex enough to hold the track. My scratch-built chassis on these EMUs are fairly flexible due to their construction. Only testing will prove the theory one way or the other, but from now on I am going to take as much trouble with the track as I do with the models that will run on it. That should at least reduce the risk of wobble. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 ... but from now on I am going to take as much trouble with the track as I do with the models that will run on it. That should at least reduce the risk of wobble. .. now there is an excellent philosophy and one from which others might usefully profit!! Very Best Wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted March 2, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2014 Basic compensation is not too difficult, my Lima CCT with 14mm wheels is compensated with a bent piece of brass 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted March 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2014 Basic compensation is not too difficult, my Lima CCT with 14mm wheels is compensated with a bent piece of brass On my stock I call that the underframe. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) .. now there is an excellent philosophy and one from which others might usefully profit!! Very Best Wishes, Well Howard, let's wait until the philosophy is put to some practical application. The easiest way that I can see to prove this is to build some track and a point or two then run a converted EMU backwards and forwards with the hope that it doesn't derail. Having said that, with the current waiting time for Ultrascale products being six months, I shall probably have to re-wheel the 4 SUB with Exactoscale wheels more out of expediency than choice. Given the narrower tread width of Exactoscale wheels, the test will be slightly tougher. All the best, Colin Edited March 2, 2014 by Colin parks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted March 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2014 On my stock I call that the underframe. Mike. I just drilled 2 holes for bearings, soldered a bit of tube as a pivot and glued the Lima W irons on top. I turned the wheels down on a Lima 08 by running it against a file! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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