Prototype for everything corner.

[F-UnitMad]

On 17/03/2024 at 09:01, pH said:

Code 83 to code 100 join:
 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/853680/

Available in model form, too. At least in 1:48th scale.

"American Switch & Signal" cast nickel-silver transition joint bars between the Code 125 & Code 100 rails in places on my layout....

 

 

[montyburns56]

Shipley 1991 by Tony Woof

 

 

[keefer]

Fancy a shiny, new IC225 set but can't be @rsed updating the layout?🙂

Edited March 20 by keefer

[65179]

23 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

Shipley 1991 by Tony Woof

 

 

 

Better with a Generator:

John Whiteley Flickr image 19 June 1989 

 

The phrase 'Bradford Drag' needs careful use in a search engine now!

 

Simon

Edited March 20 by 65179

[Matt37268]

5 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Better with a Generator:

John Whiteley Flickr image 19 June 1989 

 

The phrase 'Bradford Drag' needs careful use in a search engine now!

 

Simon

Interesting that’s a rake of MK 3’s was there a HST power car the other end? 

[nigb55009]

The would normally be MK4 coaches, class 91 loco and a DVT at the rear. It is possible that a HST power car could be on the rear.

The buffer fitted ones initially worked with the 91s before the DVTs were built.

Edited March 21 by nigb55009
more info added

[25kV]

7 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Interesting that’s a rake of MK 3’s was there a HST power car the other end? 

 

Before the Mk4s were in traffic this was a common formation.  If I recall correctly, the HST power cars were set up to operate in multiple with the 91s, rather than just providing ETS, leading to some spirited accelerations!

[65179]

8 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Interesting that’s a rake of MK 3’s was there a HST power car the other end? 

 

Yes, I was looking for a typical image of these drags because I have fond memories of seeing 47402, 47413, 47417 and 47418 (and for a while 47517/500) on these after introduction of the Mk4s and DVTs. However, I stumbled across this image taken near where the Class 31 image was at Shipley. As others have noted, this view is a little earlier and shows one of the Mk3 sets initially used with a buffer fitted HST power car at the rear.

 

Simon

Edited March 21 by 65179

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, 65179 said:

... a buffer fitted HST power car at the rear.

I've never figured out why they felt those Power Cars needed to be fitted with buffers !

[65179]

14 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I've never figured out why they felt those Power Cars needed to be fitted with buffers !

 

Operational flexibility. See post 5 here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-hsts-with-buffers.36134/#post-489260

 

Simon

[nightstar.train]

3 hours ago, 25kV said:

 

Before the Mk4s were in traffic this was a common formation.  If I recall correctly, the HST power cars were set up to operate in multiple with the 91s, rather than just providing ETS, leading to some spirited accelerations!

 

Initially the HST was set to just provide ETS to the coaches. But this meant the engine was running at very low revs and led to carbon build up in the exhausts. ISTR that there was a fire involving one of the HST powercars because of this. So they modified the controls to make the powercar run in full multiple with the 91 to get the revs up and keep the engine clean. It did lead to some very spirited acceleration as you say. 

[Matt37268]

3 hours ago, 25kV said:

 

Before the Mk4s were in traffic this was a common formation.  If I recall correctly, the HST power cars were set up to operate in multiple with the 91s, rather than just providing ETS, leading to some spirited accelerations!

Yes I’ve heard the stories! 😀

[Artless Bodger]

Wasn't there an issue with commutator glazing (or something) when unpowered power car motors were run for long distances at high speed too, better to power the motors to prevent this?

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

Operational flexibility. See post 5 here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-hsts-with-buffers.36134/#post-489260

"The fitting of buffers was to reduce the risk of blocking the ECML in the event of train failure, as it takes time to apply the emergency drawbar
Furthermore, the Class 91 could run round and attach directly to the HST power car, with greater ease" ............ not that the ECML was used to running HSTs with no buffers by that date - nor that they then saw the need to fit the rest of the fleet with them !

[65179]

39 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

Wasn't there an issue with commutator glazing (or something) when unpowered power car motors were run for long distances at high speed too, better to power the motors to prevent this?

 

Yes, covered previously in this thread (post at the bottom of this page):

 

Simon

 

 

[Steven B]

17 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

"The fitting of buffers was to reduce the risk of blocking the ECML in the event of train failure, as it takes time to apply the emergency drawbar
Furthermore, the Class 91 could run round and attach directly to the HST power car, with greater ease" ............ not that the ECML was used to running HSTs with no buffers by that date - nor that they then saw the need to fit the rest of the fleet with them !

 

Perhaps they were worried about the reliability of a new loco class and its interoperability with the HST power car.

 

Problems with the TDM lead to trains like this:

Blunt End 91 & HST At  Leeds. by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

 

Was there a limitation on the top speed a HST coupled with the emergency bar coupling could travel?

Steven B

[iands]

1 minute ago, Steven B said:

 

Perhaps they were worried about the reliability of a new loco class and its interoperability with the HST power car.

 

Problems with the TDM lead to trains like this:

Blunt End 91 & HST At  Leeds. by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

 

Was there a limitation on the top speed a HST coupled with the emergency bar coupling could travel?

Steven B

IIRC, the 91s running blunt-end first were (are?) limited to 110mph. 

[Steven B]

Of course, there's nothing stopping you from having the HST power car being in front of the class 91. Then add in a DVT, a class 90 and a second class 91, in at least five different liveries:

(Richard on Flickr)

[65179]

4 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

Perhaps they were worried about the reliability of a new loco class and its interoperability with the HST power car.

 

Problems with the TDM lead to trains like this:

Blunt End 91 & HST At  Leeds. by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

 

Was there a limitation on the top speed a HST coupled with the emergency bar coupling could travel?

Steven B

 

110mph, I understand, when the coupling bar was in use, although the practical limit was usually the max speed of the assisting loco.  So it's 110mph regardless of which way round the assisting 91 was orientated: 

 

[proton]

22 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Better with a Generator:

John Whiteley Flickr image 19 June 1989 

 

The phrase 'Bradford Drag' needs careful use in a search engine now!

 

Simon

As do Southern Pride and East Kent Models....

[45125]

55 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

110mph, I understand, when the coupling bar was in use, although the practical limit was usually the max speed of the assisting loco.  So it's 110mph regardless of which way round the assisting 91 was orientated: 

 

The speed limit is set by the assisting locos speed, with a 91 it will be one 110mph as the brake is only applied from the leading end. 125mph is only allowed with a brake that can be applied from both ends.

 

The fitting of buffers, TDM and other mods was done to facilitate the testing of the 91s and no MK4 was available and was not going to be for almost a year, so the power cars were modified like 43013 and 43123 which had been used for trials on the WCML, and along with a small number of TGS that needed modifications. Nothing to do with reliability.

Edited March 21 by 45125
more info

[Wickham Green too]

Stepped fishplates of a slightly different type : - 

 

 

Suir Bridge, Waterford ; 1/5/99

 

 

[DavidBird]

On 21/03/2024 at 10:08, Wickham Green too said:

I've never figured out why they felt those Power Cars needed to be fitted with buffers !

 

On 21/03/2024 at 10:22, 65179 said:

 

Operational flexibility. See post 5 here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-hsts-with-buffers.36134/#post-489260

 

Simon

 

I remember seeing these on the Bradford drags with the 31s.  They were hauled in both directions by the 31.  Strangely, I don't remember 47 in use, but that's possibly because that was what was expected, while the use of 31s was unusual, so has  stuck in my memory better.

But why not just use the 43? Apparently the 91 only had enough battery power to raise the pantograph, so running it at the front, with the 43 propelling, would have flattened the battery and lost the control.  So when the loco was used one way, it still had to be returned, so it saved a LE movement to use the same loco to haul the train both ways.

[25kV]

11 minutes ago, DavidBird said:

 

 

I remember seeing these on the Bradford drags with the 31s.  They were hauled in both directions by the 31.  Strangely, I don't remember 47 in use, but that's possibly because that was what was expected, while the use of 31s was unusual, so has  stuck in my memory better.

But why not just use the 43? Apparently the 91 only had enough battery power to raise the pantograph, so running it at the front, with the 43 propelling, would have flattened the battery and lost the control.  So when the loco was used one way, it still had to be returned, so it saved a LE movement to use the same loco to haul the train both ways.

It would also have established the operating pattern for when the Mk4s were introduced, and HST power was not an option. 

 

I remember the 47 drags - usually Generators - back in the early 1990s.  They made quite the contrast with the then brand-new 91s/Mk4s was quite something - you could even make out the D numbers under the paint on a few of them!

[Davexoc]

I was looking through some old photos, and getting to this one it struck me that we don't need to strive to plant everything straight and true.

There are 3 lamp-posts, 4 signals, 3 wooden poles and a platform sign, which if any are truely upright?