Where are the Hornby models?

[Ozexpatriate]

I would not mind paying an extra tenner for a loco if the quality was the same if it was made in Great Britain.

How about an extra hundred?

[Mike70]

How about an extra hundred?

What is this based on?

[The Black Hat]

What does it matter? Hornby annouced the Duke and P2. Most would want just one model of those, rather than select a class that people would by more than one of... like the K1, which they have a lot of parts and tooling made for already. What with other annoucements from other companies Hornby even could be accused of selecting the wrong ones to go for compared with the selection of others.

 

Bachmann are making what people want to have made. Hornby need to annouce a K1 and S15 next year (models people would buy more than one of)... plus get some decent reliveries of those good diesels that they make, class 56 (DCR, Colas), 31 (BARS green, CE Dutch with headcode box), 60 in Transrail, 67 in EWS Silver, etc and then deliver on time, on budget. Those would sell and generate the cashflow Hornby want.

[Ozexpatriate]

How about an extra hundred?

What is this based on?

Anyone who thinks that manufacturing in Britain rather than China will add only £10 (less than 10% at today's prices) to the retail price of a model locomotive is kidding themselves.

 

Whether it is an extra £100 or more, i can't authoritatively say, but it's not an extra tenner.

 

There was some excellent data shared here on the price impact of moving from China to North America on the President of Rapido Trains blog. I'll look it up for you if I can find it. 

 

EDIT: Here it is. Please feel free to do the maths with some real hard data. Yes, Rapido's Budd "Park" Series dome-observation car is a high-end coach. For comparison, it is at least as well detailed as a lit-Hornby Pullman. Rapido's coaches retail for about US$85.00 which is pretty close to the £49.99 asking price for Hornby's latest Pullmans.  The President of Rapido estimated that his coach manufactured in North America would retail in the CAN$400 - 500 range.

[valeofyork]

Just sometimes (not all the time!) it can get a bit I want my toys now! about all this sortta stuff, and its not the best way to live one's life is it?

 

Yes, true to some extent but a lot of it is down to Hornby announcing a release date, then when it gets close it moves on a few months, then the same happens again, and again, and you get to a situation where some things are now over a year late and have still not appeared. However you look at it, that's not good business practice.

[Ian Hargrave]

Communication is king in the 21st century...and instant,in cyberspace terms.The unspoken agenda,at least in Hornby's case,it seems,is that there is only a tenuous link between Margate and China...and that this situation exists in perpetuity further along the chain 'twixt  Margate,retailer and prospective purchaser. Is this an inbred company culture ? We may fulminate as much as we can.....but nothing changes,does it?

[andytrains]

The whole point is it needs to change.

[Dunsignalling]

The whole point is it needs to change.

But the big question is, are Hornby capable of changing it ?

[90rob]

I think it would be a nice gesture if Hornby were to announce that anyone taking their 2013 catalogue into a retailer around Christmas time could have the 2014 catalogue for £1 - to cover printing costs. Alternatively they could issue a free 2014 sticker to cover the date on the 2013 catalogue....

[andyman7]

What does it matter? Hornby annouced the Duke and P2. Most would want just one model of those, rather than select a class that people would by more than one of... like the K1, which they have a lot of parts and tooling made for already. What with other annoucements from other companies Hornby even could be accused of selecting the wrong ones to go for compared with the selection of others.

 

Bachmann are making what people want to have made. Hornby need to annouce a K1 and S15 next year (models people would buy more than one of)... plus get some decent reliveries of those good diesels that they make, class 56 (DCR, Colas), 31 (BARS green, CE Dutch with headcode box), 60 in Transrail, 67 in EWS Silver, etc and then deliver on time, on budget. Those would sell and generate the cashflow Hornby want.

It's what you want, but why do you, I or anyone sitting at home 'know' what 'everyone' wants? If you are a model railway enthusiast building a scale layout you are right that a K1 or S15 makes more sense. But if you are a regular guy browsing in Hamleys with £80 to buy an engine, I bet you'll go for a P2 or Duke of Gloucester. Now if there are 1000 of the former and 10,000 of the latter, making a P2 isn't so daft is it?

Bachmann are more focussed on the enthusiasts market, Hornby still target the High Street. I don't see any Bachmann sets in Argos or Toys'R'Us. I somehow don't see the next general election being fought on the lack of an R-T-R K1, and to suggest that Hornby's woes would be satisfied by them going head-to-head with Bachmann doesn't necessarily make sense for them. In the 'glory years' pre 2011 on at least two occasions both manufacturers made identical super detail models (and before anyone suggests it, please remember that it is illegal for manufacturers to discuss product plans to avoid duplication) - I don't suppose that was particularly satisfactory for either of them.

BTW, for the record, as a 'modeller' of 70s era BR blue I don't want a K1 or an S15 - but I very much doubt I will be able to resist a Duke of Gloucester and a P2 for the cabinet. 

[The Stationmaster]

According to a brief chat with Simon Kohler today at Swindon part of the problem is due to Hornby's new manufacturers getting into the way of doing things.  So they are producing small batches as what almost seem like test pieces and these are then going through quality assessment by Hornby's people in China and have a rejection rate so not everything made (in small batches) is getting through in any case hence supplies in dribs & drabs for those things which are arriving (I was asking about the GW tank engines).

 

The 'Stars' (as I will report in the relevant thread) failed the 'drop test' (familiar story) and the packaging is having to be redesigned/altered in order to get them through it - no firm date for arrival and that shown on Hornby's trade pages is a sort of current best estimate if all goes well.

[valeofyork]

According to a brief chat with Simon Kohler today at Swindon part of the problem is due to Hornby's new manufacturers getting into the way of doing things.  So they are producing small batches as what almost seem like test pieces and these are then going through quality assessment by Hornby's people in China and have a rejection rate so not everything made (in small batches) is getting through in any case hence supplies in dribs & drabs for those things which are arriving (I was asking about the GW tank engines).

 

The 'Stars' (as I will report in the relevant thread) failed the 'drop test' (familiar story) and the packaging is having to be redesigned/altered in order to get them through it - no firm date for arrival and that shown on Hornby's trade pages is a sort of current best estimate if all goes well.

 

They can come up with all the excuses under the sun, but given that they've been coming up with similar excuses for several years it's wearing a bit thin!

[The Stationmaster]

They can come up with all the excuses under the sun, but given that they've been coming up with similar excuses for several years it's wearing a bit thin!

They might of course be reasons, not excuses.  What can, I think, be fairly said is that clearly manufacturing in China is not as easy as it once was although it is still, presumably, cost effective and delivering acceptable overall quality but not offering timely delivery as is the case for not only Hornby but other manufacturers too.

 

Edit to correct typo

[The Black Hat]

It's what you want, but why do you, I or anyone sitting at home 'know' what 'everyone' wants? If you are a model railway enthusiast building a scale layout you are right that a K1 or S15 makes more sense. But if you are a regular guy browsing in Hamleys with £80 to buy an engine, I bet you'll go for a P2 or Duke of Gloucester. Now if there are 1000 of the former and 10,000 of the latter, making a P2 isn't so daft is it?

Bachmann are more focussed on the enthusiasts market, Hornby still target the High Street. I don't see any Bachmann sets in Argos or Toys'R'Us. I somehow don't see the next general election being fought on the lack of an R-T-R K1, and to suggest that Hornby's woes would be satisfied by them going head-to-head with Bachmann doesn't necessarily make sense for them. In the 'glory years' pre 2011 on at least two occasions both manufacturers made identical super detail models (and before anyone suggests it, please remember that it is illegal for manufacturers to discuss product plans to avoid duplication) - I don't suppose that was particularly satisfactory for either of them.

BTW, for the record, as a 'modeller' of 70s era BR blue I don't want a K1 or an S15 - but I very much doubt I will be able to resist a Duke of Gloucester and a P2 for the cabinet. 

 

Yes its true that Hornby go and select the companies where they are selling their train sets for children and compared with Bachmann Hornby have a strong brand and are well known for it by the general public. Offered the choice for a class 66 for someone that knows nothing between Hornby and Bachmann and they would immediately be drawn to trusting the red box.

 

That however, really isnt the issue. Hornby have already sent out profit margin warnings and the company is needing cashflow. Having train sets to sell at Christmas means they need to be manufactured and ready for sale in December, not missing the production deadline and being ready for Easter. The kids will get something different for christmas if that set wasnt available for sale. The same is for other models to be released to the collector and modeller sectors of the market. With engines delayed the company isnt generating sales and thus doesnt get the income it needs. Half of the reason why the Western tanks flew off the shelves will be people were waiting so long to get one and didnt want to miss out.

 

Hornby dont need to go head to head in the production stakes. I was not suggesting that they should either. Hornby are capable of making some brilliant models to rival those from Bachmann, although the latter are prefered by modellers by making the workhorses and balanced locomotive fleet that we all want to model a scene realistically. Bachmann also price their engines competatively and model engines that are working, minus the gimics. Hence Id rather Bachmann annouced by beloved Q6...

 

The main difference between the two companies are the engines they select to model. Here, this year Hornby have gone for an engine that there is only one of, being the Duke and the other the P2 has limited possibilites in a small class. Fact is most will want the lead engine Cock-of the-North. These have been popular on wish lists and would appeal to many modellers and colectors out there. However, despite the fact that most new releases make the most profit in their initial releases these two have a significant likelihood of not generating many repeat sales afterwards, unless the initial batch was so popular it sells out. Id like to think that does happen for Hornby. Yet, a safer option would have been to pick engines that modellers would buy more than one of. The K1, and S15 are examples of this for the steam front. Both covered a wide area on their region, both appeal to many interested in the scene and both are around in preservation too. These would generate repeat sales both at initial launch and then subsequently afterwards, thus being better for sales and giving the chance for an engine like the Duke or the P2 to come when sales to the market is easier.

 

With regard to diesels, Hornby make some selections which question their overall knowledge of the currect traction scene and their understanding of those modelling the present day. Hornby still have not done all the initial trainload liveries for a class 60, nor released on in standard big T transrail, some of the most popular liveries going. Hornby also released a Fragonset class 31 with the headlight positoned in a way only 31452 could be modeled, these went around in pairs so everyone would have wanted two to do it and renumber one. Again, thats a sale missed out on. There has been no civil engineers Dutch 31 with a headcode box, again they ran in pairs, theres just been the skinhead released, which there were fewer. The current scene has liveries changing all the time but Hornby never capitalise on them. As a result by the time Hornby release a model, the livery has been replaced or even the franchise moved on. You can bet a DCR Green 56 being made, only for the company this week to annouce a new livery. Instead a Trainload class 56 in coal has been made so many times Ive lost count, but that run could have featured a Colas 56, or DCR grey or green. These would sell like hot cakes for modern image modellers wanting something different. Its not all doom and gloom, the attempt to add the detail and lights for the Network Rail 31 is something Hornby should be really applauded for and those details really did show attention and accuracy from Margate.

 

That profit warning comes as models are not there to buy, but life would be easier for Hornby if they worked out which models they make that have examples modellers really want, and want more than one of.

[The Stationmaster]

Is that a very long way of saying that Hornby should introduce a 16xx Pannier tank to take advantage of the growing interest in china clay lines?

Cos that strikes me as a very good idea if they take it up

I wonder if you don't know him Mickey - it would have to be a J something or other for David (and preferably one that ran on the GWR for other folk of course ).

[The Black Hat]

I wonder if you don't know him Mickey - it would have to be a J something or other for David (and preferably one that ran on the GWR for other folk of course ).

 

A nice Q6, J21, B16, and J27 in that order from the blue team, but I'm after the K1 from Hornby. That said, I quite like that Western region 15xx but shhh...  cant let others find that out.

[Sasquatch]

Hornby can stack toy shops from floor to ceiling with train sets for Christmas if they want but they're not going to sell, they never do.It's not 1977, kids want the latest high tech gadget. Hornby should be more concerned with existing customers.

They might do better if they where British made and I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If Dapol can do it, so can anyone else!!

Dapol engines come in real boxes for a start, they're on the shelves and they don't cost 100s more either!!! Dapol wagons are actually cheaper.

 

It was a bad day for British jobs when Hornby moved production over seas and now it seems it's not working out. It's always a bad sign when a company puts a new man in charge.

Lets all keep our fingers crossed that they pull through.

 

Sasquatch. I don't want excuses or reasons, I'd just like to be able to buy Hornby trains the way I used to!!!!!

Oh and; J15,J15,J15.

 

Edited with extra content.

[Xerces Fobe2]

The key issue is Hornby needs products to sell to keep the company viable. An extended period of low output (for whatever reason) damages a companies finances and if not successfully addressed there is only one outcome !I really hope that Hornby get back on track in the near future.

 

More 2 BIL variations I am sure would be good sellers as I this is one of the best models fom Hornby for quite a long time. I have a 5 BEL too however IMO the 2 BIL is far better overall model.

[micklner]

         The P2 is not a one off engine.

         It would appear from the recent photo (see P2 thread) that the body can be adapted due to a seperate nose section as on A1's and A3's bodies to produce at least four others of the class in Bugatti Nose form and Earl Marischal in two versions plus the Streamlined version of Cock o the North itself so that makes at least 8 versions.

         Only one of the P2's would need a need a totally new body due to a different boiler. The chassis just needs new valve gear and the Tender is the same on all of them . So a good choice I am sure many BR people will want the Duke as well.

 

         Just need to get them made

[The Stationmaster]

Hornby can stack toy shops from floor to ceiling with train sets for Christmas if they want but they're not going to sell, they never do.It's not 1977, kids want the latest high tech gadget. Hornby should be more concerned with existing customers.

They might do better if they where British made and I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If Dapol can do it, so can anyone else!!

Dapol engines come in real boxes for a start, they're on the shelves and they don't cost 100s more either!!! Dapol wagons are actually cheaper.

 

It was a bad day for British jobs when Hornby moved production over seas and now it seems it's not working out. It's always a bad sign when a company puts a new man in charge.

Lets all keep our fingers crossed that they pull through.

 

Sasquatch. I don't want excuses or reasons, I'd just like to be able to buy Hornby trains the way I used to!!!!!

Oh and; J15,J15,J15.

 

Edited with extra content.

Dapol engines do indeed 'not cost hundreds more' - which in a way isn't surprising as they're made in China - just like Hornby engines, just like Bachmann engines, just like some (at least) of the content in Heljan engines.  In fact it would be interesting to know who, among UK outline 'mainstream' r-t-r 'manufacturers' doesn't buy-in from China?

[stewartingram]

Don't forget the pricing.

In the old days, a loco would go through the R&D stage, and those costs would be apportioned over a long production run, so it could have been a number of years before the investment in R&D would have been recouped. This is normal practice; the company just decides how long to spread the cost; a longer term means retail (in reality from Hornby, actually trade) price can be set lower.

I am certain that nowadays, with the market having changed, they are finding that maximum sales occur with a new release before tapering off. So this R&D is factored in over a much shorter timescale, meaning a sell-out (trade wise to the retail shops don't forget) of a new item recoups all of that R&D cost. Hence the trade price is higher than say a Bachmann equivalent item; this in turn leads to a proportionally higher retail price as well.

Any later re-runs or reliveries are probably beyond recouping the original R&D development cost. However, any modification to detail of the loco, and relivery, will have a (smaller) R&D cost to be factored in.

So to sum up, something like the 2-BIL probably made a lot of profit for Hornby, bringing in much needed cash flow in a short time. However longer term the company needs to get more regular supplies shipped over to keep the income flowing. Otherwise Mr.Banker is not going to support Mr.Hornby.....

 

Stewart

[valeofyork]

There's also the fact that Hornby often don't release in sets - e.g. HST power cars will sell better if the matching carriages are also available, but often they aren't.

 

And on that subject, the existing Mark3 tooling is crap and this really shows up against the current power cars (which are excellent). Why not look at re-tooling the Mk3? Sales are pretty much guaranteed to be good, given that HST sets need lots of them and it's a popular train. They could also then model the variations - e.g. the different roof details on the loco-hauled variants. Unfortunately, they don't even seem to realise that the differences are there: with the HST in the current XC livery, they modelled set XC01 which consists mostly of loco-hauled conversions, meaning that all but one of the coaches have incorrect roof detail. If they'd modelled XC04 or XC05 the roof detail would only have been incorrect on the TCC (which they didn't, for some unclear reason, bother to make anyway so it isn't possible to create a full set without modifying a TF).

[valeofyork]

They might of course be reasons, not excuses.  What can, I think, be fairly said is that clearly manufacturing in China is not as easy as it once was although it is still, presumably, cost effective and delivering acceptable overall quality but not offering timely delivery as is the case for not only Hornby but other manufacturers too.

 

Edit to correct typo

 

Excuses or reasons - who cares? It makes no difference to the end result. However it's described, they need to do something about it!

['CHARD]

There's also the fact that Hornby often don't release in sets - e.g. HST power cars will sell better if the matching carriages are also available, but often they aren't.

 

And on that subject, the existing Mark3 tooling is crap and this really shows up against the current power cars (which are excellent). Why not look at re-tooling the Mk3? Sales are pretty much guaranteed to be good, given that HST sets need lots of them and it's a popular train. They could also then model the variations - e.g. the different roof details on the loco-hauled variants. Unfortunately, they don't even seem to realise that the differences are there: with the HST in the current XC livery, they modelled set XC01 which consists mostly of loco-hauled conversions, meaning that all but one of the coaches have incorrect roof detail. If they'd modelled XC04 or XC05 the roof detail would only have been incorrect on the TCC (which they didn't, for some unclear reason, bother to make anyway so it isn't possible to create a full set without modifying a TF).

 

Why not look at re-tooling the MkIII?  They may have, have you asked them?  It may not make economic sense, as they can shift versions of the existing MkIIIs perfectly easily, they just don't release all the variants completists require.

 

Hornby, whose product range and pricing strategies have been puzzling to say the least, possibly still see the Hamleys and high streets as their main shop window, and their web site seems to be pitched about there.  This market comprises thousands of casual 'normal' buyers, many being well-intended aunts and grandads, who don't care in the slightest if the roof details are correct. 

 

As for people on here - why not support the aftermarket and buy a few etches, do a bit of modelling to secure that last 3% of accuracy on the MkIIIs.

[valeofyork]

Why not look at re-tooling the MkIII?  They may have, have you asked them?  It may not make economic sense, as they can shift versions of the existing MkIIIs perfectly easily, they just don't release all the variants completists require.

 

Hornby, whose product range and pricing strategies have been puzzling to say the least, possibly still see the Hamleys and high streets as their main shop window, and their web site seems to be pitched about there.  This market comprises thousands of casual 'normal' buyers, many being well-intended aunts and grandads, who don't care in the slightest if the roof details are correct. 

 

As for people on here - why not support the aftermarket and buy a few etches, do a bit of modelling to secure that last 3% of accuracy on the MkIIIs.

 

They can sell the existing Mk3s because they are the only ones available - if they replaced them a lot of people interested in accuracy would probably replace all of theirs, and that's potentially a lot of sales. The existing one could be retired to the Railroad range.

 

It just seems strange to have done half the job - remodelled the power cars, but not the trailers.