Hornby GWR Hall

[Cy Lindercocks]

While running on the main line you will find that Olton Hall runs as itself with the late BR crest on the tender. This is as per West Coast Railway Companies agreement with Warner Brothers.

 

The locomotive only ran as Hogwarts Castle with the Hogwarts crest for filming purposes.

[Legend]

Hi

I can not find any info that this Hall ever carried this livery, seem to me that Hornby may have lost the licencing on the HP stuff, looks like Hornby just stuck the Great Western on it so they can sell them?.

Darren

While Cy has pointed out the loco runs with BR insignia, it is noticeable that as well as no Thomas in the range there is no Hogwarts specials either. Perhaps this reflects an new policy in Hornby with regards taking out expensive licences

 

I am looking for an unmodified Hall with late BR crest and Collett tender, so I think that means I'm restricted to the full fat Hornby version, as I think I'm correct in saying the Bachmann version has a Hawksworth tender

[frobisher]

Legend, on 27 Jan 2014 - 13:46, said:

While Cy has pointed out the loco runs with BR insignia, it is noticeable that as well as no Thomas in the range there is no Hogwarts specials either. Perhaps this reflects an new policy in Hornby with regards taking out expensive licences

It could also be that licensed products aren't being featured in the main catalogue from now on, and also that there are no new products for the licensed ranges this year. It's my understanding that the Harry Potter production is now solely geared at supplying the theme park(s) rather than the normal retail sector now, and perhaps something similar might be happening with Thomas?

 

Whilst we've not had any announcements in this regard, perhaps Hornby have let the Thomas license lapse or it has expired?

[Cy Lindercocks]

It could also be that licensed products aren't being featured in the main catalogue from now on, and also that there are no new products for the licensed ranges this year. It's my understanding that the Harry Potter production is now solely geared at supplying the theme park(s) rather than the normal retail sector now, and perhaps something similar might be happening with Thomas?

 

Whilst we've not had any announcements in this regard, perhaps Hornby have let the Thomas license lapse or it has expired?

 

 

Interestingly enough I have discovered that on  7th.June  this year Olton Hall is carrying out one last mainline excursion hauling the Wizard Express from Carnforth to York and return before being retired to Warner Brothers Museum.

 

For anyone interested the Railway Touring Company are the promotors

[Ozexpatriate]

Perhaps this reflects an new policy in Hornby with regards taking out expensive licence.

Or a temporary economy measure to avoid licensing fees hitting their cashflow.

[Ozexpatriate]

Olton Hall is ... being retired to Warner Brothers Museum.

Should Warner Brothers commission a model from Hornby for the museum shop, Hornby would be ready to go.

 

Universal Orlando's "The Wizarding World of Harry Potter" attraction in Florida is about to open their Diagon Alley area this summer. HP merchandising continues in full swing.

 

Come to Florida to visit "London".

 

From the pictures they are building a train shed for King's Cross too.

[Cy Lindercocks]

Should Warner Brothers commission a model from Hornby for the museum shop, Hornby would be ready to go.

 

Universal Orlando's "The Wizarding World of Harry Potter" attraction in Florida is about to open their Diagon Alley area this summer. HP merchandising continues in full swing.

 

Come to Florida to visit "London".

 

From the pictures they are building a train shed for King's Cross too.

 

 

And they have built a "replica" of Olton Hall too for florida so there must be potential sales there also.

[S.A.C Martin]

Interestingly enough I have discovered that on  7th.June  this year Olton Hall is carrying out one last mainline excursion hauling the Wizard Express from Carnforth to York and return before being retired to Warner Brothers Museum.

 

For anyone interested the Railway Touring Company are the promotors

 

I am pretty certain Warner Brothers do not own Olton Hall in any way, shape or form? So how can it be "retired" to the Warners Brothers Museum?

 

I should add that 5972 has never run with Great -crest- Western on the tender whilst carrying the red livery - not if a simple google search is anything to go by with literally thousands of shots showing the engine with the Hogwarts Railways crest.

 

The only photograph showing this livery variation is a mock up to advertise the Hornby model on the Antics website.

 

Is has - however - run with "WCR" on the tender instead of the Hogwarts Crest, but this was extremely short lived...

 

In short, Darren is absolutely spot on the money. This is not a livery Olton Hall has actually carried and is I suspect done so as to not infringe a license Hornby no longer hold.

[Cy Lindercocks]

I am pretty certain Warner Brothers do not own Olton Hall in any way, shape or form? So how can it be "retired" to the Warners Brothers Museum?

 

I should add that 5972 has never run with Great -crest- Western on the tender whilst carrying the red livery - not if a simple google search is anything to go by with literally thousands of shots showing the engine with the Hogwarts Railways crest.

 

The only photograph showing this livery variation is a mock up to advertise the Hornby model on the Antics website.

 

Is has - however - run with "WCR" on the tender instead of the Hogwarts Crest, but this was extremely short lived...

 

In short, Darren is absolutely spot on the money. This is not a livery Olton Hall has actually carried and is I suspect done so as to not infringe a license Hornby no longer hold.

 

 

As to the ownership of Olton Hall I make no comment and Smithy of Carnforth is not likely to either. However there plenty of internet activity today (and see the RTC website) to substantiate that the loco. is retiring to the Warner Bros. museum. Let google be your friend.

 

In addition may I say that, as a support crew member for another locomotive in the same pool as Olton Hall, that for at least a fortnight while I was with the two locos. it certainly had the BR late crest on the tender.

 

I have never offered an opinion as to Hornby's  current rights to the Harry Potter trade marks which may or may not be the case but at best can only be speculation on here, no-one knows for sure but I do not that Hornby usually work with the Owners of preserved locomotives they model to present the model in line with the owners wishes.

[S.A.C Martin]

As to the ownership of Olton Hall I make no comment and Smithy of Carnforth is not likely to either. However there plenty of internet activity today (and see the RTC website) to substantiate that the loco. is retiring to the Warner Bros. museum. Let google be your friend.

 

No no - if you have evidence, back up your own claims. It's not for me to go and do that for you.

 

You've made the claim that the locomotive is going to be retired and sent to the Warner Brothers museum. Not I.

 

As far as anyone is aware it is sojourning at the NRM for the immediate future, that is certainly what has been described on the NRM's website for one and it has not been reported in the railway press at any time that 5972 is going to a Warner Brothers Museum.

 

If you have information to the contrary, please correct me, I am happy to be corrected.

 

In addition may I say that, as a support crew member for another locomotive in the same pool as Olton Hall, that for at least a fortnight while I was with the two locos. it certainly had the BR late crest on the tender.

 

Which, to be fair, is not the same livery as that depicted by the Hornby model which shows Great - crest - Western livery and was the immediate concern of other posters on this thread.

 

I do not in any way, shape or form argue that the real locomotive may or may not have carried the BR late crest but that is not what Hornby are producing if their pre-production mock up is anything to go by.

 

I have never offered an opinion as to Hornby's  current rights to the Harry Potter trade marks which may or may not be the case but at best can only be speculation on here, no-one knows for sure but I do not that Hornby usually work with the Owners of preserved locomotives they model to present the model in line with the owners wishes.

 

That may well be but the crux of the matter is that the livery Hornby have chosen Olton Hall has never carried, unless you have photographic evidence to the contrary?

[Cy Lindercocks]

No no - if you have evidence, back up your own claims. It's not for me to go and do that for you.

 

You've made the claim that the locomotive is going to be retired and sent to the Warner Brothers museum. Not I.

 

As far as anyone is aware it is sojourning at the NRM for the immediate future, that is certainly what has been described on the NRM's website for one and it has not been reported in the railway press at any time that 5972 is going to a Warner Brothers Museum.

 

If you have information to the contrary, please correct me, I am happy to be corrected.

 

 

Which, to be fair, is not the same livery as that depicted by the Hornby model which shows Great - crest - Western livery and was the immediate concern of other posters on this thread.

 

I do not in any way, shape or form argue that the real locomotive may or may not have carried the BR late crest but that is not what Hornby are producing if their pre-production mock up is anything to go by.

 

 

That may well be but the crux of the matter is that the livery Hornby have chosen Olton Hall has never carried, unless you have photographic evidence to the contrary?

 

 

S A C Martin, One gets the feeling that you do not like evidence which contradicts your views. Railway Touring Company are promoting, in conjunction with West Coast Railway Company, a tour, as I have already stated which is billed as being Olton Hall's last before retirement to Warner Bothers Museum/. Why the owner and one of their railtour partners would promote this if it were not true I do not know. 

 

However if you do not wish to believe me then that is fine, I do not feel in any way to provide you with any evidence, I am not a Barrister presenting evidence to a Judge and Jury. 

 

Time will tell who has the correct information but I fail to understand your attitude, it is not a matter of life or death either way s it?

 

It should also be noted that various Yahoo railway groups are reporting the sale of the locomotive to Warner Brothers , and as a regular on National Preservation you will also find comment on that forum I am informed (not being a member myself, but being told that you are a frequent and vexatious  poster on there).

[S.A.C Martin]

S A C Martin, One gets the feeling that you do not like evidence which contradicts your views. Railway Touring Company are promoting, in conjunction with West Coast Railway Company, a tour, as I have already stated which is billed as being Olton Hall's last before retirement to Warner Bothers Museum/. Why the owner and one of their railtour partners would promote this if it were not true I do not know. 

 

However if you do not wish to believe me then that is fine, I do not feel in any way to provide you with any evidence, I am not a Barrister presenting evidence to a Judge and Jury. 

 

Time will tell who has the correct information but I fail to understand your attitude, it is not a matter of life or death either way s it?

 

Cy Linderlocks, you have missed the point entirely. You haven't produced any evidence and merely given some views, all unsubstantiated.

 

However I have checked the RTC website (which you did not provide a link to or reference to, despite being asked) and here is what they say:

 

 

Our train leaves York for the return journey at around 16:30 and will be hauled by steam locomotive No. 5972 “Olton Hall”. We follow the same route back to Carnforth where we say ‘goodbye’ to our steam locomotive which will then be taken to the Warner Bros Museum for the rest of its days. A diesel locomotive will haul our train back to Manchester Victoria, stopping at the same stations as on the outward journey to set down passengers.

 

 

Link here.

 

Where was the difficulty in providing that?

 

I find it awfully difficult to believe that West Coast Railways would sell a working Hall class locomotive to spend out the rest of its day in the United States - and if they did, it is an utter disgrace and I would hope, would entice some indignation in some quarters in the preservation world, given the fact a perfectly usable replica already exists at Universal Studios (who says they can't make another?)

 

However a further note. The model in question shows Olton Hall in a red livery, with Great-crest-Western on the tender. You have stated numerous times that a BR logo has been used on the tender. That wasn't the issue or the question posed earlier in the thread. The question was whether Olton Hall had run with Great-crest-Western on the tender. No she hasn't, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

 

Now, I have produced my evidence, and yours for you, and my view above remains clear for all to see. This isn't a matter of life or death by any means, but it is about reading what has been asked and resoundingly accordingly.

 

So perhaps you will accept that you have could have produced the above link previously to qualify your views, and that you were incorrect in saying Hornby's proposed livery is correct for the locomotive (it is not, and has not been any time).

 

I will accept, rightly so, that you are right about the RTC description; however I must qualify that with increasing amounts of scepticism as I cannot believe that anyone in the United Kingdom would sell (for any price) a working steam locomotive just so that it can sit in a Museum in Los Angeles for all time.

 

If you turn out to be right on that point, you have my sincere apologies.

[Cy Lindercocks]

Cy Linderlocks, you have missed the point entirely. You haven't produced any evidence and merely given some views, all unsubstantiated.

 

However I have checked the RTC website (which you did not provide a link to or reference to, despite being asked) and here is what they say:

 

 

Link here.

 

Where was the difficulty in providing that?

 

I find it awfully difficult to believe that West Coast Railways would sell a working Hall class locomotive to spend out the rest of its day in the United States - and if they did, it is an utter disgrace and I would hope, would entice some indignation in some quarters in the preservation world, given the fact a perfectly usable replica already exists at Universal Studios (who says they can't make another?)

 

However a further note. The model in question shows Olton Hall in a red livery, with Great-crest-Western on the tender. You have stated numerous times that a BR logo has been used on the tender. That wasn't the issue or the question posed earlier in the thread. The question was whether Olton Hall had run with Great-crest-Western on the tender. No she hasn't, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

 

Now, I have produced my evidence, and yours for you, and my view above remains clear for all to see. This isn't a matter of life or death by any means, but it is about reading what has been asked and resoundingly accordingly.

 

So perhaps you will accept that you have could have produced the above link previously to qualify your views, and that you were incorrect in saying Hornby's proposed livery is correct for the locomotive (it is not, and has not been any time).

 

I will accept, rightly so, that you are right about the RTC description; however I must qualify that with increasing amounts of scepticism as I cannot believe that anyone in the United Kingdom would sell (for any price) a working steam locomotive just so that it can sit in a Museum in Los Angeles for all time.

 

If you turn out to be right on that point, you have my sincere apologies.

 

 

Looks like many things that you have difficulty believing may be true. I would just make two points; No one has proof positive, as far as I am aware, that the Locomotive is destined for the USA, it could be for the Harry Potter British theme park and anyway the loco. belongs (belonged?) to Mr Smith, proprietor of West Coast Railway Company  and as his property he and he alone has the final say on what he can do with his property!

[S.A.C Martin]

Looks like many things that you have difficulty believing may be true. I would just make two points; No one has proof positive, as far as I am aware, that the Locomotive is destined for the USA, it could be for the Harry Potter British theme park and anyway the loco. belongs (belonged?) to Mr Smith, proprietor of West Coast Railway Company  and as his property he and he alone has the final say on what he can do with his property!

 

 

 

I am happy to be proved wrong regarding Olton Hall, but will be sad and disappointed by Mr Smith's actions if they are true.

 

Unfortunately not many locomotive owners have the Alan Pegler or Sir William McAlpine way of thinking: that they are custodians of steam locomotives and preserving them for future generations to enjoy. I find the idea of selling a working locomotive, particularly an incredibly useful one such as a Hall, into a museum (whether abroad or here) dedicated to the film industry to be monstrously against the principle of saving the locomotive from Barry scrapyard in the first place.

 

A tragic waste and great shame if it is true.

[The Fatadder]

I assume the museum in question is the London Warner bros / Harry potter set experence given that universal studios have replicas in the states (with 2 new replicas recently finished for the Florida diagon alley expansion and an existing replica in hogsmead)

 

Presumably it's boiler ticket is due to expire and a couple of years dry storage plus some cash from Warner bros is better than sitting outside awaiting attention

 

No doubt once the attraction eventually closes it will return to a proper livery and get back on the rails

[darren01]

Hi

Very sad that she may spend the rest of her days in a museum, I hope that one day she maybe back running.

Darren

[Cy Lindercocks]

Hi

Very sad that she may spend the rest of her days in a museum, I hope that one day she maybe back running.

Darren

 

 

The general consensus is that she is going on display at Leavesden. My view is, that as we have several Halls in preservation, if putting this one on display at a popular tourist attraction visited by many "children of all ages" attracts more people into an interest in steam locomotives and their preservation then it will have achieved a very positive result for the movement.

 

May i also point out that, due to the width over cylinders on Ex Great Western Halls they have very restricted main line route availability.

[The Stationmaster]

The general consensus is that she is going on display at Leavesden. My view is, that as we have several Halls in preservation, if putting this one on display at a popular tourist attraction visited by many "children of all ages" attracts more people into an interest in steam locomotives and their preservation then it will have achieved a very positive result for the movement.

 

May i also point out that, due to the width over cylinders on Ex Great Western Halls they have very restricted main line route availability.

But they do nowadays seem to get about on various routes over which they were banned in the past!

 

As far as the future of the engine is concerned it seems pretty clear from one source that it will be sold to Warner Bros and as others have said that will hopefully means that if nothing else it will be kept in reasonable cosmetic condition instead of eventually languishing somewhere at Carnforth waiting for enough cash to be accumulated to carry out a major overhaul - vclearly the current owner thinks it more sensible to sell it than adopt whatever alternatives face him.

 

And there are of course plenty of other 'Hall's in preservation and also demanding funds to keep them in working order.

[Coach bogie]

 

May i also point out that, due to the width over cylinders on Ex Great Western Halls they have very restricted main line route availability.

 

No issues with cylinder width here on the East Coast. And witnessed 5972 several times working down the West Coast Main Line through Tring on its way to KGX for filming.

 

 

Opinion from friends involved in preservation is it has been sold to Warners for use in California departing after a final run from Carnforth to York in the summer. Time will tell.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[coachmann]

Hall and Castle passing Rhyl on the LNWR line from Chester to Holyhead. I think the first GW loco working occurred on the eve of privatisation in the 1990s although they were regulars as far as Mold Junction in steam days. Incidentally, a problem not encountered with diesel traction... You can have the sun on your side but not always the wind!

[Coach bogie]

As a teenager, I can recall all the platforms in the Manchester area being checked and altered as necessary prior to the Mark III coaches appearing. I assume this would have been carried out on a national basis, and I wonder if this opened the door for GWR 2 cylinder engines at the same time.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Stationmaster]

As a teenager, I can recall all the platforms in the Manchester area being checked and altered as necessary prior to the Mark III coaches appearing. I assume this would have been carried out on a national basis, and I wonder if this opened the door for GWR 2 cylinder engines at the same time.

 

Mike Wiltshire

I'm not sure on that one - 'Halls' were permitted over routes where at one time MkIIIs were barred or subject to special restrictions.

[The Black Hat]

I wonder what will happen first. That Olton Hall leaves for the states  works this Wizards Express tour, or if the Hornby model will arrive here before it does.

 

In any case, the reason the Hall was not used on the SSE is for gauge clearences at Castleford. Speed restrictions elsewhere are the main issue.

 

EDIT: changed as the engine isnt being sold.

[Hilux5972]

Where did you read that it's not being sold Black Hat?

[Cy Lindercocks]

Where did you read that it's not being sold Black Hat?

 

 

It appears that the Railway Touring company rather jumped the gun with their announcement, possibly the deal was embargoed, they have had to apologise and make corrections to their website. 

 

Should a long term loan or sale now go ahead is anyone's guess.