Prototype for everything corner.

[Guest 40-something]

Vulcan_Nose_29.09.84.jpg

 

Hi Pat, sorry for the delay in posting this, it took me ages to find the slide.

My records show this to be taken from 45149 on 1E27, the 10:40 Poole to Newcastle train which I took from Sheffield to Leeds where 47423 took over to York.

This was on Saturday 29th September 1984, so that tallies in with what you thought.

I seem to remember a number of 76's getting scrapped here too.

That looks like my workbench!

[melmerby]

Thursday's working was a pair of 20's at each end and, as you say, a pair of TEA type tanks - again at 'each' end.

 

Rgds,

Are the tanks full?

e.g. ballasted to 100 tonnes with water would provide lots of brake force.

 

Keith

[Wild Boar Fell]

Believe they are empty, seem to remember a photo of one with holes in it...

[PatB]

Vulcan_Nose_29.09.84.jpg

 

Hi Pat, sorry for the delay in posting this, it took me ages to find the slide.

My records show this to be taken from 45149 on 1E27, the 10:40 Poole to Newcastle train which I took from Sheffield to Leeds where 47423 took over to York.

This was on Saturday 29th September 1984, so that tallies in with what you thought.

I seem to remember a number of 76's getting scrapped here too.

 

Yep, I think that's the one, although I can't for the life of me remember what the surroundings looked like. I'd have first seen it in Feb 85, based on my rail using history, so not long after your excellent photo was taken. I can't imagine there were that many .

[big jim]

Believe they are empty, seem to remember a photo of one with holes in it...

No hatch covers on them either

[Arun Sharma]

Vulcan_Nose_29.09.84.jpg

 

Hi Pat, sorry for the delay in posting this, it took me ages to find the slide.

My records show this to be taken from 45149 on 1E27, the 10:40 Poole to Newcastle train which I took from Sheffield to Leeds where 47423 took over to York.

This was on Saturday 29th September 1984, so that tallies in with what you thought.

I seem to remember a number of 76's getting scrapped here too.

Interestingly on the extreme RHS of the picture, half way up there looks to be the front half of an LT R49 surface stock car [distinctive double-width windows compared to the earlier R38 stock]. I thought that these were all scrapped at Booth's yard at Rotherham so would 1E27 have taken a more scenic and roundabout route between Sheffield and Leeds on Sundays Saturdays than normal?

Edited July 20, 2017 by ted675

[46011]

Interestingly on the extreme RHS of the picture, half way up there looks to be the front half of an LT R49 surface stock car [distinctive double-width windows compared to the earlier R38 stock]. I thought that these were all scrapped at Booth's yard at Rotherham so would 1E27 have taken a more scenic and roundabout route between Sheffield and Leeds on Sundays Saturdays than normal?

 

 

Hi Ted,

I've rescanned the slide and this is right up to the edge.

It's the only shot I took so I don't have any other views.

[Arun Sharma]

I think that is an R49 car. Further evidence is the wedge-shaped glass cowlings over its windows. Interestingly in front of it there looks to be an upside down motor bogie with its shoebeam still in place. The colour of the car is intriguing - by the time of withdrawal, all were either repainted silvery-white or left in natural aluminium finish. As they would probably have contained asbestos, that would possibly explain why it has that scorched appearance.

My copy of "Diesels & Electrics for Scrap" [Atlantic Press 1987] confirms that the same yard also bought  the majority of the class 76xxx electrics.

I imagine that pretty much confirms that it is Booths yard at Rotherham though I don't know its exact location in relation to the railway lines around the Sheffield-Rotherham area.

[melmerby]

I imagine that pretty much confirms that it is Booths yard at Rotherham though I don't know its exact location in relation to the railway lines around the Sheffield-Rotherham area.

Google Earth:

Main site

https://goo.gl/maps/AusLNQ5nbvJ2

 

 

Some Railway scrap

https://goo.gl/maps/vZZqGJUEbd72

 

Keith

Edited July 20, 2017 by melmerby

[leopardml2341]

Vulcan_Nose_29.09.84_Edit.jpg

 

Hi Ted,

I've rescanned the slide and this is right up to the edge.

It's the only shot I took so I don't have any other views.

I think that is an R49 car. Further evidence is the wedge-shaped glass cowlings over its windows. Interestingly in front of it there looks to be an upside down motor bogie with its shoebeam still in place. The colour of the car is intriguing - by the time of withdrawal, all were either repainted silvery-white or left in natural aluminium finish. As they would probably have contained asbestos, that would possibly explain why it has that scorched appearance.

My copy of "Diesels & Electrics for Scrap" [Atlantic Press 1987] confirms that the same yard also bought the majority of the class 76xxx electrics.

I imagine that pretty much confirms that it is Booths yard at Rotherham though I don't know its exact location in relation to the railway lines around the Sheffield-Rotherham area.

It could equally, perhaps more likely, be a CO/CP stock vehicle.

I have a window with a 'No Smoking' roundel from one of them in my train room, obtained with permission, but at no cost, from said scrap dealer.

Edited July 21, 2017 by leopardml2341

[leopardml2341]

Believe they are empty, seem to remember a photo of one with holes in it...

No hatch covers on them either

Also stencilled to run without hatch covers, pic later if I can find it!

 

Edit:

 

Not a chance, deleted it in error!

[Arun Sharma]

It could equally, perhaps more likely, be a CO/CP stock vehicle.

I have a window with a 'No Smoking' roundel from one of them in my train room, obtained with permission, but at no cost, from said scrap dealer.

No I don't think so - Although the basic body shell appearance [but not the metal from which they were constructed] was the same between the Q38, CO/CP and R38/49/59 stocks, the all-aluminium R49 [and the small no. of R59] cars had only half the number of windows but the windows were twice as wide as those on their earlier brethren which made them very easily recognisable.

Edited July 21, 2017 by ted675

[Phil Mc]

Also stencilled to run without hatch covers, pic later if I can find it!

 

Edit:

 

Not a chance, deleted it in error!

 

Cheers,

Phil.

[melmerby]

So what is the reasoning behind the use of an old tank wagon as a barrier vehicle?

Weight empty is 28.5 t which isn't going to give a lot of extra brake force at just over 7t mass per axle.

I would have thought something more massive.

 

keith

[28XX]

You could fill it with water to add weight?

[Phil Mc]

So what is the reasoning behind the use of an old tank wagon as a barrier vehicle?

Weight empty is 28.5 t which isn't going to give a lot of extra brake force at just over 7t mass per axle.

I would have thought something more massive.

 

keith

Used as a coupling adaptor, standard drawgear at one end, coupling compatible with the stock being moved at the other.

 

Cheers,

Phil.

[leopardml2341]

No I don't think so - Although the basic body shell appearance [but not the metal from which they were constructed] was the same between the Q38, CO/CP and R38/49/59 stocks, the all-aluminium R49 [and the small no. of R59] cars had only half the number of windows but the windows were twice as wide as those on their earlier brethren which made them very easily recognisable.

I was making my supposition from the colour of the vehicle, which looks as though it has been 'fired' IIRC aluminium takes on a different colour to that in the pic, thus inferring it being steel.

 

Also the distance between the end window and door is more akin to CO/CP stock (3rd vehicle in this consist):

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=tablet-android-pega&biw=960&bih=600&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=Pv1yWZKLLIPFgAaqlp2IBA&sjs=1&q=co%2Fcp+stock+trains&oq=co%2Fcp+stock+trains&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.12...30253.37153.0.37940.8.8.0.0.0.0.139.773.6j2.8.0....0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-img..0.3.309...30i10k1j0i7i30k1.DKJiLGuGgHk#imgrc=MP4g-TZgpBqDfM:

 

Versus the window/door position in this R stock pic:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=r+stock+trains&client=tablet-android-pega&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih2MXrrZzVAhVLIcAKHc71CAgQ_AUICSgB&biw=960&bih=600#imgrc=4catciOxH-Nx5M:

Edited July 22, 2017 by leopardml2341

[sir douglas]

it looks like some are mistaking barrier wagon for brake tender, a barrier wagon isnt there to provide extra braking its to create distance between the train and the loco for what ever reason such as a common one is that if your shunting wagons into a siding but the loco isnt allowed into it you need an extra wagon but IIRC thats called a reach wagon but a barrier is to keep the loco away from the train 

[leopardml2341]

To clear up the questions about the role of the tank wagons used on 'S' stock movements:

 

The class 20(s) train brake pipe is connected to the two tank wagons at the head of the consist; it is run through the 'S' stock using a (temporarily fitted) long air pipe and thence to the tank wagons and class 20(s) at the other end of the train.

 

The 'S' stock is completely unbraked, the rest of the consist is braked using loco and tank wagon air brakes.

 

Source: Bombardier Engineer.

Edited July 22, 2017 by leopardml2341

[Fat Controller]

The absence of loading hatch covers doesn't mean that the vehicles aren't at least partially loaded with water to give the required degree of brake force. Presumably, tanks were used initially as there are currently a number stored serviceable, whereas opens and container flats are at a premium.

[melmerby]

To clear up the questions about the role of the tank wagons used on 'S' stock movements:

 

The class 20(s) train brake pipe is connected to the two tank wagons at the head of the consist; it is run through the 'S' stock using a (temporarily fitted) long air pipe and thence to the tank wagons and class 20(s) at the other end of the train.

 

The 'S' stock is completely unbraked, the rest of the consist is braked using loco and tank wagon air brakes.

 

Source: Bombardier Engineer.

That makes sense.

Hadn't seen anything about the through pipe so it was all a bit puzzling.

 

I wonder what the arrangements were in steam days with vacuum braked loco and not top and tailed?

From what I remember there was only one vehicle between the loco and the LU stock and another at the back (with a toad?)

Where they run as an unfitted goods? However they seemed to operate too fast for that!

 

Keith

Edited July 22, 2017 by melmerby

[keefer]

even up until the early '80s, trains of EMUs / LU stock (new or scrap) were hauled with no more than a brake van at each end - often these were TOPS R or Z and they were often match vehicles i.e. they had normal couplings at one end and a compatible coupler (e.g. tightlock or LU) at the other.

IIRC these were run as unfitted goods, something like 35mph?If the vehicles had external brake pipes, then i think these could be connected giving a braked train (e.g. SUB, EPB, AC units)

The modern 'translator' coaches were a later development which allowed braking/control systems to be connected and run as a fully fitted load

Edited July 22, 2017 by keefer

[Swindon 123]

even up until the early '80s, trains of EMUs / LU stock (new or scrap) were hauled with no more than a brake van at each end - often these were TOPS R or Z and they were often match vehicles i.e. they had normal couplings at one end and a compatible coupler (e.g. tightlock or LU) at the other.

IIRC these were run as unfitted goods, something like 35mph?If the vehicles had external brake pipes, then i think these could be connected giving a braked train (e.g. SUB, EPB, AC units)

The modern 'translator' coaches were a later development which allowed braking/control systems to be connected and run as a fully fitted load

Such as this combination at Evesham in April 1981. The brakevan is an unfitted CAO.

A581A-009(HR) by Paul James, on FlickrA581A-010(HR) by Paul James, on Flickr

 

Paul J.

[LMS2968]

In steam days they ran as a Class H unfitted goods:

 

 

2968 at Dallam Branch Sidings with Wirral electric stock Horwich - Birkenhead, courtesy Dallam Dave.

[big jim]

Marcus37 is your man regards the stock moves, he drives them all the time

 

As well as being the coupling translator the barrier makes up one of the 3 rear vehicles on a train that (under the old rule book) have to be braked so running them with a pair of 20s each end gives 3 braked vehicles both ends due to the change ends en route between Derby and say Amersham when they run via risborough and Aylesbury, they also still run at 35mph, a right pain when you have to follow one from dorridge to banbury!

 

The rulebook has changed now and it's possible to have an unbraked vehicle one coach back from the rear as I regularly do when I'm on the yellow UTU trains, they prefer to run the UTU unbraked to avoid wheelflats on the enhanced brake bogie (the test bogie is unbraked)

 

before the change I used to have to run with the UTU in a 7 vehicle formation, running as the centre vehicle which given the number of times I had to change ends in a shift was a right pain!

Edited July 23, 2017 by big jim