coachmann Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Dropping standards linked to shortages is a crafty way of leading buyers into diving into purchasing for fear of losing out. Interesting times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimleygrid Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I don’t normally comment on such discussions but feel compelled to now. Like many modellers I have been waiting for a Large Logo 56, one of the liveries best associated with the class and lo and behold it has been delayed again. Another sector livery class 60 would also be much appreciated however that too has been delayed…..surely bread and butter stuff to sell to the punters?!! Hornby do not seem to know what they are. Are they a company that produce train sets or are they for the serious modeller? Do they want to be considered a serious player in the railway modelling world or are they there to make up the numbers? Scalextric, paints or model trains? Railroad for the lower end of the market and super detailed models for the higher end of the market, e.g. Lima 31 or 60 vs newer Hornby 31 and 60. Whilst I understand that like any company they are there to make a profit but surely the answer then has to come from the strategy. So what is their strategy? I am pretty sure that getting the right strategy can achieve a decent profit from the tools and skills available that the company possess. With great products such as the fantastic class 60 you can definitely make money, but at the right price, with the right product and for the targeted consumer i.e. what the customer wants. It does not appear to me that there seems to be this thinking. This may sound harsh but I have spoken to quite a few modellers that share the same sentiment and the old adage that the customer is always right may well bite them on the bottom! From my own experience and from talking to other modellers it would appear that time and time again Hornby have been given ideas for future releases only to be ignored. Perhaps this would explain the current situation and the direction that the company is heading. I have not purchased a brand new loco from Hornby for a few years, the main reason being that their prices are just too high in my opinion. Despite what a lot of people think the recession is still well and truly on and will get worse before it gets better which in turn will affect disposable income. The knock on effect is that this will hit the model railway market…… My conclusion is that in the grand scheme of things, me not buying any locos from them is not going to have much impact at all! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mow Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Guardian on Hornby's latest inability to deliver. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/nov/21/Hornby-moves-warehouse-out-of-margate Link for interim report. http://www.investegate.co.uk/Hornby-plc--hrn-/rns/half-yearly-report/201411210700076043X/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Abel Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 So Hornby are informing retailers about the shortfalls in "Exeter", I await the (non-)arrival of my notification with baited breath, especially as we have no sales rep. for our area at this time What a good job RMWeb is here, so that I can pick up information that by rights should come from Margate, if they are 'man enough' to confess to their problems. Yours, one incredibly frustrated retailer! Out of interest, and I certainly understand if you don't wish to say, how many did you have on order and how many pre-ordered for customers, that may well be disappointed as many of us are going to be, through no fault of yours? I'd LOVE to have been the fly on the wall in Margate when some d*ic*k-head said "...hey, let's screw our retailers and customers and sell the few we have ourselves..." be really nice to have the name of that prat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Express Blue Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I think their latest proclamation that you can pre order the remaining 2014 (sic) models from their website is a new moral low, even for Hornby. I pre-ordered with my usual dealer. They are trying to create panic by continued short delivery to the dealers and selling these desirable models direct thus cutting out the dealer discount. When a Dealer signs a trade order the small print tells you that you,as a dealer, are entering into a legal agreement. Well that cuts both ways. If they accept the order and then months (or years even) later cannot deliver then it is they who are in breach of contract. With his new initiative I wonder how long before a dealer sues for loss of profit on pre-orders that they had taken in good faith? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Express Blue Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Also let us not forget that their much vaunted CEO was let go by Bookmakers Ladbrokes for turning, in one year a healthy profit into a huge loss. If you cannot make a profit as a bookmaker I think your business credentials are shot! He has not made a stunning success at Margate. As a Shareholder I look forward to giving them hell at the AGM, although they will probably hold this in the outer Hebrides to avoid shareholders travelling to it and giving them grief. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raised On Steam Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Guardian on Hornby's latest inability to deliver. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/nov/21/Hornby-moves-warehouse-out-of-margate Link for interim report. http://www.investegate.co.uk/Hornby-plc--hrn-/rns/half-yearly-report/201411210700076043X/ I love how the Guardian couldn't resist mentioning Nigel Farage in an article about Hornby moving their warehouse. What's he got to do with model trains, planes and cars pray? I assume he has a massive layout in his attic? Or an extensive Scalextric set up in his garage? No? Then it must be that superbly weathered Airfix Vulcan bomber I saw that he'd built? Also let us not forget that their much vaunted CEO was let go by Bookmakers Ladbrokes for turning, in one year a healthy profit into a huge loss. If you cannot make a profit as a bookmaker I think your business credentials are shot! He has not made a stunning success at Margate. As a Shareholder I look forward to giving them hell at the AGM, although they will probably hold this in the outer Hebrides to avoid shareholders travelling to it and giving them grief. (shakes head and sighs) Interesting how certain high rolling company heads can screw up and lose mountains of money and then be hired someplace else with all forgotten and forgiven. I want to be a CEO - I HAVEN'T ever lost loads of money therefore I'm surely a safer bet, no? Where do I sign up to run a conglomerate? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raised On Steam Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Actually scrub that last comment as reading it back I remembered I was turned down for credit last year because I haven't had credit for over ten years and have no debt which made me a bad risk apparently. I'll tear up that CEO application form. Anyway, back to Hornby………. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike at C&M Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ian Abel, I got 1/3rd of my ordered quantity, and all were reserved in advance. I now have to convince these disappointed customers that it is not my mistake, one of which has already been let down by a Hornby non-supply earlier this year. It is very difficult to gain new customers, it is very easy to lose current customers. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Abel Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ian Abel, I got 1/3rd of my ordered quantity, and all were reserved in advance. I now have to convince these disappointed customers that it is not my mistake, one of which has already been let down by a Hornby non-supply earlier this year. It is very difficult to gain new customers, it is very easy to lose current customers. Mike Mike, WOW! Only a THIRD of what was ordered, I was thinking maybe 1/2 or a little better... that's simply terrible. No wonder evveryone is stating they are unable to meet the per-orders, it must be tough to call those later in line with that bad news. Hopefully there's not much convincing you'll have to do regarding who's fault it is, have them check here or other dealers for the same sorry story of an unreliable supplier, and it certainly wouldn't make me change my customer loyalty. I hear what you're saying, and hopefully they will be understanding albeit very disappointed <sigh> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Sadly I still think it is cashflow problems affecting Hornby. If they don't have the readies, the factory either won't manufacture, or if already done, will only supply those that can be paid for? I have no proof of this but more and more so it is showing signs of this. Also, there still seems to SK products being dispatched (though in limited quantities). This could be for the same reason; though it was stated earlier in the year, that agreement had been reached for a split from SK under agreed terms. Perhaps they have not kept to the agreement? Or some stock was already (perhaps partially) manufactured, and is being released. Maybe grudgingly, as they don't want to be bothered with Hornby anymore. I do now worry that my "wanted" models - J15, Claud, K1 - will sink without trace, as Hornby might just flounder or be sold. Not one to spread doom and gloom, but sadly trying to looksensibly at what seems to be happening but with no facts to hand to prove it either way. Hopefully I am wrong. Stewart I think Stewart your post says exactly what I am thinking, so I have repeated it. Much will depend on Hornby's report after the Xmas selling 'season'. I wouldn't expect Hornby to tell shareholders very clearly that they are living hand-to-mouth but that's what it looks like to me. A few Clauds on pre-order from me might persuade the banks to lend another £4 million? But then, I don't know much about Hornby's other brands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Express Blue Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Actually scrub that last comment as reading it back I remembered I was turned down for credit last year because I haven't had credit for over ten years and have no debt which made me a bad risk apparently. I'll tear up that CEO application form. Anyway, back to Hornby………. Sorry unless you have a proven record of screwing things up you cannot be a CEO. Rumor has it Hornby are going to try Fred Goodwin next! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike at C&M Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 As I have mentioned earlier, at least the scenario is well described on RMWeb. One of the non-supplied customers has been referred to the various threads on here in order to see how widespread the problem is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Exeter is listed on the Hornby website as SOLD OUT. Wow! 24 hours ago it was just a standard 'add to basket', no, 'hurry, only 3 left'. With the weathered A3 'hurry, only 3 left' stayed for quite some time. Curiously I only discovered the A3s for sale because Hornby said there would be a delay until early-mid December before they would receive stock to replace my faulty version (do they know when stock is arriving?), effectively post-Xmas for me in NZ... so I complained. as well as actually buying one of the '3' left , I can always re-number re-name or sell-on (sorry Ian, yes, I bought a Exeter too, but not for the sole purpose of profit).. so I have two A3s and a 34001 in the mail presumably, and Larry it seems Hornby do not advise of actual despatch, so like you I will believe it when I see it. Give their standard £25 fee for air packet to NZ (free for orders over £125) it OUGHT to be a tracked parcel. But isn't. Oh, and as soon as I complained about them selling the A3 on line when they said they didn't have any in stock, they said that my replacement 'was being packed today' and would be sent.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted November 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ian Abel, I got 1/3rd of my ordered quantity, and all were reserved in advance. I now have to convince these disappointed customers that it is not my mistake, one of which has already been let down by a Hornby non-supply earlier this year. It is very difficult to gain new customers, it is very easy to lose current customers. Mike Out of interest, and I certainly understand if you don't wish to say, how many did you have on order and how many pre-ordered for customers, that may well be disappointed as many of us are going to be, through no fault of yours? I'd LOVE to have been the fly on the wall in Margate when some d*ic*k-head said "...hey, let's screw our retailers and customers and sell the few we have ourselves..." be really nice to have the name of that prat :jesteir:[/quote This reminds me of "The Godfather". Perhaps in a few hours time,I will be emboldened to make Hornby an "offer they cannot refuse" at the NEC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted November 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2014 Perhaps in a few hours time,I will be emboldened to make Hornby an "offer they cannot refuse" at the NEC. If you can get past the Police in Riot Gear surrounding the Hornby Stand....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Culmhead Posted November 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2014 I don't often post on RMweb, but on this occasion I feel the need, with all the speculation and in some instances quite (IMHO) unnecessary comments relating to individuals within Hornby. However, I can understand the frustration and disappointment that many of us feel (both modellers and retailers alike), but were does the blame really lie? Hornby appear to have been short changed by their supplier (Kader), who after all is one of their main competitors in the European market at least! Time now for some speculation on my own part (sorry), Kader have from what I can gather have reduced their capacity, either by intention or industrial disputes (these are not necessarily mutually exclusive), Kader have had issues supplying their own products on time, many taking a number years. In that position, would you prefer to supply not only your competitor but one taking their business elsewhere, with all they require or would you concentrate fixing your own supply issues? I am not trying to cause speculation, but trying (probably quite clumsily) to offer a different perspective. In the case of Exeter, I suspect Hornby have divided the stock received on a equal % basis of initial order for all - including their own website - I would very much doubt that they knew the pre-orders of each retailer! Result - Hornby gets the blame for their manufacturer not manufacturing the agreed quantity! The law in China is not the same as in the UK, and in my experience will always favour indigenous organisations (protectionism, perhaps). As we all know Kader (from previous posts) are not exactly in the best of health either. P.S. Exeter was available from Ian Allan in Cardiff yesterday. With Hornby's improving financials and with the possible sale of the Margate site, hopefully, they can ride the storm and keep within their banking covenants. Lets face it, if Hornby go under we will all suffer with reduced competition in the model railway market and prices are bound to rise and development may slow down. I am not sure that the relatively new entrants will be able to fill the gap effectively. Sometimes, we all forget, myself included, that Hornby are the main introducer to new entrants to railway modelling, either by reputation/name or by offering many more starter sets than any of their competitors. One thing that the new CEO has recognised, that unless you have a permanent base/staff in China (or for that matter in any overseas base), the culture and quality will suffer. This is not cheap, again, in my experience we are talking of costs (including accommodation) between £150-250k per year. All the best, Aidan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2014 Plenty of Spam cans in Tesco's this afternoon !!!!!!!! Hat, coat, ------------------- Brit15 Is that the only livery they have? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Its worked well for Hornby, all of Exeter has been sold on their site as of last night. They should be ashamed of thereselves with their attitude and underhand practices. Hope they have bulletproof vests on at Warley this morning . That of course is presuming they have the nerve to turn up. The dealers should all get together and sue them and refer them to Trading Standards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2014 I'm sorry mick but I have to disagree with you there. Hornby's retailers all signed the new contracts and agreed to their terms earlier this year. They knew what may happen. Although I do agree it's frustrating, they knew the position they were getting into. And if they were not happy with it, they had the option to not sign it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 One thing for sure - they'll be able to report an "excellent" Christmas sales period - they've sold out of key models, and the Xmas Train Set sold out too.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2014 Yeah that's very true Hroth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 If you are ordering from Hornby or any other retailer remember to use a credit card and not a debit card as if the worst happens you will not lose your money! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I'm sorry mick but I have to disagree with you there. Hornby's retailers all signed the new contracts and agreed to their terms earlier this year. They knew what may happen. Although I do agree it's frustrating, they knew the position they were getting into. And if they were not happy with it, they had the option to not sign it. I don't think it was explicitly pointed out to retailers that they could expect to be short-changed on deliveries, which they had pre-ordered on the basis of known customer orders, whilst Hornby retained stock to sell direct. The option to sign or not sign was also hardly an option if retailers wanted to continue to be Hornby stockists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 The words honesty and transparency are often banded around and Hornby have either being careless or deliberately created the current situation. The problem now is that they have damaged their relationship with some of their main customers and lost theire trust and fixing that issue is not going to be easy. Forget all the reports regarding Hornby in the media, as they are always have a positive spin. It may just be that Hornby's trading position is much worse than it appears and they are in a desperate state! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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