Styrene Sleepers & Timbering ?

[Ron Heggs]

Have built a few sets of trackwork for Manchester Central using C+L components and Templot template

 

With some 350 metres of trackwork still to build, the cost of the sleepering alone which is such a plain item would be quite excessive

 

A single sheet of styrene would produce in excess of 450 sleepers at 1/13 the cost of C+L sleepers

 

.. and a single sheet would produce almost 14 metres of Timbering

 

Has anyone any experience with using styrene strip ?

 

Comments anyone ?

 

Ron

[Stubby47]

No experience myself (strictly Peco, thanks very much) but I would think the advantage most users get from using pre-cut sleepers is the consistency of size.

 

Given what you've achieved in the preceding pages, this would not seem to be an issue for you, so I guess using a sheet makes the most sense.

 

How will you simulate the wood grain ?

[Debs.]

How will you simulate the wood grain ?

 

I have seen it done reasonably well by scoring: dragging a junior-hacksaw/razor-saw blade offcut; sideways down the face of the sleeper.

[Tim Dubya]

yes, here it is  (on PCB anyway)

[Stubby47]

This is a time versus money question.  Have you calculated how many sleepers you need for 350 metres of 4mm track?  How many sheets of styrene would that be?  How long would that take?  By the time your have de-burred each cut, then simulated the grain and cleaned up, time will add up.  Would you remain sane?  

 

I'm guessing you've not seen Ron's work - his cutting of styrene is not so much an exact science as an incredible work of art - I almost expect him to cut each chair from a self-made profile strip too !!

[HAB]

Have built a few sets of trackwork for Manchester Central using C+L components and Templot template

 

...

 

Has anyone any experience with using styrene strip ?

 

Comments anyone ?

 

Ron

 

Hello Ron.  

 

Which C&L timbering have you been using?

 

Strictly, I should not answer your post since personally I do not have experience of using styrene - but I do reckon to know a bit about hand-built track!!!

 

I generally use laser-cut ply sleepers and timbering (Exactoscale [C&L], 1,6mm thick to provide space under the rails for stretchers, rodding etc) and have found that fine. It takes a stain well, and even when subject to a bit of handling the colour stays put, and does not scratch off to reveal black/white/grey etc.  When I have used plastic sleepering, I find that the solvent bond to the chairs is a bit ferocious and quick acting which means that any emerging tightness of gauge is impossible to correct.  And ultimately, they look exactly like painted plastic. If you have been using 1.6mm C&L then your .060" plasticard might be hard work in the cutting - but you know more about that than I ever will...!!

 

You might not be so concerned about detail appearance, but for me,  wood is unbeatable in how it looks:-

 

 

Laser-cut ply is not cheap - but my time investment in these timbers was just to cut them to length, throw them in a bucket of stain, then lay and ballast them.  Weathering was then done using powders after the rail was painted.  This a allows a wide variation in colouring which is not possible when using an airbrush. I have never had any issues bonding plastic chairs to wood, but that might be a feature of how I build track rather than any comment on the integrity of the process.

 

My other concern with using styrene would be a question mark over its long term dimensional stability when it is glued on one side (with PVA for example) and exposed to solvent on the other side. - and I am not sure I would want to conduct an experiment with your amount of trackwork!,

 

I continue to thoroughly enjoy your amazing work - thank you for spending the time to share it with us.

 

Best wishes,

[davefrk]

Hi, I would worry about the styrene warping, as mentioned above styrene has a greater tendency to warp when solvent is applied to one side. Even ABS thin sleepers do it if not well glued down to the trackbed. I had to lift a whole formation of two points and a slip when the thin C&L sleepers curled up and reduced the gauge after only six months, possibly if I had ballasted straight away it wouldn't have been a problem. All pointwork on Wharfeside is now on ply timbers and the oldest is five years and it's still fine.

 

 

Hope that helps,

Dave Franks

[3 link]

 

 

throw them in a bucket of stain,

 

Hello Howard,

 

That is a nice piece of track work there, I also use C & L components and with real wood sleepers, I have tested quite a few wood stains and I was still undecided until I looked at your work.  So could you please tell me what stain you use please, the tie bars look very good as well.

 

Regards,

 

Martyn.

[Ron Heggs]

Thanks for all your comments and information re: PCB, ply and styrene

 

Time is not an issue, but long term stability is, especially any gauge changes

 

Will have to re-evaluate all the options

 

Ron

[HAB]

Hello Howard,

 

That is a nice piece of track work there, I also use C & L components and with real wood sleepers, I have tested quite a few wood stains and I was still undecided until I looked at your work.  So could you please tell me what stain you use please, the tie bars look very good as well.

 

Thanks for the kind words Martyn.  I used Colron about half and half Blackwood and Teak but well diluted with turps.  There are water based one which smell less and would probably be fine. One other thing I did - after all the sleepers were down, I did give them a thin wash of acrylic (a mid grey) just by way of toning things down before ballasting:-

 

 

But the real key to bringing out the grain is the use of weathering powders rather than paint for final colouring - I make my own using a fine file to grind up Conte hard pastels.  Really useful stuff and they do some nice rusty colours.

 

 

Even ABS thin sleepers do it if not well glued down to the trackbed. I had to lift a whole formation of two points and a slip when the thin C&L sleepers curled up and reduced the gauge after only six months, 

 

 

 

Dave - I like the track and I am glad you put the case against plastic so well - you are not the first to tell an unhappy tale!  It is not that plastic sleepers cannot be made to work - just that there are less risky ways of getting reliable and good looking track.

 

Cheers,

 

EDIT:- Should have said - Stretchers are by Ambis Engineering

[HAB]

Time is not an issue...

 

 

 

Well, no, it is only a little layout you are building after all... 

 

Best wishes,

[Welly]

I have built 2 P4 turnouts - one with plastic sleepers (C&L) and one with ply and rivet sleepers. I found the ply and rivet sleepers much more robust than the plastic ones, mainly because it is possible to secure the stock rails to the slide chairs by soldering (and I used etched slide chair bases too) - it is impossible to secure the stock rails to plastic slide chairs except by using araldite or cyano which leaves no possibility of adjustment.

 

So if I were you, I would go for ply and rivet track. I think I would use thin plastic sleeper flexible track for plain track but matching colours between ply and plastic may be tricky!

[HAB]

I have built 2 P4 turnouts - one with plastic sleepers (C&L) and one with ply and rivet sleepers. I found the ply and rivet sleepers much more robust than the plastic ones, mainly because it is possible to secure the stock rails to the slide chairs by soldering (and I used etched slide chair bases too) - it is impossible to secure the stock rails to plastic slide chairs except by using araldite or cyano which leaves no possibility of adjustment.

 

So if I were you, I would go for ply and rivet track. I think I would use thin plastic sleeper flexible track for plain track but matching colours between ply and plastic may be tricky!

 

Good luck with the next hundred or two Welly

 

For me, I have never used a rivet in thirty years and only use flexi track on cassettes - it just does not hold its gauge as David explained.   The problem I think arises when people try to build plastic chaired track using the same methods which applied for riveted track - that, I agree, just does not work.  

 

But thin plastic sleepers are not the answer - and rivets are fine except for the need for "cosmetic" chairs.  To quote someone currently building a large P4 layout - "if I had a layout's worth of riveted track to chair, I would rip it up and start again from scratch - it would be much quicker!

 

Best wishes,

[Ron Heggs]

I have consider all the advice given, and have decided to go with ply sleepers and timbering with plastic chairs

 

If I place the appropriate quantities on order now, they may be here before Xmas

 

Ron

[Izzy]

I haven't encountered any particular issues with using plastic chairs glued to ply sleepers since they were first introduced around 30 years ago. I have though always used rivets at certain locations to firmly fix the rail in place, the crossing nose etc, in the same way that I did when using cast white metal functional chairs before plastic ones arrived. I suppose one gets used to working in a particular manner that suits. It is pleasing to see that plastic chairs on ply sleepers is now becoming an accepted method of track construction, and the high quality of the results that some such as HAB are able to achieve.

 

Izzy

[3 link]

Hello Howard,

 

Thanks for the info, hopefully I will pick some Colron up tomorrow.

 

Regards,

 

Martyn.

[Jeff Smith]

My 25 year old ply and glued C&L chaired track is fine.  All points and scale length plain sections were assembled over templates and then stuck in place with PVA on cork.

[Ron Heggs]

Have the ply ready to cut the sleepers and timbering

 

Have the chairs (C+L and Exactoscale)

 

Have the MEK

 

Have the Templot templates

 

Just waiting on the rail - hopefully being delivered direct from the UK by my daughter before Xmas

 

 

Thanks for all your help and comments 

 

 

 

Ron

[Jeff Smith]

Ron - It's a while since I did my track but the C&L chairs needed something stronger than MEK; you may find that MEK hardly affects the type of plastic that C&L chairs are made from.  I'm sure the C&L web site will put you straight.

[Ron Heggs]

Ron - It's a while since I did my track but the C&L chairs needed something stronger than MEK; you may find that MEK hardly affects the type of plastic that C&L chairs are made from.  I'm sure the C&L web site will put you straight.

Hi, Jeff

 

Had no problems with MEK when building track with C+L chairs, etc. previously. C+L recommendation is MEK for their chairs with ABS and Ply sleepers

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=440_442

 

Could use PlasticWeld (Methyl Chloride), if a problem arises

 

Ron

[Jeff Smith]

Interesting - Butanone was what I used but had no idea it was also known as MEK. I thought they were separate solvents.....you live and learn.

[hayfield]

Ron

 

I think it was the old formula of MEK, as there has been comment in the past on the latest mix of MEK not welding the chairs to ply very well. I have used Butanone without any problems and is what C&L advise when gluing their chairs to ply sleepers.

 

As for plain track, whilst it has no keys in the chairs is much more economical both in money and time, especially in places where there will be no close inspection of the trackwork.

 

As for the turnouts, have you considered using Exactoscale's special chair range (common & obtuse crossing, slip, bridge, small and switch rail chairs. Depending on the gauge you are using they also do check rail chairs. All very useful for that added detail on turnouts and crossings

[Ron Heggs]

Ron

 

I think it was the old formula of MEK, as there has been comment in the past on the latest mix of MEK not welding the chairs to ply very well. I have used Butanone without any problems and is what C&L advise when gluing their chairs to ply sleepers.

 

As for plain track, whilst it has no keys in the chairs is much more economical both in money and time, especially in places where there will be no close inspection of the trackwork.

 

As for the turnouts, have you considered using Exactoscale's special chair range (common & obtuse crossing, slip, bridge, small and switch rail chairs. Depending on the gauge you are using they also do check rail chairs. All very useful for that added detail on turnouts and crossings

Hi, John

 

Butanone is MEK - Methyl Ethyl Ketone - CH₃C(O)CH₂CH₃    - Aggressive

 

PlasticWeld is DichloroMethane - Methylene Chloride - CH₂Cl₂ - Very aggressive

 

MEK-PAK - Slater's Solvent - A mixture of solvents, primarily MEK - This mix has changed at least twice over the years, to make it less aggressive, and now tends to leave a yellowish stain on styrene 

 

There are many 'tradenamed' solvent 'adhesives' on the market which may be useful for the varied range of plastics used by modellers, including the Cyanoacrylates, a wide range of so-called instant adhesives

 

Hope this helps, as some modellers appear confused by the names of the solvents used for plastics, etc.

 

Agree with your comments on chairs. The C+L chairs are used for plain track,with the Exactoscale chairs for the turnouts

 

Cheers

 

Ron

[Izzy]

I have always only used Mek-pak to fix chairs to ply sleepers on the grounds that it wasn't too aggressive and thus didn't affect the surface finish of the mouldings. Although I suppose other types might produce a stronger joint I can't say I've had any problems, and an advantage is that it is possible to slide a scalpel blade between the chair and sleeper and move/re-glue should the position not be quite right. Something that is a distinct advantage with my limited skills.

 

Izzy

[Jeff Smith]

I have always only used Mek-pak to fix chairs to ply sleepers on the grounds that it wasn't too aggressive and thus didn't affect the surface finish of the mouldings. Although I suppose other types might produce a stronger joint I can't say I've had any problems, and an advantage is that it is possible to slide a scalpel blade between the chair and sleeper and move/re-glue should the position not be quite right. Something that is a distinct advantage with my limited skills.

 

Izzy

And that you can't do if using plastic sleepers.........