Where are the Hornby models?

[45059]

With regards to the mk3 surely this warrants a re-tool. Hornby's steam era coaches are superb, but I guess their main target group for these are those people who remember steam, who therefore generally will be older and therefore be perceived to have more spare cash. I know that this is a cynical point of view, but I feel Hornby's strategy has been to make nice, expensive models for the older generations who can afford them- with a bias towards steam, and train sets for the children.

 However. As has been mentioned, the HST power cars are first rate, yet let down by what should be Railroad range coaches. I find Hornby's decision making baffling, as if they were to get right with a new mk3, it could be like a licence to print money. The mk3 has been around for almost forty years now, wearing more liveries that you could shake a stick at.. So it wouldn't just appeal to the (relatively) younger generations in our 20s/30s/40s.

I feel that Hornby need to pull their finger out with this one, otherwise once Bachmann has released their aircon mk2 who knows what coaches they may look to make after that?

[Ian Hargrave]

According to a brief chat with Simon Kohler today at Swindon part of the problem is due to Hornby's new manufacturers getting into the way of doing things.  So they are producing small batches as what almost seem like test pieces and these are then going through quality assessment by Hornby's people in China and have a rejection rate so not everything made (in small batches) is getting through in any case hence supplies in dribs & drabs for those things which are arriving (I was asking about the GW tank engines).

 

The 'Stars' (as I will report in the relevant thread) failed the 'drop test' (familiar story) and the packaging is having to be redesigned/altered in order to get them through it - no firm date for arrival and that shown on Hornby's trade pages is a sort of current best estimate if all goes well.

At least,Mike,you gleaned SOME information and your posting is useful to us all....BUT...this is down to YOU and not Simon Kohler.You are doing his job for him (thank heavens someone is ).A culture of openness and transparency would bring a much-needed breath of fresh air into this long-running and frankly farcical saga and would surely win back a now-tarnished reputation.Come on,Hornby,how about a decent newsletter every month ,instead of the sickly 'Toytown Times' that graces our screens regularly and tells us......nothing ?

['CHARD]

Good job I'm on the wagon mate, if I was to post on some threads after a couple of hours in there, Landlord York would be giving me my ticket sharpish 

['CHARD]

I agree by the way the MkIII requires a definitive upgraded model. Fortunately I don't need any as I have no use whatsoever for them.

 

Because if they were released now as a full spec new tooling, they would be retailing, conservatively, at between £38 and £52 (based on a quick Google-shop for Thompsons), rather than the £24 - £30 they are presently (based on a quick Google-shop for new Hornby single MkIIIs).

 

Seems to me that even the minority of serious modellers who compile complete HST rakes might baulk at replacing obsolete sets at £300-400 a pop.  And that wouldn't grab the red team any quick sales, or a return on their investment.

[45059]

I agree by the way the MkIII requires a definitive upgraded model. Fortunately I don't need any as I have no use whatsoever for them.

 

Because if they were released now as a full spec new tooling, they would be retailing, conservatively, at between £38 and £52 (based on a quick Google-shop for Thompsons), rather than the £24 - £30 they are presently (based on a quick Google-shop for new Hornby single MkIIIs).

 

Seems to me that even the minority of serious modellers who compile complete HST rakes might baulk at replacing obsolete sets at £300-400 a pop.  And that wouldn't grab the red team any quick sales, or a return on their investment.

Perhaps not for some of the more obscure liveries, but I still maintain even at the prices you quote, blue/grey and Intercity would put Hornby onto a winner.

[stewartingram]

I agree by the way the MkIII requires a definitive upgraded model. Fortunately I don't need any as I have no use whatsoever for them.

 

Because if they were released now as a full spec new tooling, they would be retailing, conservatively, at between £38 and £52 (based on a quick Google-shop for Thompsons), rather than the £24 - £30 they are presently (based on a quick Google-shop for new Hornby single MkIIIs).

 

Seems to me that even the minority of serious modellers who compile complete HST rakes might baulk at replacing obsolete sets at £300-400 a pop.  And that wouldn't grab the red team any quick sales, or a return on their investment.

 

And if you refer to my post about prices (just up the thread): The R&D costs on the existing coaches have been paid for. They still sell, which means easy bucks for little cost/effort in putting some on the market. To retool would bring a high investment cost for what? Realistically, for a diminished return per item sold. Is that good business sense, when you have limited cashflow at the present time?

 

And before anyone asks, I don't know the state of Hornby's bank account! Just applying a little logic. They have made substantial investment already in a fair number of items, some of which still have to make a profit for them. Wilth little product being shipped over, they haven't exactly got a good cashflow situation at the moment, even if they have good reserves.

 

If you are living on your wages, not rich but managing, and your firm puts you on part time hours due to lack of orders, your wages plummet. Do you go to Mr.Banker for a loan for a new car/ipod/whatever when your income is halved?

 

 

Stewart

[Removed a/c]

There's also the fact that Hornby often don't release in sets - e.g. HST power cars will sell better if the matching carriages are also available, but often they aren't.

 

And on that subject, the existing Mark3 tooling is crap and this really shows up against the current power cars (which are excellent). Why not look at re-tooling the Mk3? Sales are pretty much guaranteed to be good, given that HST sets need lots of them and it's a popular train. They could also then model the variations - e.g. the different roof details on the loco-hauled variants. Unfortunately, they don't even seem to realise that the differences are there: with the HST in the current XC livery, they modelled set XC01 which consists mostly of loco-hauled conversions, meaning that all but one of the coaches have incorrect roof detail. If they'd modelled XC04 or XC05 the roof detail would only have been incorrect on the TCC (which they didn't, for some unclear reason, bother to make anyway so it isn't possible to create a full set without modifying a TF).

I have been waiting over a year now for the Blue/Grey HST. I have managed to get 4 SOs and 2 FOs. The powers cars are supposed to arrive soon. I cancelled my preorder as I just got fedup waiting, I also think the price it a little steep for an engine and a dummy. We still have no indication when we are going to see the TGS or the buffet MK3s. 

They cancelled production of some items as there weren't enough preorders. Who is going to preorder when you can't even get a rough estimate of release dates? How can you budget ? 

[valeofyork]

I agree by the way the MkIII requires a definitive upgraded model. Fortunately I don't need any as I have no use whatsoever for them.

 

Because if they were released now as a full spec new tooling, they would be retailing, conservatively, at between £38 and £52 (based on a quick Google-shop for Thompsons), rather than the £24 - £30 they are presently (based on a quick Google-shop for new Hornby single MkIIIs).

 

Seems to me that even the minority of serious modellers who compile complete HST rakes might baulk at replacing obsolete sets at £300-400 a pop.  And that wouldn't grab the red team any quick sales, or a return on their investment.

 

I doubt if they'd be that expensive - Mk3s don't have a lot of external detailing compared to earlier carriages (e.g. underframe is effectively one piece), so shouldn't be as expensive to tool and manufacture.

[45059]

I agree that Hornby would seem to be having financial issues at the moment. But the HSTs were released in the 'good times' of the last decade and surely that would have been the time to invest in new coaching stock to go with the power cars instead of continuing to pass off the current vehicles which are past their best.

It seems to me at least, that this is precisely the kind of non joined-up thinking that has got Hornby into some, (not all) of its current troubles.

I have got fed up of waiting for some of the locos in the liveries that I thought that Hornby would have produced by now. So they won't be selling me the likes of a large logo 56 or Intercity Mainline class 31. I know that I am but a drop in the ocean, but that's a couple more sales that they have lost.

[Ceptic]

Time for a gripe (or, it could be a grape, as there's a bunch of'em).

 

 Hatton's notifications regarding R3162A. The second run / delivery of BR 2-BIL (Not NRM)

 

Message received 21st. May....Delivery expected on, or after 10th. June.

 

Update message 31st. May..........."............."..........",...".....".....22nd, July.

 

Update message 5th. July............."............."..........",...".....".....19th. August.

 

Update message 25th. July..........."............."..........",..."....."......2nd. September.

 

Update message 8th. August........"............."..........",...".....".....10th. September.

 

Update message 12th. Sept.........."............."..........",...".....".....11th. November 2013(?).........Ad nauseam 

 

Many thanks must go to Hattons, for keeping their customers informed.

 

Can't say the same for Hornby tho'.

[7013]

On a slightly more positive note. Friend bought his newly purchased 7229 in black in to the club today. Not a problem/ blemish on it, nothing needed repairing and it pulled 43 loaded wagons with minimal wheel slip, a little extra weight and it would have no problems. As for looks it really looks the part in black and I for the life of me do not see any problem with the smoke box dart, perhaps it shows less in black. It goes to show that when Hornby get it right they can produce superb locos. Here's hoping!

[Torn-on-the-platform]

This issue has been VERY visible at exhibitions for at least a couple of years now. When Hornby get it right, the stock sells almost immediately, with many outlets selling out before they even receive the model. The LNER suburban brake coaches, SR luggage van Bs and the white roof Pullman observation car have been good examples of this as all have proved quite difficult to get hold of. The result is that dealers at shows have pretty limited ranges of Hornby products on their tables. You'll see plenty of Railroad, DDC sound diesels, train packs, over priced Royal Mail special editions and Railfreight grey 56s, but it would be difficult to pick up last month's new release. There will usually however be a healthy range of the other competitor's stock available.

 

They do seem to be getting away with it though, whilst we have grumbled about Hornby, we still snap up the new releases before the retailers can even put them on their shelves. The GWR tanks are a prime example of this as, despite all the criticism regarding design and build quality, they are still pretty difficult to get hold of, particularly at a good price.

 

I think they are missing a trick by not having their work-a-day locomotives such as Black 5s, Q1s, class 31s and 8Fs available in a steady stream. Instead, looking at their website, all that is available currently are poorly selling rare-liveried DMUs and Railroad items. There are only 8 products available to buy if you click on 'locomotives' and one of them is the catalogue. This is embarrassing surely?

[7013]

The 72xx was bought at 'Steam' yesterday, ironically two examples remained on the stall all day until my friend purchased his just before leaving the show.

[The Stationmaster]

Time for a gripe (or, it could be a grape, as there's a bunch of'em).

 

 Hatton's notifications regarding R3162A. The second run / delivery of BR 2-BIL (Not NRM)

 

Message received 21st. May....Delivery expected on, or after 10th. June.

 

Update message 31st. May..........."............."..........",...".....".....22nd, July.

 

Update message 5th. July............."............."..........",...".....".....19th. August.

 

Update message 25th. July..........."............."..........",..."....."......2nd. September.

 

Update message 8th. August........"............."..........",...".....".....10th. September.

 

Update message 12th. Sept.........."............."..........",...".....".....11th. November 2013(?).........Ad nauseam 

 

Many thanks must go to Hattons, for keeping their customers informed.

 

Can't say the same for Hornby tho'.

But have they?  I know for a fact (from another retailer) that one date quoted by Hattons for a particular Hornby item is completely different from the date quoted by Hornby on their trade website!

 

 

 

At least,Mike,you gleaned SOME information and your posting is useful to us all....BUT...this is down to YOU and not Simon Kohler.You are doing his job for him (thank heavens someone is ).A culture of openness and transparency would bring a much-needed breath of fresh air into this long-running and frankly farcical saga and would surely win back a now-tarnished reputation.Come on,Hornby,how about a decent newsletter every month ,instead of the sickly 'Toytown Times' that graces our screens regularly and tells us......nothing ?

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly  on that Ian - saying nothing when you've nothing to say can sometimes be effective but when it gives way to rumour and lack of customer confidence it really needs to be tackled.  Ideally hard information about what is actually heading towards Margate from China ought not to be difficult to advise to us - if Charlie Petty and Kernow can give us the names of ships carrying stuff they are expecting I fail to see why a larger concern can't manage the same.  At least Bachmann give us, the end customer, an idea of what is coming (ok so sometimes it goes wrong - but they tried) and Hornby must have some idea as they put the information on their trade website (although again it can - so I'm told - be a very mobile target with dates frequently altered so maybe they don't have enough confidence to make that information public?).  

 

But doing nothing or, more accurately very little beyond oddments on Farcebook, doesn't in my view represent a good modern level of customer communication.  I can see a potential problem - which might put them off - from some of the reaction in this thread, where unwelcome information could result in brickbats - but a simple monthly newsletter via their public website could do quite a good job.  Perhaps they are worried that repeated news of delays will put-off customers or get the company a bad name/image but I hardly think it could get any worse than the way many are already talking about them and SK did mention yesterday the fact that some things can't be said because of commercial confidences.   But some things could be explained to us - for instance the apparently peculiar situation of failing to meet pre-orders and 'rationing' of product could clearly do with wider explanation from Hornby, especially when an item appears on general sale from one retailer while another has still not had his pre-orders met.

 

Another oddity is the whole issue of 'Hornby bashing' which seems rather illogical to me when in reality they're not much worse for production delays or long drawn out product arrival times than anybody else.  I might 'bash' them for some things regarding design and quality but equally I have found that if you email SK in a polite and hopefully constructive manner you get a polite, informative, and constructive reply.  It seems that politeness might - as is so often the case - breed reciprocal politeness and information. 

[phil gollin]

.

 

The important thing is that Hornby get a good supply of suitable products into the shops in time for Christmas  -  THE most important sales time of the year.

 

It is noticeable that the Christmas books are starting to appear in Book shops (the big deliveries tend to be in October).

 

What model shops need are things to sell to kids/parents.

 

. 

[7013]

I agree with Mike, bashing Hornby achieves little or nothing,. Whenever I have engaged with Simon Kohler be it by mail or at a show he always comes over as sincere and passionate about the hobby. It must be a great source of frustration for him.

Although it is by no means a right for the buying public to be informed as to what is happening at Hornby, by not having some sort of updates even if it is negative news it creates mistrust. The rumour mill gets into full swing and people's frustrations manifest in negative postings on sites like this.

For positive customer relations a regular meaningful update from Hornby would help us understand what problems they are facing, and it would probably mean a more positive attitude from modellers.

[tetsudofan]

......somewhere over the rainbow......

 

Keith

[Xerces Fobe2]

We have got to cut Hornby some slack as the previous management made some poor decisions so let's give the new guy time to turn things around!

 

 

Nigel

[Ian Hargrave]

I agree with Mike, bashing Hornby achieves little or nothing,. Whenever I have engaged with Simon Kohler be it by mail or at a show he always comes over as sincere and passionate about the hobby. It must be a great source of frustration for him.

Although it is by no means a right for the buying public to be informed as to what is happening at Hornby, by not having some sort of updates even if it is negative news it creates mistrust. The rumour mill gets into full swing and people's frustrations manifest in negative postings on sites like this.

For positive customer relations a regular meaningful update from Hornby would help us understand what problems they are facing, and it would probably mean a more positive attitude from modellers.

That is exactly the point I am making.....post 57 ( above )

[45059]

We have got to cut Hornby some slack as the previous management made some poor decisions so let's give the new guy time to turn things around!

 

 

Nigel

I do agree. But I can't help feeling frustrated with the whole Hornby situation- I hope that they are able to turn things around with some better decision making and resolve their supply issues.

Hornby are often seen as the 'face' of the hobby to newcomers, and if we were to loose them it would be much to the detriment of the hobby as a whole.

One thing is for certain, something positive needs to happen. And sooner rather than later.

[aaron14xx]

Lets all hope Hornby get through this rough patch and ship out their models for all to enjoy.

 

After all, then I get my 14xx!

 

Iv'e only waited 9 months for it...

 

(Added sad face)

[frobisher]

valeofyork, on 15 Sept 2013 - 15:31, said:

I doubt if they'd be that expensive - Mk3s don't have a lot of external detailing compared to earlier carriages (e.g. underframe is effectively one piece), so shouldn't be as expensive to tool and manufacture.

To do the job right probably as much effort as the Gresleys. The assembly costs will be lower (underframe as you say), but even when you only have one body shell for 2/3 of the coach types, you have the roof and end variations and that's before you get to the seating variations... There's at least three bogie variants, and then there's the catering vehicles...

[brushman47544]

According to a brief chat with Simon Kohler today at Swindon part of the problem is due to Hornby's new manufacturers getting into the way of doing things.  So they are producing small batches as what almost seem like test pieces and these are then going through quality assessment by Hornby's people in China and have a rejection rate so not everything made (in small batches) is getting through in any case hence supplies in dribs & drabs for those things which are arriving (I was asking about the GW tank engines).

 

The 'Stars' (as I will report in the relevant thread) failed the 'drop test' (familiar story) and the packaging is having to be redesigned/altered in order to get them through it - no firm date for arrival and that shown on Hornby's trade pages is a sort of current best estimate if all goes well.

 

Whilst I wouldn't dispute the logic of smaller batches, I am a bemused by the reasons for doing so. Surely the final pre-production version of a model is tested for build quality etc. before Hornby gives the go ahead for the full production run. If so, why should their suddenly be lots of problems and a high rejection rate when the factory has already made a model that has been signed off for production? And why are they only doing packaging drop tests on the production models? Surely the final pre-pro models can be used to save time (and risk binning broken models from the production run that would otherwise be sold).

 

I can understand there may be problems if the tooling for existing models has been transferred to another factory, but is that actually the case? Hornby models are still coming from the Sanda Kan factory as reported by Pat Hammond in a recent MREMag. And there are plenty of new models that clearly have passed all the tests - e.g. the 2-BIL, "unconverted" Maunsell 3rd - where some versions have arrived but others not. Why hasn't the factory made the rest?

 

The answer has to be the allocation of production slots. I'm sure I've read that Chinese factories are finding it more difficult to retain skilled workers, but what I don't understand is why when those factories have customers (i.e Hornby etc) they seem unable or unwilling to recruit sufficient staff. If that means paying higher wages, then from a business perspective isn't that a factor they have to accept or risk going out of business because those same customers go elsewhere? Or do they know they can get away with it because they know the alternatives for the likes of Hornby or very limited at the price point Hornby has contracted to pay.

 

Whatever, Hornby is unlikely to be able to continue this way indefinately - it needs a continuous stream of products to sell or it will go out of business.

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst I wouldn't dispute the logic of smaller batches, I am a bemused by the reasons for doing so. Surely the final pre-production version of a model is tested for build quality etc. before Hornby gives the go ahead for the full production run. If so, why should their suddenly be lots of problems and a high rejection rate when the factory has already made a model that has been signed off for production? And why are they only doing packaging drop tests on the production models? Surely the final pre-pro models can be used to save time (and risk binning broken models from the production run that would otherwise be sold).

 

I can understand there may be problems if the tooling for existing models has been transferred to another factory, but is that actually the case? Hornby models are still coming from the Sanda Kan factory as reported by Pat Hammond in a recent MREMag. And there are plenty of new models that clearly have passed all the tests - e.g. the 2-BIL, "unconverted" Maunsell 3rd - where some versions have arrived but others not. Why hasn't the factory made the rest?

 

The answer has to be the allocation of production slots. I'm sure I've read that Chinese factories are finding it more difficult to retain skilled workers, but what I don't understand is why when those factories have customers (i.e Hornby etc) they seem unable or unwilling to recruit sufficient staff. If that means paying higher wages, then from a business perspective isn't that a factor they have to accept or risk going out of business because those same customers go elsewhere? Or do they know they can get away with it because they know the alternatives for the likes of Hornby or very limited at the price point Hornby has contracted to pay.

 

Whatever, Hornby is unlikely to be able to continue this way indefinately - it needs a continuous stream of products to sell or it will go out of business.

Some interesting comments in there and some of them do align with what I've heard from other sources while some don't.  There is a story abroad - definitely not from SK I hasten to add - that Hornby have received nothing at all from Kader this year.  But what does that actually mean?  According to Hornby's own forecasts earlier this year only 13% of their 2013 supply chain was expected to be coming from Kader compared with 36% last year - perhaps some of the delayed from previous year's items were from Kader and were put back and aren't in that figure?  But in reality we simply don't know and in any case is the story about nothing from Kader correct?

 

We have heard in the past (not from Hornby) that some Chinese factories work to relatively small runs of c.500 units at a time and if they are suffering manufacturing defects, as they gain experience, in those small batches then the SK comment makes sense.  One of their producers is seeing a near doubling (planned) in what it will supply in percentage terms of Hornby's  railway output this year and from a bit of past 'net delving all the companies I could find with that name are in a wide range of business, not just models so again small batches seem logical - but also for the reasons you mention.

 

And of course small batches might also reflect a cashflow situation although that does not seem to be a problem for Hornby judging by their accounts.

 

Overall of course there is a lot we don't know and both Hornby as a brand (perhaps only with part of the market) and retailers are not getting the best deal out of this situation, we can but hope taht the management attention they are now giving to their supply chain will be effective.

[Ozexpatriate]

And before anyone asks, I don't know the state of Hornby's bank account! Just applying a little logic. They have made substantial investment already in a fair number of items, some of which still have to make a profit for them. Wilth little product being shipped over, they haven't exactly got a good cashflow situation at the moment, even if they have good reserves.

You can pretty much look it up if you want to - perhaps not to an exact balance, but all the important information is in the annual reports.

 

This is probably one of the more instructive bits:

Banking Facilities

The Group has banking facilities of £14.5 million in the UK. At 31 march 2013 the Group had a revolving credit facility of £10 million expiring August 2015 and a 5-year fixed-term loan agreement of £12 million with repayments scheduled to July 2014 (£4.5 million is to be repaid between 31 march 2013 and July 2014). The Group also has additional facilities of £3.5 million in place in its European subsidiaries.

 

Borrowings in the year ended 31 march 2013 peaked at £9.9 million. During the year, to ensure the Group remained comfortably within its banking covenants for the duration of the current facilities, the terms were successfully renegotiated with its principal banker Barclays Plc with effect from December 2012.

Then you read between the lines. They weren't profitable last year. They are borrowing money. Their revenues pay (most of) the bills. This is the case for most businesses but cost control is important to Hornby right now.