Hornby HST, HOW MUCH!

[James]

is this a completely new, not retooled version

And this is part of the problem.

 

Do people understand what retooled means? To me (with an engineering background) it means that new tools have been made. Often people use the term 'retooled' without understanding what it means - a few modifications are made and people say 'retooled' when they actually mean the existing tooling has been modified.

 

It's no wonder that there's confusion with some consumers.

[BR(S)]

Slightly off topic but a few years ago I bought the latest PC's in Intercity Swallow livery and very nice they are.

 

Like many folk I struggled to purchase matching coaches....managed to get 3

 

Were there any SOs produced in this livery and where would I find the correct Hornby  ref numbers ?

 

All very confusion as to what are the "full length" MK3s compared to the earlier productions when looking online for them second hand.

Thanks

 

For Swallow livery SO coaches, you'll need R4295 and R4295A for the latest version of the Mark 3, e.g. http://www.ehattons.com/Trade/StockDetail.aspx?SID=20782 and http://www.ehattons.com/23057/Hornby_R4295A_Mk3_BR_Intercity_Swallow_Swift_livery_open_tourist_coach/StockDetail.aspx

 

These sold well and I don't think there are many left outside of eBay, where they go for around £40-£45.

 

Note that these are not numbered for HST sets but for WCML sets, although they don't have buffers, which is correct for HSTs.  Someone else may be able to advise if any HST numbered ones were released.

[valeofyork]

All very confusion as to what are the "full length" MK3s compared to the earlier productions when looking online for them second hand.

Thanks

 

The first type of Mk3 were shorter than scale length (presumably to allow them to go round tighter curves?), and they really weren't very good for various reasons.

 

The full length ones were introduced subsequently - not sure of the exact year, but I believe the GW Merlin liveried HST was the first use of them, and they were subsequently used for all other liveries produced.

 

Hornby never produced a TGS, and updated the Lima tooling (flush glazing, etc) and used that after acquiring Lima, hence the TGS is noticeably different from the other current Mk3s (for some strange reason it has moulded-on buffers, when it shouldn't have buffers at all!). More recently again, they modified the Lima 3-windows buffet to make a 4-window buffet (Hornby already had their own tooling for a 3-window buffet), hence the 4-window buffet can also be seen to be slightly different to the other Hornby Mk3s.

[7013]

Yes Andy # 45 there is much in what you say that is correct, but we are not talking ages ago are we. We are discussing today's models, and the Jouef offerings I have seen in my local shop are better detailed and specified than the HST. However I appreciate that modellers have different opinions on manufacturers, and whilst Jouef are not among the best Europe has to offer I would rate them above Hornby, my opinion only.

[stewartingram]

well yes and no.  they arent terrible models by a long straw its just that it really does seem to be about time Hornby refreshed or retooled them to bring them up the current standards.  I think they had a refresh a few years back with flusher glazing and perhaps new bogies wheels and couplings but Bachmanns aircon Mk2f's are due to have detailed interiors and the option of DCC lighting functions probably along the same lines/standards as the BP.  Will we see new Mk3s to these standards?  Hornby really ought to have addressed this in conjunction with the new power cars for the HST.  Youve got the latest spec PCs running with old spec trailers.

Also there also the perennial issue of a lacl of RTR loco hauled versions too.

But you are missing the point! New Mk3 coaches means R&D investment. Hornby manage to sell the old Mk3 - where R&D is already paid off, and cost of production is the only cost - so why spend £100k's on new tooling to reach the same sales figure (and thus less profit)? Well done Hornby I say.

 

Stewart

[valeofyork]

But you are missing the point! New Mk3 coaches means R&D investment. Hornby manage to sell the old Mk3 - where R&D is already paid off, and cost of production is the only cost - so why spend £100k's on new tooling to reach the same sales figure (and thus less profit)? Well done Hornby I say.

 

Stewart

 

So do you think all development ought to stop on the basis of "well, people buy the existing ones so why bother"?

 

As the sales of the HST power cars have shown, lots of people who already no doubt have HSTs will buy them because they are better. The same will apply to Mk3s, and with 7 to 9 coach rakes that's a lot of sales assuming there are enough HST fans out there (and I think there are) who will be prepared to splash out the sort of money this will entail. They will already have existing Mk3s, so aren't going to be buying any more in the liveries they have unless improved ones are available.

['CHARD]

As the sales of the HST power cars have shown, lots of people who already no doubt have HSTs will buy them because they are better. The same will apply to Mk3s, and with 7 to 9 coach rakes that's a lot of sales assuming there are enough HST fans out there (and I think there are) who will be prepared to splash out the sort of money this will entail. They will already have existing Mk3s, 

 

VoY, just a few thoughts here:

 

• I'm playing the RM card aka 'For the Average Modeller' - how many of us even on RMWeb can run prototypical length HST rakes?
• casual modellers may not be interested in full length HST rakes, they possibly don't even know what would be such a rake.
• Buyers of HST PCs 'no doubt' already have HSTs - on what basis do we make this assumption?  Plenty of people on here would seemingly rather retain kit-built or self-detailed models rather than splash out again (on a rerelease that is considered by many contributors to be too pricey), based on similar debates on other upgraded releases
• The demographics of the Blue & Grey HST buying population would be interesting to know, and by 'buying population' I mean those with the disposable income and decision-making capability, not a wishlist for mum and dad.  
• Plenty of modellers of that era who were active enthusiasts and linesiders in that period hated the HSTs with a vengeance, and have only recently warmed to them.

[James]

So do you think all development ought to stop on the basis of "well, people buy the existing ones so why bother"?

If enough customers are happy, then why not? Why reduce profits?

 

Many people may see the 'new' version and think, well the ones I have look fine and the new ones aren't so much better to warrant spending a lot of money.

[stewartingram]

So do you think all development ought to stop on the basis of "well, people buy the existing ones so why bother"?

 

As the sales of the HST power cars have shown, lots of people who already no doubt have HSTs will buy them because they are better. The same will apply to Mk3s, and with 7 to 9 coach rakes that's a lot of sales assuming there are enough HST fans out there (and I think there are) who will be prepared to splash out the sort of money this will entail. They will already have existing Mk3s, so aren't going to be buying any more in the liveries they have unless improved ones are available.

So do you think all development ought to stop on the basis of "well, people buy the existing ones so why bother"?

 

 

Actually YES! Hornby are not producing toy trains just for us. They are a supplier of goods, with bought-in manufacturing and design costs. Their bottom line is - wait for it - profit for the shareholders. Spending money on unneccessary R&D when an existing product sells well is NOT sensible business practice. Only if it generates (much )more income to justify its expenditure is it worthwhile. Sorry, but plain business sense

 

Stewart

[stovepipe]

All very confusion as to what are the "full length" MK3s compared to the earlier productions when looking online for them second hand.

Thanks

 

Early ones are 266mm long with 7 windows initially, and then 8 windows later on. Almost all with 3-figure R numbers.

 

The correct length ones are 305mm have 8 windows, all with 4-figure R numbers. These were made from 1999 or thereabouts in various liveries.

 

Any Hornby TGS will be the correct length, but as someone else said from the Lima tooling originally. Lima Mk3 coaches were the correct length to start with 1979 onwards.

[valeofyork]

So do you think all development ought to stop on the basis of "well, people buy the existing ones so why bother"?

 

 

Actually YES! Hornby are not producing toy trains just for us. They are a supplier of goods, with bought-in manufacturing and design costs. Their bottom line is - wait for it - profit for the shareholders. Spending money on unneccessary R&D when an existing product sells well is NOT sensible business practice. Only if it generates (much )more income to justify its expenditure is it worthwhile. Sorry, but plain business sense

 

Stewart

 

Well, it depends on your target market, doesn't it? If it's the toy train market exclusively then yes, this might work. However, if it's more the sort of people who read this forum then you will reach a point there your sales drop off, as they won't replace the ones they already have unless there is a better model available (and yes, some still won't replace what they already have - but a proportion will).

 

Look at smartphones - why do they bring out a new model nearly the same as the old one every year or so? Because they need to persuade people to replace what they already have!

 

As you say, plain business sense!

[valeofyork]

 

Buyers of HST PCs 'no doubt' already have HSTs - on what basis do we make this assumption?  Plenty of people on here would seemingly rather retain kit-built or self-detailed models rather than splash out again (on a rerelease that is considered by many contributors to be too pricey), based on similar debates on other upgraded releases

• The demographics of the Blue & Grey HST buying population would be interesting to know, and by 'buying population' I mean those with the disposable income and decision-making capability, not a wishlist for mum and dad.  

 

Just watch Ebay when new power cars are released in an older livery - you will see a glut of old ones appearing but no carriages. This was particularly noticeable when the blue and grey, swallow, Virgin and GNER ones were first released.

 

As regard the demographic, well, people modelling the BR blue era I would assume. Plus the BR liveries have the advantage that they are going to be correct for any part of the country where HSTs operated, which obviously isn't the case for the privatisation liveries.

[James]

I think Smartphones (the technology market) is quite a different prospect when compared with executive toys...

[valeofyork]

I think Smartphones (the technology market) is quite a different prospect when compared with executive toys...

 

Not really - it's still a case of persuading somebody to replace something which does everything they need it to do with a newer model. Same could be said of model trains.

 

It's how the consumerist market works.

[valeofyork]

my bold

 

 

BINGO!

You just worked out what demographic group it is that actually buy probably 80% of the goods Hornby produce

 

You got a source for that 80% figure?

 

Certainly, I can't see the trainset market being the customers for many individual locos - particularly diesels. Pendolinos, yes, but HSTs? Probably not (as they aren't released in a pack with track, carriages, etc).

 

The point is that it's two separate markets. If Hornby want to continue to operate in both (and it appears that they do), they need to up their game in the higher-end market: yes, they can produce excellent models, but they don't always finish the job (Mk3s), and they aren't consistent.

[Removed a/c]

It is all hearsay but there was a lot of discussion when the new MK2s were announced by Bachmann that a lot of people would be dropping their Hornby MK2s in favour of them (time will tell when they are released). I suppose the same could be true if a new MK3 was introduced.

 

I do not mind the MK3s (wish they were NEM though and more readily available). 

[Roy P]

 

 

Look at smartphones - why do they bring out a new model nearly the same as the old one every year or so? 

 

I successfully upgraded my old smartphone into something better than the new ones using bits I found lying around.

RP

[newbryford]

 

 

Look at smartphones - why do they bring out a new model nearly the same as the old one every year or so? Because they need to persuade people to replace what they already have!

 

 

 

There's no comparison.

Not only is the target market different, the market sizes are also vastly different. I wonder how many people own a phone and how many people play model trains?  By 2017, it's estimated that there will be more mobile phones than people in the world.

That alone will have a direct impact on the funds available for product development/R&D/advertising. It's rumoured that Apple are worth 3x the US Federal Government!

 

Phones are different, there's new apps, features, more memory, better camera etc, etc. every year or so. It is a NEW model, it looks different, it feels different. It isn't simply a better version of an old model of a Class XX. The phone manufacturers aren't trying to improve a model of a prototype - they can do what they want and not get criticised for a rivet being missed off.

There is also far more competition in terms of phone manufacturers all trying to get the biggest share of what is a huge sales base. Not a "big two" with a few other smaller players.

 

Peer pressure to have the latest model with the latest gimmicks - would you sell the old one and buy the latest HST because your mate has one?

 

I'll give an example. If any manufacturer were to bring out an improved 66, I certainly wouldn't be selling my 10 or so overnight just to upgrade. I'm already pretty happy with them, but would probably buy the newer model as and when I require another 66. Same goes for my HST/Mk3 collection. And I doubt I'll suddenly decide to remodel my yellow stuff with new Bachy aircon Mk2's.

 

No doubt there will be exceptions as the upgrades I'll likely be doing will be as a direct result of me modelling the contemporary era and trying to keep reasonably up to date. For those modelling a specific period, then I reckon they're even less likely to upgrade.

Cheers,

Mick

[James]

Not really - it's still a case of persuading somebody to replace something which does everything they need it to do with a newer model.

That's a general guide for a consumer product, but...

 

Same could be said of model trains.

No it couldn't.

 

With smartphones as an example, a phone is now something people have with them all the time - it's how you keep in touch with everything, check e-mails, Facebook, Twitter, watch telly on it, all sorts of things. ANd it's there concatntly and that's how the market can persuade people to spend silly sums on phones.

 

A Mark 3 coach is hardly the same - 'This one looks much like the old one but look, you can update your Facebook status on it!' Doubt that would work...

[newbryford]

 

No it couldn't.

 

With smartphones as an example, a phone is now something people have with them all the time - it's how you keep in touch with everything, check e-mails, Facebook, Twitter, watch telly on it, all sorts of things. ANd it's there concatntly and that's how the market can persuade people to spend silly sums on phones.

 

A Mark 3 coach is hardly the same - 'This one looks much like the old one but look, you can update your Facebook status on it!' Doubt that would work...

 

It's reckoned that a person on average will check their phone 50 times per day. I reckon I check my Mk3's about 5 times per year

 

Cheers,

Mick

[newbryford]

I mis-read that as "chuck"...which with the model I have would be far more appropriate a term

 

I presume you mean your phone and not a Hornby Mk3?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[valeofyork]

There's no comparison.

 

It is certainly not a direct comparison, but there is definitely a comparison to be made - as with any other consumer objects.

 

However, there's clearly no point in debating further with someone displaying such a high level of dogmatic arrogance as yourself - yes, you have a point to a degree, but not to the absolute level which you clearly (from your postings) think you have.

[newbryford]

 

However, there's clearly no point in debating further with someone displaying such a high level of dogmatic arrogance as yourself - yes, you have a point to a degree, but not to the absolute level which you clearly (from your postings) think you have.

 

Apologies for the OT.

 

Apparently dogmatic can mean "narrow minded". For those that know me, the only narrow thing on my mind is 00 gauge...........

 

Getting slightly back on topic - what exactly is wrong with the Hornby Mk3 and how would you improve it?

 

Cheers,

Mick

p.s. I'm more of a cat person...........

Edit: p.p.s. Actually, I am dogmatic when it comes to my opinions on BR Blue. There probably are other things as well, but hey, it's late, it's Friday.

['CHARD]

It is certainly not a direct comparison, but there is definitely a comparison to be made - as with any other consumer objects.

 

Well, logically yes, but the majority of comparisons will be meaningless.  You need to find an object that is an example of non-essential, discretionary expenditure that becomes obsolete for other reasons than wear and tear.  There are precious few.

[7013]

Looks like this thread has run its course judging by the last few postings.