Hornby HST, HOW MUCH!

[BR(S)]

Not really needed - the current design of power car is perfectly capable of pulling an 8+2 train on its own.

 

Plus the same motors won't have equal running characteristics, as some people who have bought some recent Heljan offerings will testify to!

[Ian Hargrave]

Plus the same motors won't have equal running characteristics, as some people who have bought some recent Heljan offerings will testify to!

. ...and yet the Bachmann BP does have twin motors and no problems there!

[Ian Hargrave]

The Hornby HST power car and dummy will operate quite happily in either direction with a trailing load of 9 Mark 3's....even after re-equipping with Kadees

[darren01]

Hi

So have I got it wrong about the HST being sold for this price, is this a completely new, not retooled version of the HST they have been selling for years?

If it is a brand new HST OK ,But I still think this is over priced for what you get, Why do we keep defending Hornby with their crazy prices?.

And saying that continental models are more expensive then UK loco as an example is wrong , as they are not in the same ball park as Hornby.

The thing is that with such short runs on models it creating a feeding frenzy ,”If I don't buy it now I may not get one” so we will pay over the top prices for fear of never getting one.

I am sorry if some of you disagree with what I have said, But from a personal view I think the prices are going over the top now.

So would you be happy to pay over £150.00 for a model in the future, Don't you feel that you are getting ripped off?

Darren

[scorpion]

None of the Hornby HSTs are new, they can broadly be split into "original", "ex Lima" and the "good" one introduced, what, 4 years ago

 

the good one was I think £140 rrp when introduced so £200 now is not a massive increase

[valeofyork]

None of the Hornby HSTs are new, they can broadly be split into "original", "ex Lima" and the "good" one introduced, what, 4 years ago

 

the good one was I think £140 rrp when introduced so £200 now is not a massive increase

 

In most liveries, the latest style ones have been available for around the 100-120 quid mark from internet sellers.

[andyman7]

But I still think this is over priced for what you get, Why do we keep defending Hornby with their crazy prices?.

 

There is plenty of room for legitimate debate, but many of the comments are to correct erroneous assumptions e.g suggesting that the price of a Bachmann Blue Pullman is £200 when it is listed at £350. The £200 quoted is list price, so it is only fair to compare that to other list prices. There are a lot of Bachmann CEPs etc effectively being remaindered at the moment - they are great value but please remember that a) the LIST price is £170 not £69 or whatever your local bargain bin is selling them at; and b) once they are sold out you can be sure that new production will not be sold at £69! 

[Mike70]

I quite fancy a BR blue HST.  But I'm not sure if I should leap straight in or wait and see if the price drops a bit from £160 (typical internet price).

 

The Grand Central version is still available from Hattons for £106.

 

I realise the BR blue version will be more popular than the Grand Central version.

But at the same time you have to consider that a lot of people will have bought the BR blue version the first time it was released.

 

I wonder if this is one of the reasons the release date keeps going back.

Perhaps there are not enough pre-orders to trigger a production run?

 

The availability and quality of the coaches doesn't help either.

If I'm going to buy the engine, I'd like to buy it in the confidence I can buy the matching coaches to an equal standard.

The relatively poor quality of the coaches has already been discussed in this thread.

 

Based on current internet prices for locos, say £90 to £100 for a diesel and £30 to £40 for a good quality coach, £160 for a HST power car and dummy might be a bit steep.

But with the current state of affairs, I think we have to accept that prices will ultimatley go up.

 

Mike.

[7013]

My mistake I should have wrote £300 not £200. However I stand by my original posting. This HST was introduced 4 years ago if posting #32 is correct. I do feel that an RRP of £200 for a power car and what is effectively a coach is expensive. However if people think that is reasonable then that is up to them. I am going to pay £200 -£1 for a Beyer-Garratt some people may think that is a waste of money, it all depends on how badly you want a model.

[scorpion]

If you want it, buy it, if the deal doesn't appeal to you then don't

 

No one is being ripped off, no one is being forced to buy

 

There's more choice and more quality than ever before, you pays your money an takes your choice

[Andy Hayter]

Hi

So have I got it wrong about the HST being sold for this price, is this a completely new, not retooled version of the HST they have been selling for years?

If it is a brand new HST OK ,But I still think this is over priced for what you get, Why do we keep defending Hornby with their crazy prices?.

And saying that continental models are more expensive then UK loco as an example is wrong , as they are not in the same ball park as Hornby.

The thing is that with such short runs on models it creating a feeding frenzy ,”If I don't buy it now I may not get one” so we will pay over the top prices for fear of never getting one.

I am sorry if some of you disagree with what I have said, But from a personal view I think the prices are going over the top now.

So would you be happy to pay over £150.00 for a model in the future, Don't you feel that you are getting ripped off?

Darren

Sorry Darren but you are wrong and I suggest you read the where are the Hornby models thread.

 

I will give you this simple example:

Hornby Jouef X 72500 - 2 car unit - French price 299€ - say £250.

Same production company - Hornby - same (scarce) production slots as your HST 2 car unit. 

 

It is the very real comparison.  Given one production slot for Hornby, do they make an HST at your desired price (I am guessing just over £100) or the Hornby Jouef X72500 - selling like anything and generating twice or more the profit.

 

Even the other makes and gauges, which are dismissed as being BMWs versus Fords misses the point that with production of models limited across the international board, the ones that give the manufacturers in China the biggest profit are the ones that will win.  The others do not get made - end of story.

 

So if you want an HST then pay up, because this is the price of the production slot in China.

[newbryford]

Sorry Darren but you are wrong and I suggest you read the where are the Hornby models thread.

 

I will give you this simple example:

Hornby Jouef X 72500 - 2 car unit - French price 299€ - say £250.

Same production company - Hornby - same (scarce) production slots as your HST 2 car unit. 

 

It is the very real comparison.  Given one production slot for Hornby, do they make an HST at your desired price (I am guessing just over £100) or the Hornby Jouef X72500 - selling like anything and generating twice or more the profit.

 

 

 

But it only generates twice the profit if it sells in the same quantity. If it sells half as many as the HST, then the bottom line profit is still the same.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[7013]

Except Andy the general quality of Jouef, is a great deal better than what is generally available here. It is not really comparing like with like because the only common denominator is that Hornby owns the company, however Jouef quality was much better than current Hornby offerings long before Hornby bought them, hence the higher prices. But I do agree given Hornby's current predicament they are going to try to maximise profit.

[valeofyork]

I quite fancy a BR blue HST.  But I'm not sure if I should leap straight in or wait and see if the price drops a bit from £160 (typical internet price).

 

The Grand Central version is still available from Hattons for £106.

 

I realise the BR blue version will be more popular than the Grand Central version.

But at the same time you have to consider that a lot of people will have bought the BR blue version the first time it was released.

 

I wonder if this is one of the reasons the release date keeps going back.

Perhaps there are not enough pre-orders to trigger a production run?

 

The availability and quality of the coaches doesn't help either.

If I'm going to buy the engine, I'd like to buy it in the confidence I can buy the matching coaches to an equal standard.

The relatively poor quality of the coaches has already been discussed in this thread.

 

Based on current internet prices for locos, say £90 to £100 for a diesel and £30 to £40 for a good quality coach, £160 for a HST power car and dummy might be a bit steep.

But with the current state of affairs, I think we have to accept that prices will ultimatley go up.

 

Mike.

 

The Grand Central one was perhaps not Hornby's best idea - the total fleet consists of a grand total of three sets, which work a single route (London-York-Northallerton-Sunderland). Plus the livery wasn't correct (logos are wrong), and the livery has been changed anyway since the models were released. The buffers on the power cars also make them of limited use for repaints as only eight power cars have buffers (and six of these are with Grand Central).

 

As regards the coaches, yes, availability is a problem as well as the standard of them. With the recent liveries the coaches have been released round about the same time as the power cars, but with the older liveries they haven't done that in most cases.

[Andy Hayter]

But it only generates twice the profit if it sells in the same quantity. If it sells half as many as the HST, then the bottom line profit is still the same.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

 

They seem to be selling everything they can make.

In all probability these will be out of stock before Christmas at most major shops - rather quicker than the 2BIL in the end.

 

If there were unlimited production slots I would agree, but the world industry is tight on production slots.  So the question is not what will sell the most, but what will create the largest profit per unit.

 

There is a simple rule of marketing (which many marketing managers even do not understand): 

when the market is short (not enough production) make the things that create the biggest unit profit.

when the market is long (you can make more than you can sell) concentrate on the high volume, low cost items. 

['CHARD]

I have fooled myself into thinking that soon I'll wake up and this topic will all have been a dream...

[Andy Hayter]

Except Andy the general quality of Jouef, is a great deal better than what is generally available here. It is not really comparing like with like because the only common denominator is that Hornby owns the company, however Jouef quality was much better than current Hornby offerings long before Hornby bought them

We are either living in parallel universes or looking at very different timescales.

When they started Jouef/Playcraft was cheap cheap cheap - and it showed - with detail quality somewhere below a rough Triang model.  In the early 80s they go bust.

Wind forward into the late 80s and they are producing models equivalent to Lima.  Some nice, some not so nice but generally mechanisms and wheels (especially flanges) that are a throw back to their origins.  At the same time I remember Airfix and Mainline producing some scintillating models (for their time).

1990s - some improvement to the mechanisms and wheel standard but they still go bust again.

The Rivarossi (including Lima) group then take over but frankly, despite some nice tries, quality does not improve dramatically - still stuck around the Lima mark.

Rivarossi group then goes bust and is taken over by Hornby.  This is the point at which the quality of Jouef (and the other marques) starts to kick off.  Better attention to detail, better drive mechanisms, more accuracy etc.  Of course with the usual exceptions and brick bats from the serious modeller.  (incidentally Rivarossi's previous  reputation with German modellers was about rated the same as Lima in the UK). 

Today, is Jouef offering better quality that Hornby UK?  I am not convinced.  The models may be a little more complex - but only a little.  Wheel standards and motors - the same.

Glazing - the same

Detail levels - to me the same, but with perhaps on older prototypes a little more to add on.  The X 72500 is less than 10 years old and shares much with much UK modern stock.  Where is the extra detail, the better standard?

[andyman7]

I have fooled myself into thinking that soon I'll wake up and this topic will all have been a dream...

....and Hornby's full 2013 range is in all the shops (with Hattons selling at 50% discount) 

[Legend]

While generally agreeing you can't compare list prices with those offered by the big box shifters, what you need to consider is that Hornby are pressing their direct selling approach at full price. This does actually mean that sometimes the only way to get the model is direct from Hornby , or their outlets, at full price compared to Bachmann which are offered throughout the model railway shop network, often at discount.

 

As to £200 for the new HST, Hornby think they are adept at pricing to maximise their revenue ie they know there is a demand for it and have priced accordingly. They have overpriced their models in the past and I think they've done so again. The solutions easy........just don't buy it and wait for price to come down

[Gwiwer]

In my earlier posts I was careful to try and present a level playing field by quoting list prices across the board.  

 

Yes there are items out there such as the Bachmann CEP units offering 4 coaches for slightly under £200.   But in my opinion the OP assertion was misleading (at the least) in implying that the £200 power + dummy offering of Hornby HST vehicles was the same as the "Lima-style" of years ago.

 

 

The list price is in my view not out of the ball-park for what is offered but is certainly at the top end of the price range.  Is that an own-goal by Hornby?  Time will tell.  If the power cars sell in sufficient numbers then they will no doubt be happy at Margate.

 

I looked out the box for my Lima-style Merlin-livery set (power + dummy + 2 coaches) which carriers a retailers' price ticket of £80.  That was perhaps 25 years ago.  The power + dummy (no coaches) IC-livery pack cost IIRC around £120 (UK price - I actually paid the non-EU zero-VAT price) much more recently.  If I were shopping today I would expect to see the same set listed at £150 or more.  

[Waverley West]

Unless they just want to have yet another go at how evil Hornby is, I don't understand why people compare the RRP of a Hornby product with a discounted retailers price of a Bachmann product.

 

Yes, you can pre-order a Bachmann 158 for £110, though the RRP is £130 (actually £129.95, according to Bachmann's website).

 

The RRP of Hornby's HST is £200, but the first etailer I looked at was offering it at £160.

 

Yep, the HST is still more. But at least we can now do a fair and reasonable comparison of similarly-flavoured products.

 

Paul

 

I don't think the tone of my post was another go at how "evil" Hornby is in any way shape or form. 

 

Yes, perhaps I should have compared RRP with RRP or whatever, but the difference is so great anyway, it hardly matters. Another post had mentioned the discounted price of 2 x HST PCs as £175. That's still some difference. 

[ThaneofFife]

You will probably be waiting a long time! The Mk3s are pretty crap generally, to be honest - not just the interiors.

well yes and no.  they arent terrible models by a long straw its just that it really does seem to be about time Hornby refreshed or retooled them to bring them up the current standards.  I think they had a refresh a few years back with flusher glazing and perhaps new bogies wheels and couplings but Bachmanns aircon Mk2f's are due to have detailed interiors and the option of DCC lighting functions probably along the same lines/standards as the BP.  Will we see new Mk3s to these standards?  Hornby really ought to have addressed this in conjunction with the new power cars for the HST.  Youve got the latest spec PCs running with old spec trailers.

Also there also the perennial issue of a lacl of RTR loco hauled versions too.

[frobisher]

. ...and yet the Bachmann BP does have twin motors and no problems there!

The big difference is that the BP has a close coupling system throughout based on rigid bars which lend themselves better to a twin motor setup than a series of bogie mounted tension lock couplers.

[The Bigbee Line]

This all seems very emotive, as previously stated 'you pay your money, if you want'.

 

I may think something's expensive, but decide to buy it.  If you use a ball park £50 an hour to make a model they work out very cheap, ie I couldn't make one including material for £200 in 4 hours.

 

With an HST set it the thought of getting 'half' the set and not being able to complete.  I wish all 'set trains' Brighton Belle, Blue Pullman etc all came as complete sets.

[rprodgers]

Slightly off topic but a few years ago I bought the latest PC's in Intercity Swallow livery and very nice they are.

 

Like many folk I struggled to purchase matching coaches....managed to get 3

 

Were there any SOs produced in this livery and where would I find the correct Hornby  ref numbers ?

 

All very confusion as to what are the "full length" MK3s compared to the earlier productions when looking online for them second hand.

Thanks