Where are the Hornby models?

[Fenman]

Its worked well for Hornby, all of Exeter has been sold on their site as of last night. They should be ashamed of thereselves with their attitude and underhand practices. ... The dealers should all get together and sue them and refer them to Trading Standards.

 

Beyond what some of the parties have said on here, I have no idea what the commercial relationship is between Hornby and its dealers. But almost all the comments seem to assume that "we" all get our stock from a local model shop, so the retention by Hornby of some models for their own web shop is somehow underhand.

 

With the closure of vast numbers of shops, many of us live nowhere near one. What seems to be emerging in some posts (not necessarily the one I've quoted!) is a suggestion that model shops should get priority over Hornby's own web outlet, which disregards the possibility that, for some customers, the latter is their preferred (or possibly only practical) shop.

 

It may be (or it may not - like most on here, I'm simply speculating) that Hornby did not receive everything they have ordered. They may have simply divided up what they did receive on a pro rata basis. But that pro rata basis should, of course, include their own website - otherwise they would be cheating one group of their end customers.

 

I am constantly surprised at the level of anger and, in some cases, rage expressed by some people about the non-arrival of a Hornby model. Yes, it is disappointing. Yes, it is annoying. But no-one's going to die*.

 

Equally, the explosion of competitors may mean you have an alternative supplier for your wants. Certainly if I modelled GWR/WR, after this morning I'd be wondering if I "needed" to purchase anything from Hornby.

 

Paul

 

 

* Unless the rage becomes so overwhelming that one of us has a heart attack. Which may be possible, I guess.

[leavesontheline]

Putting myself in Hornby's position, I'm not sure what I would have done with the limited supply of R3115, that it appears they weren't even expecting a delivery of! Judging by the speed with which they went from the website, it doesn't look like they kept many for themselves. This is all speculation but assuming they didn't have enough to fulfill all the retailer's pre-orders, some people were always going to end up disappointed. Probably someone had the difficult decision, or maybe it was just a simple % based decision based on order quantities, to allocate the limited stock. Perhaps Hornby always allocate some of this % for their own 'shop'.

 

If it was my factory/company and my shiny new product had just come into my facility just before Christmas in much smaller quantities than I had expected, what would I do? Difficult..... but I would probably have wanted to sell a small % from my own 'shop' too.

[coachmann]

I wonder how people feel about buying a £50,00 coach of Hornby's website then a day later seeing a trader telling everyone on RMweb they can buy one and get one free of their stand at Warley = £25.00 per coach. Something is awry there when these coaches have been rather exclusive and not generally available in model shops.

[Retro_man]

Beyond what some of the parties have said on here, I have no idea what the commercial relationship is between Hornby and its dealers. But almost all the comments seem to assume that "we" all get our stock from a local model shop, so the retention by Hornby of some models for their own web shop is somehow underhand.

 

With the closure of vast numbers of shops, many of us live nowhere near one. What seems to be emerging in some posts (not necessarily the one I've quoted!) is a suggestion that model shops should get priority over Hornby's own web outlet, which disregards the possibility that, for some customers, the latter is their preferred (or possibly only practical) shop.

 

It may be (or it may not - like most on here, I'm simply speculating) that Hornby did not receive everything they have ordered. They may have simply divided up what they did receive on a pro rata basis. But that pro rata basis should, of course, include their own website - otherwise they would be cheating one group of their end customers.

 

I am constantly surprised at the level of anger and, in some cases, rage expressed by some people about the non-arrival of a Hornby model. Yes, it is disappointing. Yes, it is annoying. But no-one's going to die*.

 

Equally, the explosion of competitors may mean you have an alternative supplier for your wants. Certainly if I modelled GWR/WR, after this morning I'd be wondering if I "needed" to purchase anything from Hornby.

 

Paul

 

 

* Unless the rage becomes so overwhelming that one of us has a heart attack. Which may be possible, I guess.

 

R3115 was originally offered by Hornby as part of their 2012 releases. We along with other dealers had to place our orders in early 2012 to be reasonably sure of getting some. The quantity we ordered was then allocated to customers as they pre ordered.

 

So if I placed my order with Hornby in January 2012 and got l none, why wouldn't I be miffed when Hornby was selling them direct to customers who had not pre-ordered?

 

My order of almost 3 years standing was worthless and the confidence of my customers was lost and will be hard to regain.

 

Surely Hornby knew what was coming from China weeks ago and could have informed retailers of the allocation in advance?

 

Steve

[Oldddudders]

With the closure of vast numbers of shops, many of us live nowhere near one. What seems to be emerging in some posts (not necessarily the one I've quoted!) is a suggestion that model shops should get priority over Hornby's own web outlet, which disregards the possibility that, for some customers, the latter is their preferred (or possibly only practical) shop.

 

 

I clearly do not have a local Hornby dealer, or indeed any sort of model shop worthy of the name. So I deal with UK model shops which choose to offer a mail order service. Indeed, while I am not weeping over any of the missing models, it was such a shop, Kernow, that first alerted me to the shortfall in deliveries. In that respect, Hornby's direct mail gets me nowhere, but it gets Hornby a lot more income. And I'm sure it is the future they envisage.

[coachmann]

I clearly do not have a local Hornby dealer, or indeed any sort of model shop worthy of the name. So I deal with UK model shops which choose to offer a mail order service. Indeed, while I am not weeping over any of the missing models, it was such a shop, Kernow, that first alerted me to the shortfall in deliveries. In that respect, Hornby's direct mail gets me nowhere, but it gets Hornby a lot more income. And I'm sure it is the future they envisage.

I tend to agree. The 'contract' that Hornby dished out for model shop owners to agree to and sign a year ago could have been just one tactic to hack off retailers good style so that Hornby would have a smoother ride into setting up their own sales-direct. It seems like short-termism but one can never tell in a rapidly developing market linked to internet presence. Clearly many RMwebbers buy on impulse after seeing images on the net and so perhaps shops are not necessary except for people who have never bought into model railways before. If Bachmann trainsets are on display in retail outlets then the public will likely go for those.

[Xerces Fobe2]

R3115 was originally offered by Hornby as part of their 2012 releases. We along with other dealers had to place our orders in early 2012 to be reasonably sure of getting some. The quantity we ordered was then allocated to customers as they pre ordered.

 

So if I placed my order with Hornby in January 2012 and got l none, why wouldn't I be miffed when Hornby was selling them direct to customers who had not pre-ordered?

 

My order of almost 3 years standing was worthless and the confidence of my customers was lost and will be hard to regain.

 

Surely Hornby knew what was coming from China weeks ago and could have informed retailers of the allocation in advance?

 

Steve

Call me old fashioned but what ever happened to first come, first served? Disregard for the traders and loyal customers is the start of journey on the road to oblivion!

[SDJR7F88]

I wonder how people feel about buying a £50,00 coach of Hornby's website then a day later seeing a trader telling everyone on RMweb they can buy one and get one free of their stand at Warley = £25.00 per coach. Something is awry there when these coaches have been rather exclusive and not generally available in model shops.

I that it that is the new Teaks...?   If so, seem a bit sad that people who can't make it to Warley, seem to miss out in the deals and of course the good old local model shop.    

[Removed a/c]

Why don't they just say that due to production delays and to allow us to catch up there will be no 2105 models announced. I mean this is in effect what is happening anyway, why sugar coat it? 

[Hilux5972]

Why don't they just say that due to production delays and to allow us to catch up there will be no 2105 models announced. I mean this is in effect what is happening anyway, why sugar coat it?

Surely by 2105 they will either be out of business, or caught up with all of their models haha

[Mike Storey]

Why don't they just say that due to production delays and to allow us to catch up there will be no 2105 models announced. I mean this is in effect what is happening anyway, why sugar coat it? 

 

At least one of the models (Class 71) is shown as due for release in 2016. It is more likely an attempt to dampen the entrance of new players, which this and the Radial clearly do. Again, whilst perfectly valid business practice, it is not exactly crying out trust and integrity.

 

Not at all clear what business model they are playing here. I do so hope they are not trying to reduce high street retailer involvement, as they will come off very badly. Like Ian, I rely often on internet retailing through necessity, but not usually for major purchases - I get those when I visit the UK, and go to shops I know will help me. It is getting harder to find them. On my last visit (Invicta), there were few of the several Hornby models I was looking to buy, so I bought Heljan and Bachmann instead. This was not because they made the same models, but because they were there and I could justify utilising them, with a bit of modeller's licence.

[Loconuts]

Loyalty, Whose loyalty, on this site we see people stating their loyalty to their local retailer but how many people on this thread can put their hands up who have never gone to their local retailer on a Saturday morning to look at the latest Hornby offering and then purchased it on line from a retailer offering a discount price.  Not many.

Hornby is a business which has to make a profit and has no doubt seen that by selling direct that they can keep all the profit to themselves. They have to discount the product to the retailer, less profit  for Hornby.  They then see that retailer selling that model for less than the RRP.  The model kit manufacturers have been selling direct for years, I don't hear anyone shouting about that.  They also sell direct to the public at shows so why shouldn't the RTR do so.  Hornby are not a charity, the retailer is only thinking of ingenious ways to ease the cash out of your pocket and keeping as much of it in his pocket.  He really isn't your close mate, stop spending in his shop and see how friendly he remains, he is a salesman looking out for number one.

Also some retailers are making a direct attack on the established manufacturers with their own commissioned models, if it is good enough for them to get into manufacturing then it is good enough for the manufacturer to get into retailing.  Are we going to get a thread condemning Kernow or Hattons for becoming manufacturers as it endangers the livelihood of Hornby or Bachmann, I think not.

The way we shop is changing due to the Internet and communications, how many would have thought a few years ago that you can order the latest Hornby Loco while sat waiting for your train etc. I have never visited my local retailer, they are based in Denver, USA.

I can tell by the comments that many of the people on this thread are collectors and not modelers, so why should they worry about the plight of the retailer.  They don't need to purchase rail joiners on a Saturday, they spend the Saturday clogging up the retailers shop with no intention of making a purchase whilst the genuine customer is trying the get served and get back to their car which is parked on double yellow lines as all the parking is taken up by these collectors.

 

Loconuts 

[southernelectric]

Loyalty, Whose loyalty, on this site we see people stating their loyalty to their local retailer but how many people on this thread can put their hands up who have never gone to their local retailer on a Saturday morning to look at the latest Hornby offering and then purchased it on line from a retailer offering a discount price.  Not many.

Hornby is a business which has to make a profit and has no doubt seen that by selling direct that they can keep all the profit to themselves. They have to discount the product to the retailer, less profit  for Hornby.  They then see that retailer selling that model for less than the RRP.  The model kit manufacturers have been selling direct for years, I don't hear anyone shouting about that.  They also sell direct to the public at shows so why shouldn't the RTR do so.  Hornby are not a charity, the retailer is only thinking of ingenious ways to ease the cash out of your pocket and keeping as much of it in his pocket.  He really isn't your close mate, stop spending in his shop and see how friendly he remains, he is a salesman looking out for number one.

Also some retailers are making a direct attack on the established manufacturers with their own commissioned models, if it is good enough for them to get into manufacturing then it is good enough for the manufacturer to get into retailing.  Are we going to get a thread condemning Kernow or Hattons for becoming manufacturers as it endangers the livelihood of Hornby or Bachmann, I think not.

The way we shop is changing due to the Internet and communications, how many would have thought a few years ago that you can order the latest Hornby Loco while sat waiting for your train etc. I have never visited my local retailer, they are based in Denver, USA.

I can tell by the comments that many of the people on this thread are collectors and not modelers, so why should they worry about the plight of the retailer.  They don't need to purchase rail joiners on a Saturday, they spend the Saturday clogging up the retailers shop with no intention of making a purchase whilst the genuine customer is trying the get served and get back to their car which is parked on double yellow lines as all the parking is taken up by these collectors.

 

Loconuts 

 

At this stage of the game, with no layout and only a rolling road and a Hornby trackmat train set to run my trains on (no layout) I very much fall into the camp of the collector. My long-term plan is to have a layout though.

 

I spend a lot of money in the local independent shops that still exist in my area....one problem has been that they've been starved of new Hornby products over the last couple of years. They've not been able to put as many red boxes on the shelves as much as they could have done in the past because until very recently so little product was coming through.

 

Invariably I've walked out with a blue box product and not a red box one, with a few exceptions in the case of the latter - usually older models that they've had in stock for a while because so few red boxes have been coming through. I enjoy the experience of buying from a model shop and long may it continue - even if I'm to be derided by some - as a 'collector'.

 

Yes, I buy my share of stuff from the big Liverpool and Sheffield suppliers. But I also spend a large sum of money with my local independents (who have online presence too) and retailers that I'd like to visit in-person but are too far away (Kernow, for example).

 

I know a collector who has no intention of building a model railway at all. Last time I was in one of my local shops he was at the till paying for a substantial amount of product - not just quantity but monetary value. I think it's unfair to tarnish all 'collectors' with the same brush. This particular person collects them to display/admire. What makes him less of a genuine customer than some buying a pack of rail joiners? He was spending money in the shop, and a lot of it as well.

 

I doubt if anyone at Barwell or Margate is losing sleep over Kernow or Hattons or anyone else commissioning their own products. It's not likely to put them out of business. 

 

If Hornby wish to sell online fine - I don't think most people have a problem with that in principle. But...don't short-change the retailers with products that they have had on order for a long time, and when those products come into stock deny your retailers the opportunity to fulfill their existing customer orders while at the same time putting those same products online in your own web shop! That's the crux of the issue with the current Exeter/Bittern debacle.

[Silver Sidelines]

I notice that the Hornby Shop website is now showig the forthcoming Britannia models are 'Pre order Stock sold out'.  I wonder if these also were old Sanda Kan production where the full batch was not completed? I guess we will just have to wait to be amazed.

 

Ray

[southernelectric]

I notice that the Hornby Shop website is now showig the forthcoming Britannia models are 'Pre order Stock sold out'.  I wonder if these also were old Sanda Kan production where the full batch was not completed? I guess we will just have to wait to be amazed.

 

Ray

 

I guess we'll have to see, but I thought all SK production had stopped now?

[Ravenser]

 

 

Thus far commissioners have announced things that no-one else has done , often through the big manufacturers. Hattons/DJM announcing two locos which have been in a manufacturers range for many years takes us into new territory, especially when it duplicates a new model under development by said manufacturer which was presumably intended as the flagship of their 2015 programme. If Margate aren't concerned about that development , they'd be being extremely complacent

[southernelectric]

Thus far commissioners have announced things that no-one else has done , often through the big manufacturers. Hattons/DJM announcing two locos which have been in a manufacturers range for many years takes us into new territory, especially when it duplicates a new model under development by said manufacturer which was presumably intended as the flagship of their 2015 programme. If Margate aren't concerned about that development , they'd be being extremely complacent

 

Sure, one would hope Margate wouldn't be complacent about it and I'm sure they're not. The fact that new players are entering the market alongside the more established players is a good thing IMHO. It gives us as buyers more choice of models even if there is some duplication in the models being produced.

 

If anything it will mean the bigger, more established players are going to up their game because of the cheeky upstarts entering the market. That is a win-win for us as consumers - unless the prices get out of control of course!

 

Disruption caused by the new entrants to any market is a good thing but the point I was making is that I doubt Margate and Barwell are losing sleep over it. Not yet anyway!

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi

 

Can I point you in the direction of the parallel thread dealing  specifically with Exeter relased in SK boxes..

 

There is a post from Andy Young confirming that production from Sanda Kan ceased in March.  So as others have pointed out - these SK labelled models must have been lying around or the quantities known about for some time?

....... but I thought all SK production had stopped now?

Regards  Ray

[Ian Hargrave]

I notice that the Hornby Shop website is now showig the forthcoming Britannia models are 'Pre order Stock sold out'.  I wonder if these also were old Sanda Kan production where the full batch was not completed? I guess we will just have to wait to be amazed.

 

Ray

And,Ray,having pre ordered 70043 (with its deflectors,unfortunately..but that's another story),I hope we'll all be AGREEABLY amazed.

[southernelectric]

Hi

 

Can I point you in the direction of the parallel thread dealing  specifically with Exeter relased in SK boxes..

 

There is a post from Andy Young confirming that production from Sanda Kan ceased in March.  So as others have pointed out - these SK labelled modles must have been lying around or the quantities known about for some time?

Regards  Ray

 

Oh I'm well aware of the parallel thread about Exeter, Ray. You'll see quite a few posts in there from me :-) 

 

What I don't get is why the Britannias due for release next year might be being made at SK, as they have only just recently been announced? Whereas Exeter was announced a long time ago.

 

Or maybe I have just, put simply, lost the plot!

[Silver Sidelines]

Sorry SouthernElectric - I had missed your contributions.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[coachmann]

Kernow and Hattons etc :- Don't people realise that such retailers are placing commissions to have their locos produced by Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan etc and are spending lots of money with these companies. They are not obliged to take on commissions and it is doubtful they see them as competition.

 

Selling direct :-  Hornby is under pressure to find ways of maximising its profits and sensitivity was the first casualty.

 

Duplication :-  This always halves a potential market, but it was compounded by retailers discounting to break-even point and the RTR companies losing out all round. By selling direct from its own website, a RTR company has full control over the selling price and therefore maximises profit. 

 

Purchasing :-  Impulsive buying has been around a very long time along with a feeling that model shops were an important link for displaying goods. Even the model magazines changed their format to include large in-your-face images of new releases, but things have changed in a very short time and the clue lies in the very website we are all members of here. We get to see images of new products the minute someone decides to announce something and this in turn feeds an impulse to purchase or a least pre-order.

 

Problem :-  We don't just buy RTR locos and rolling stock....!  Many people build layouts to run them on. The good model shop is a clearing house where track components, building and scenic materials, kits for buildings are available under one roof together with free advice! For this to work without model shops, the 'after-market' suppliers would need to up their game and produce interesting websites that inform people of their product range in an illustrative way in place of long boring typewritten lists. If it weren't for Bob at Alton Model Railway Centre (plus a few links given by members on here), I would not have been aware of half the products I have purchased during layout construction.

 

Things will move on regardless and all we can do is adapt.

[southernelectric]

Sorry SouthernElectric - I had missed your contributions.

 

Regards

 

Ray

 

How could you have? ;-) 

 

Seriously, I still don't get how SK could be making the new webshop/concession only Britannias though...

[southernelectric]

Bob at Alton Model Railway Centre 

 

Here's to Bob, a friendly and chatty retailer for whom it seems nothing is too much trouble. Always enjoy a visit there, I've learned a lot from him about the REAL railway too (he's very knowledgeable, not just about models) and rarely leave empty-handed...a pleasure to do business with.

[Silver Sidelines]

i only said "I wonder if" - my logic (probably warped) was that I was surprised that the model was sold out at preorder stage and that they (Hornby) had not received as many items as they would have liked.  No other reason.

 

Regards

 

Ray