robmcg Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Simon Kohler's kindly dropped me an email with respect to this question with a cautionary note on interpreting GA drawings. He's actually supplied a detailed drawing that they're working from. Hhall_dwg.jpg I think Andy that even if in 4mm scale it is right sometimes it doesn't LOOK right. And if it doesn't look right, well, it just shows what a pack of no-hopers the model builders are. eh? sigh Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2013 A good few years ago the late Eric Mountford said to me that you should never trust a Swindon GA drawing, he reckoned the only drawings Swindon drawings which accurately showed what an as built engine looked like in detail were the Pipe Drawings (which had to be right because the pipework was made up from them). But on a cautionary note note Eric was of course a Caerphilly Works man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 A good few years ago the late Eric Mountford said to me that you should never trust a Swindon GA drawing, he reckoned the only drawings Swindon drawings which accurately showed what an as built engine looked like in detail were the Pipe Drawings (which had to be right because the pipework was made up from them). But on a cautionary note note Eric was of course a Caerphilly Works man Carefully does it the Mike! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Respect to Hornby for using a decent drawing - that GA, which is I think is the 1929 lot 254 one given in GWRJ#40, is a lot better than the weight diagram I posted, although I'm a bit perplexed at what seem to be the pencilled annotations accompanying some of the drawing's dimensions. I'll look forward to seeing those 5.5" wide slidebars... (that's a joke, btw, before anyone takes it too seriously) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2011/post-1-0-53723500-1294415519_thumb.jpg This Dapol loco also seems to have the steam pipes more vertical. Was there any difference then withing the Hall range? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I can't recall seeing a decent GA for the Modified Hall, but I think the angle of the steam pipe on a Modified is the same or at least very similar to an unmodified, the difference being that the axis of a Modified steam pipe is set more outboard compared to an unmodified. (Possibly the Modified steam pipe axis coincided with the cylinder axis.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 6, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 6, 2013 I can't recall seeing a decent GA for the Modified Hall, but I think the angle of the steam pipe on a Modified is the same or at least very similar to an unmodified, the difference being that the axis of a Modified steam pipe is set more outboard compared to an unmodified. (Possibly the Modified steam pipe axis coincided with the cylinder axis.) They definitely looked very different head-on, instantly recognisable at a distance as they approached although the plate frame bogie on the 'Modified' also probably made a difference(?). I think the angle itself was not too different but the point of entry into the smokebox was of course which gave the front end of the 'Modified' a 'heavier' appearance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froxfield2012 Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 They definitely looked very different head-on, instantly recognisable at a distance as they approached although the plate frame bogie on the 'Modified' also probably made a difference(?). I think the angle itself was not too different but the point of entry into the smokebox was of course which gave the front end of the 'Modified' a 'heavier' appearance. Not quite head on I'm afraid and from different sides, but more or less similar angles. I think it shows that the angle of the pipes was not too different and it seems to me that the saddle on which the smokebox rests is wider in the "Modified" and the pipes are set slightly wider giving the higher point of entry to the smokebox? Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I can't recall seeing a decent GA for the Modified Hall, .... You're doing better than me. I've never seen a GA for the Modified Hall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwell Hall Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 The moulded smokebox steam pipes and moulded handrails on the early sample of the Hornby 'Hall' are a major disapointment. One has only to look in the pages of the newly revamped BRM to see the difference between the lacklustre Hornby 'Duke of Gloucester' and what Bachmann are doing with the new '4F' - and even more so the LMS 10000 diesel - which is a spectacluar model. The 'Duke of Gloucester' could have been a superb model had it been made to the same standard as the 'Britania' of only a few years ago instead of which it is decidedly lacking. I reiterate that Hornby seem to reach a peak a year or two back with the superb LNER locos - the L1 tank and the B17 in particular - and it is such a shame that when they turn their attention to to some interesting GWR locomotives that have not previously been modeled they seem to have lost their way and produced second rate products. Perhaps Bachmann will take up the mantle and offer us a few more GWR types to their current standrds - as I have said before a 1000 'County' to the current standards would be very well recieved I am sure - I for one would certainly wish to pay more for a quality model and will not consider spending less on a lower spec. model.just so that I could have several of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Hornby would never have shifted to "design clever" if no one complained about prices. We would have actually had a super-detailed Duke, Hall, P2, 2BIL, 4wDM etc.... In a way customers were right to complain of prices, but judging by the prices the European models sell for which many are at the same standard as the Hornby Class 60 - then we shouldn't have complained. You complain about cost the answer would be to do something to reduce costs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 12, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2013 I haven't complained about prices - other than to reiterate a comment made by others about the rip-off prices being charged for some Railroad items which are being made with ancient tooling to lower overall standards but at high prices. If Hornby were to do a 'Hall' at comparable standard to their 'Grange' I would be at the head of the queue but as things look so far their loss is going to be Bachmann's gain. Hornby locos are, in general (and Railroad & Thomas ranges apart) not expensive for what they have been offering - yes prices have risen but not especially out of touch with wages until the last couple of years. Sometimes we have very little choice - I'm (just about) prepared to accept the various shortcomings on the GW 8-coupled tanks because there's no way I could build a kit to that standard of finish, and it would cost a lot more but I feel the ship was spoilt for a ha'porth of tar with them and that disappoints me; I would have happily accepted an extra £15-20 on the RRP to get those shortcomings dealt with 'as supplied' rather than having to set too myself (not that I won't enjoy that aspect). I still think Hornby will in some respects and in some parts of the market do themselves more harm than good with 'Design Clever' on locos but if they want to concentrate on the toy shop sector of the market that is their decision and theirs to live with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwell Hall Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 Mike You might well have a fight on your hands to be at the front of the queue for a top of the range 'Hall' to the standard of the 'Grange' or the 'B17' - sadly I don't think it's going happen! I do agree with you that Hornby may well live to regret the move to "design clever" and the lowering of standards. Just think - not long ago we were all hoping that Hornby would turn their attention ot GWR Collett 'bow ended' corridor stock soon - I'd rather they didn't bother now and come Christmas time will be much less interested to learn of future additions to their range. Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 "The future additions to their range" is something that may never get delivered - going by some of the delays faced by customers so far this year! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Hornby would never have shifted to "design clever" if no one complained about prices... They will have got there mainly by a 'state of the trade' discussion with their real customers, the retailers. If the shopkeeper cannot be convinced to order the required volume of goods at the proposed price point, then the supplier has to make an adjustment. As already posted, Hornby and the retailers have to live by their estimate of what the Hornby purchasing public will likely fork over for a given standard of goods. It's not set in stone forever either. As trading conditions change it is always possible that a more robust perception of customer price tolerance may develop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 12, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2013 They will have got there mainly by a 'state of the trade' discussion with their real customers, the retailers. If the shopkeeper cannot be convinced to order the required volume of goods at the proposed price point, then the supplier has to make an adjustment. As already posted, Hornby and the retailers have to live by their estimate of what the Hornby purchasing public will likely fork over for a given standard of goods. It's not set in stone forever either. As trading conditions change it is always possible that a more robust perception of customer price tolerance may develop. It's interesting to note that about 2 years ago one retailer told me that he was noticing a very strong 'price resistance' at the £100 mark for a loco - people simply weren't interested in paying above that figure, it was perceived as a big hurdle. But that was then and now prices above £100 seem relatively common and don't seem to be deterring sales - talking to a different retailer more recently he pointed out that what we are now paying for what we are getting is a far better bargain than we were enjoying 30-40 years ago. Plenty of locos now push above that £100 barrier that was there only a couple of years, or thereabouts, back and many people seem willing to go above that barrier provided they are getting what they perceive as their money's worth and I think that is probably the case in sales to modellers (but perhaps not in the 'toy shop' market sector?). Put simply I think if the manufacturers turn out what the customers want at a standard which merits the higher prices we are now seeing then things will sell, but volumes might drop a bit. If manufacturers want high volume then maybe selling it cheap and piling it high will work but it needs a big enough market to justify that approach and I still take the view that they are not looking at all the markets available to them if they do that. Time will of course tell which is right but today at a show I noticed some Hornby 42XX tanks on offer at £98.50 and they weren't jumping off the stall nor was there a queue of folk waiting to snap them up, meanwhile dealers haven't been able to get enough to satisfy their pre-orders at £10-£15 above that price - work than one out! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Anticipation first. Disappointment later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 As a recently active buyer and seller of Hornby and Bachmann models, a total of about 250 engine sales, here in NZ which may or may not reflect the English market, I have always found models of Western Region or GWR prototypes slowest to sell, in my case asking usually about 20% below box-shifters' prices. WR buyers seem more intent on buying on price, and they sell at maybe 40% below, or half shop retail. Too small a sample to draw any serious conclusions though. Fastest to sell are Britannias and A3s and A4s, Spamcans and MNs. Again, no conclusions drawn, just observing, from sales mostly in 2011 and 2012, but a few this year too. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2013 As a recently active buyer and seller of Hornby and Bachmann models, a total of about 250 engine sales, here in NZ which may or may not reflect the English market, I have always found models of Western Region or GWR prototypes slowest to sell, in my case asking usually about 20% below box-shifters' prices. WR buyers seem more intent on buying on price, and they sell at maybe 40% below, or half shop retail. Too small a sample to draw any serious conclusions though. Fastest to sell are Britannias and A3s and A4s, Spamcans and MNs. Again, no conclusions drawn, just observing, from sales mostly in 2011 and 2012, but a few this year too. Rob Interestingly SK has in the past expressed the view that Western locos don't sell - but I suspect that needs to be finessed as you try finding a (modern) Hornby 'Castle' in any BR period livery (although I did see one yesterday and it was the first for some time). Meanwhile many of the Bulleids - albeit produced in greater variety and numbers - litter stalls at shows etc. Similarly until recently it was relatively difficult to find some of the new GW tanks (my final two were collected this week, pre-ordered in January, hmm, last year) and I haven't seen any 28XX or 'Granges' for a long while although I haven't been looking for 28s so might have missed them of course. Equally r-t-r Western locos appearing at auction are relatively rarer compared with the other railways and mainly consist of older 'Castles' if what I see is any guide; the same goes for coaches such as Exleys and Lawrence or Goddard items. But then I live in and attend shows in Western territory so it might make a difference or maybe Western modellers hang on to stuff once they've got it? Are we tight fisted when it comes to prices - not really I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted October 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2013 Hornby had three different Hall models on their stand today and my relatively young eyes couldn't tell the difference between them apart from the tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Hornby had three different Hall models on their stand today and my relatively young eyes couldn't tell the difference between them apart from the tender. I wonder if the EP samples you saw were any different from the images posted earlier in this thread by me and a few others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted October 14, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2013 Have you any pics gwrrob? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Have you any pics gwrrob? Yea any pics gwrrob? Or did anyone manage to get a few? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted October 14, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2013 Hornby would never have shifted to "design clever" if no one complained about prices. We would have actually had a super-detailed Duke, Hall, P2, 2BIL, 4wDM etc.... In a way customers were right to complain of prices, but judging by the prices the European models sell for which many are at the same standard as the Hornby Class 60 - then we shouldn't have complained. You complain about cost the answer would be to do something to reduce costs. Whilst I agree with others who have posted that price is definately a factor, I do also wonder how much of design clever, and in that context what detail is now moulded rather than separately fitted, has been introduced to reflect the capabilities of the new factories Hornby is currently bringing on line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted October 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2013 Yea any pics gwrrob? Or did anyone manage to get a few? Guess who got on to the M40 and realised he'd forgotten his camera.Well annoyed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.