Bachmann to produce ex LBSC Atlantic H2 Class 4-4-2

[Guest spet0114]

Bachmann don't do things the hard way just for the sake of it so I expect to see a rigid set-up like a 4-6-0 with sideplay and (hopefully) springing on the driving axle wheelset to get it round corners.

 

 

Surely the 'not hard' way is to copy Hornby's approach to 4-6-2's, i.e. a flangeless rear axle with an option for a flanged one as user curves permit?

 

Not saying that's what I'd like to see, but if Bachmann really want to minimise development time/effort.....

 

Cheers

Adrian

[Oldddudders]

Surely the 'not hard' way is to copy Hornby's approach to 4-6-2's, i.e. a flangeless rear axle with an option for a flanged one as user curves permit?

 

Not saying that's what I'd like to see, but if Bachmann really want to minimise development time/effort.....

 

 

Wouldn't a 4-coupled loco with flangeless rear wheels waddle wonderfully?

[Guest spet0114]

Wouldn't a 4-coupled loco with flangeless rear wheels waddle wonderfully?

 

Would it, in principle, waddle no more or less than a 4-4-0, as the trailing wheels are essentially just decoration and have no significant interaction with the track?

[frobisher]

spet0114, on 06 Sept 2013 - 15:26, said:

Would it, in principle, waddle no more or less than a 4-4-0, as the trailing wheels are essentially just decoration and have no significant interaction with the track?

The waddle won't be as apparent as the 4-4-0 doesn't have a big booty to shake

[Miss Prism]

What is the axle weight distribution for the H2?

[Guest spet0114]

The waddle won't be as apparent as the 4-4-0 doesn't have a big booty to shake

Fair point - let's hope Bachmann don't go down this particular route!

[Anglian]

Very pleased to read this but not surprised. I would be very happy if they were able to produce an LBSC version but suspect that might not be possible.

[t-b-g]

I don't think that an Atlantic is any easier or harder than an outside framed 4-4-0.

 

Having built a kit for a GWR outside framed 4-4-0 I can confirm that getting it to go round corners ain't easy! The bogie wheels go up inside the outside valances. I remember the old Triang Lord of the Isles had a great semi circle cut out of the footplate valance to allow a bit of sideplay round tight curves and I will be very interested to see what Bachmann have done.

 

The need for outside cranks as an extra complication could well mean that the production costs of the Atlantic and the 4-4-0 could well be similar.

 

Doing the Atlantic as a 4-6-0 won't help the clearances around the rear bogie wheels. Taking the fixed wheelbase further back means that the bogie needs more sideplay and there just isn't scope for very much. As a wildcard entry, I would suggest a 2-6-2, with the rear bogie wheels fixed in the frames and a fudged "bogie" where just the leading wheel is pivoted. 

 

I have seen this sort of arrangement on a model loco (an outside framed 4-4-0 which will go round 2'3" radius curves in EM) and it works a treat as long as you can disguise the con.

 

Tony

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

What is the axle weight distribution for the H2?

They won't have been wildly different from the GNR C1, for which I have 40 tons (20 each) on the driving wheels, 16 tons on the bogie, 14 ton on the trailing axle. Cannot remember where I got those numbers from, they are hand written in my copy of the Weight GNR loco monograph. The H2 was nominally lighter than the final development of the C1 which was almost bang on 70 ton. But then works estimates are one thing, what actually got built another.

 

As you might expect, and accounts by C1 footplate crew confirm, they yawed, most of this occuring at the rear end. There was no side control springing on the GNR loco trailing axle, and up to a foot of side to side motion of the cab relative to the tender was observable when going hard. (This was generally considered to be an asset in moving the fire down the grate!)

[Oldddudders]

What is the axle weight distribution for the H2?

For the predecessor H1, which was the GN design slightly modified, Maskelyne quotes 16.25 tons on the bogie, 38.5 tons evenly divided on the coupled wheels, 13.75 on the trailing wheels .

 

For the H2 he quotes 17.5 tons on the bogie, 37.5 tons on the coupled wheels and 13.5 tons on the trailing wheels.

[sir clifford]

.

 

Did Beachy Head ever manage to acquire the late BR Crest, or did she go to her end still in the early emblem ?

 

Thanks

 

.

Hi Phil,I can confirm Beachy Head never received the late crest,she was withdrawn early 1958 after arailtour hope this helps trevor aka sir clifford

[wilks]

This is very exciting news especially if Bachmann do go on to produce an LNER C1 Atlantic - I have an old Ks kit - BR Black 62822 but needs attention.

 

What are the physical differences between an H2 and a C1 (besides the obvious ones of the cab and tender) - some have been alluded to in this thread. 

 

The H2 cylinders are bigger but what about over the cylinder wrapper? The smaller C1 cylinders would help with bogie wheel clearance!!

 

Photos of C1 suggest that there is slightly larger clearance over the pony truck leaf spring than on the H2. It may only be 4 to 6 inches different but they do look subtlely different in this area at the bottom of the firebox/cab/footplate/pony truck spring. Can anyone confirm this.

 

   

[darren01]

Hi Phil,I can confirm Beachy Head never received the late crest,she was withdrawn early 1958 after arailtour hope this helps trevor aka sir clifford

I can confirm that Bechey head was scraped ,still carrying the early BR logo, I have the photo of her with her rods removed , you can clearly see the logo on the tender. Edited September 18, 2013 by darren01

[GNR Dave]

This announcement is fantastic news. I would have obviously been far happier with a GNR machine, but as has already been suggested, the Ivatt version may well be on the cards.  

 I remember talking to Bachmann at Ally Pally a few years ago on the subject of an Atlantic, and being told it wouldn't happen because of balance problems. I decided to buy the DJH white metal kit, but my skills in loco building are rubbish, and don't get me started on the beautiful but complicated GNR livery !

 I think it's also good to see the manufacturers offering alternatives to the six driving wheel arrangement in recent years. Maybe my dream of a modern tooling of a Sterling Single may one day become a reality ?

[Dick Turpin]

 I would have obviously been far happier with a GNR machine...

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Bachmann aren't already working on a NRM special release for the Great Northern version. Whatever happens it's great news all round I think.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Dick Turpin

[Gulliver]

^{I see Hattons are offering it to pre order @£86 which seems pretty reasonable. Obviously the lessons of the recession and lack of disposable income are hitting home with manufacturers. As to announcing it as a spoiler to Hornby, remember Hornby not exactly blessed with manufacturing options at the moment.}

 

 

^{I can't understand how Hattons can do that, let alone at that level; is the information correct?  Based on current Bachmann prices these atlantics would have an RRP of c.£140-155ish but 2015 is incalculable price variations away from September 2013 so the RRP could be 10-15% greater, or more, and is hardly likely to drop I would have thought.  In fact the future is so unclear that even Bachmann don't yet quote a price for their own product!}  

 

^{So how have Hattons arrived at a price (assuming they have)?  And if they have just how valid is it for locos which are 2 years away - all sounds very odd to me and if that price is correct I suspect they'll be getting as many advance orders from other retailers as they will from end customers.}

 

 

^{To clarify, Bachmann not surprisingly at this stage have not released any pricing information.}

 

Hattons have taken a flyer off their own back and if you read the text of the pricing announcement they advise they would honour any reduction in price for pre-orders but if the price increases they would advise customers accordingly to allow them to cancel the order if they wished.

 

The latter re a price increase is much more likely than the former in my mind.

 

 

^{I'd say you're bang on there Muz; Mike's assessment on likely pricing is broadly accurate too although no price, due to the reasons you state Mike, has been confirmed yet.} 

 

^{I still think it's grossly misleading - and perhaps rather obvious why they have done it (which strikes me as 'sharp practice').  It is plainly obvious that the loco is going to cost a lot more that 80 odd quid when you look at Hattons price, let alone the RRP, for the Bachmann 'Dukedog' which is in many respects a far simpler loco to produce than an outside cylinder engine with an extra set of trailing wheels.  Plus the release date is so far off even the brightest crystal ball in the world cannot predict changes in the umpteen factors which affect the UK price of something manufactured in China.}

 

^{Headline numbers are probably far more important than caveats when it comes to selling something.  What grabbed attention was not the offer of a chance to forego your reservation if you didn't like the (inevitable) price increase but the price.  And what also matters when you do know the real price is the urge to hang-on to a reservation you've made by pre-ordering instead of taking your chance getting onto the lists of another retailer.  All in all it's a 'clever' sales ploy - end of story.  And there's already enough information in this thread to get a pretty fair idea of what the loco actually will cost, albeit at =2013 prices, when subjected to Bachmann's 15% initial discount limit (i.e. on release Hattons won't be able to sell them for any less than any other retailer who cares to apply the maximum permitted discount).}

 

Bumping this in the light of the NRM announcement today, with a price of £179 for a very similar loco, shows The Stationmaster to be spot on (as usual!).

Edited July 29, 2014 by Gulliver

[Graham_Muz]

Indeed but it should be taken into account that the pricing of an exclusive limited edition model (s) as per the NRM C1 is on a slightly different basis to that of a model in the standard manufacturers range. Saying that I don't see the H2 being far off the current NRM once it actually hits the shelves.

[Graham_Muz]

Also for those thinking that there should be a high proportion of common parts between the H2 and the C1, it is not really the case as I discuss on my blog today here http://grahammuz.com/2014/07/29/armchair-r-t-r-tooling-and-manufacturing-logistics/

[coachmann]

While folk may assume some parts that build one Atlantic can also build another, I don't. What does exist though is 'commonality', which means to say that while Bachmann is working on a 4-4-2 chassis that does not intrude into the boiler or cab and is steady running without hunting, plus devising a superstructure for ease of assembly, they have applications for a similar Atlantic.  This is why I was not surprised to see the NRM commissioning the GNR variant.

 

Similar thought processes on a much reduced scale go into our coach designs, and funnily enough I was in a meeting this morning discussing requirements and design changes relating to the next carriage. A LNWR coach designed in 1908 and a non-corridor coach designed in 1916 do not a first glance look anything like a 1919 Toplight coach, but doors, ends, floors and many other parts are the same making the next CAD drawing speedier and less expensive to produce.

Edited July 29, 2014 by coachmann

[JSpencer]

Surely the 'not hard' way is to copy Hornby's approach to 4-6-2's, i.e. a flangeless rear axle with an option for a flanged one as user curves permit?

 

Not saying that's what I'd like to see, but if Bachmann really want to minimise development time/effort.....

 

Cheers

Adrian

Bachmann already faced this challenge on the much and larger wheel base of their A1 Peppercorn and the they succeeded without using a pony or a flangeless wheel (unlike Hornby - sorry Hornby).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Bachmann already faced this challenge on the much and larger wheel base of their A1 Peppercorn and the they succeeded without using a pony or a flangeless wheel...

Quite so, it's a better compromise in my book. Shallow (underscale) representation of the outside axleboxes on the Cartazzi truck frames is the price, as compared to Hornby's full depth representation with a flangeless wheelset.

 

But that isn't really required on the Atlantics, GNR or LBSCR. The wheel base is 6'3" (bogie) + 5'3"+ 6'10" + 8'.  Very similar to a medium sized 4-6-0 like a Castle, which goes around second radius curves in all flanged RTR OO model form, and has very little sideplay on the leading and trailing coupled axles in Hornby's present model.

[Dunsignalling]

Quite so, it's a better compromise in my book. Shallow (underscale) representation of the outside axleboxes on the Cartazzi truck frames is the price, as compared to Hornby's full depth representation with a flangeless wheelset.

 

But that isn't really required on the Atlantics, GNR or LBSCR. The wheel base is 6'3" (bogie) + 5'3"+ 6'10" + 8'.  Very similar to a medium sized 4-6-0 like a Castle, which goes around second radius curves in all flanged RTR OO model form, and has very little sideplay on the leading and trailing coupled axles in Hornby's present model.

You'll really get up some GWR noses, calling a Castle 'medium sized'   

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

You'll really get up some GWR noses, calling a Castle 'medium sized'   

 

John

Medium size is quite acceptable - 'high powered' of course should be added to the description in order to ensure accuracy.

[Black 5 Bear]

Just received notification from Hattons this morning, that the H2 Atlantic Class, Beachy Head in early BR black has now risen in price to £152.96.

Bit of a difference from the pre-order price quoted of £89.95, which to be fair was wildly below expectation and wishful thinking. 

[JSpencer]

Just received notification from Hattons this morning, that the H2 Atlantic Class, Beachy Head in early BR black has now risen in price to £152.96.

Bit of a difference from the pre-order price quoted of £89.95, which to be fair was wildly below expectation and wishful thinking. 

 

Bachmann still have TBA on their website. So either retailers have now been quoted a price or this is another guesstimate by Hattons.

 

The NRM C1 is probably a good benchmark of how much it may cost.