Hornby Drummond 700

[bertiedog]

There are dozens of US model examples,over the years where a cranked knob solves the problem of a mould being easier to made with a horizontal hole.and the other way round, where the hole was drilled radially and a horizontal knob was needed. Kemtron supplied both types as lost wax castings from the 1950's onwards.

 

With plastic boilers it is easier to have moulded radial holes as pins can be withdrawn as the mould opens, this is more difficult in cast metal dies.

 

Anyway it is the principle, not just this example. i am very grateful that RTR has improved so much recently, but it has taken over 60 years to get there, and we must not let it slip back. I cannot build so much myself now due to ill health issues and rely now on these RTR locos. Oxford were also a bit odd in providing ho daylight under the boiler on the Adams, but we can give them some grace as it is there first ever model.

 

Stephen.

[melmerby]

With plastic boilers it is easier to have moulded radial holes as pins can be withdrawn as the mould opens, this is more difficult in cast metal dies.

 

Stephen.

AFAIK I think you will find the 700 is die cast, as have several recent small boilered Hornby locos.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

Edited April 27, 2016 by melmerby

[bertiedog]

I knew it was die cast, that is the reason they moulded horizontal holes at 90 degrees to the mould parting. It means the mould will withdraw without having to back off the pins that form the holes. I had long experience with die casting at work on instrument making. Any thing you can simplify in the mould is worthwhile, but with a model it is important, especially when other models in your range are correct.

[ExPatBrit]

 

With plastic boilers it is easier to have moulded radial holes as pins can be withdrawn as the mould opens, this is more difficult in cast metal dies.

 

Stephen.

Not actually true, in general, whatever you can do on an injection mould tool, you can also do on a diecasting die, only the construction materials change and naturally the price of the mould or die, because complication has changed. But with either production process, small holes not in line of draw are a pita. As sure as god made little apples, when, (not if), the pin forming the hole breaks, the broken bit will end up somewhere it shouldn't and guaranteed the following "crunch" sound will be expensive.

 

If you take the sane and sensible approach and drill the holes after moulding or casting, then the drill fixture for a radial hole will be more expensive, because the fixture will need to sit at an angle.

 

Someone else has already said, the horizontal holes would have been a conscious, deliberate decision by the Hornby design team to contain tooling costs. And offset cranked handrail knobs would be harder to fit in production, because they automatically become "handed" by the crank. The fact that our US cousins have made models like this in the past is more a reflection on the quantities their production runs are, (and justification for assembly tooling and aids), compared to average British outline production quantities, roughly 6 times smaller based on population alone.

 

Again, to repeat another poster, if it's a deal breaker, don't buy the model, personally, I think it's a super model and don't view it as any kind of slippery slope, the handrail knobs are just one of many compromises r-t-r manufacturers have to make, radial holes wouldn't have come for free and neither would cranked handrail knobs.

[bertiedog]

The US ones are there because the real thing are cranked or bracket supported, and why is only one of Hornby's models affected? Is it the first with a metal boiler casting? Anyway just bought one in Southern black, and with all black you cannot really see it.

It should go well with the Bachmann C class.

To correct the problem would need the holes filled in with resin filler. and redrilled, with the risk of needing a new paint job on top, so best left alone, and enjoy the model. The rest is excellent, and cries out for a decent crew on the foot plate.

 

Stephen

[Guest]

(snip)...and why is only one of Hornby's models affected?...(snip)

 

Stephen

It's not the only one.

 

​Unlike Hornby's recent Pea-Soup Green (that topic is a whole can of worms in itself), the horizontal handrail knobs aren't so much a mistake, but a manufacturing compromise which was necessary due to the methods employed in the models manufacture.

Cost saving measures have always been part of the RTR market (otherwise we'd all be priced out of the market), so I wouldn't see it as a step backwards in the production of RTR models, more a different approach to an old problem.

 

Regards,

Matt

[ExPatBrit]

It's not the only one.

​Unlike Hornby's recent Pea-Soup Green (that topic is a whole can of worms in itself), the horizontal handrail knobs aren't so much a mistake, but a manufacturing compromise which was necessary due to the methods employed in the models manufacture.

Cost saving measures have always been part of the RTR market (otherwise we'd all be priced out of the market), so I wouldn't see it as a step backwards in the production of RTR models, more a different approach to an old problem.

Regards,

Matt

Can't disagree with anything in your post, it's debatable as to whether the 700 was even the first with horizontal handrail knobs. Here's a link to the J15 thread were much the same was being said at roughly the same time as in this thread, (sorry, not sufficiently motivated to find out dates for other models for sure, the J15 was one I recalled from memory) :

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80950-Hornby-announce-j15/page-6

 

To my eyes, the J15 looks worse than the Black Motor, didn't stop that model being well received. And that whole period of design was when resistance to any kind of price increase was being strongly voiced, much as we might like, we can't have it both ways.

[N15class]

Soon be back to molded on handrails.

[Guest]

Soon be back to molded on handrails.

Doubt it.

Hornby tried that with 'Design Clever' and the reaction of the public spoke for itself. The RTR market, I find, is a fine balance between detail and cost per model - with RTR companies trying to strike the perfect balance between the detail levels of their models to make them appealing, versus the subsequent cost of the detail which can push people away. 'Design Clever' proved to be too far into the money conservation camp, with many people openly complaining about the lack of detail spoiling what would otherwise be superb models as the detailing levels suffered too much to give models the appeal they needed to sell well.

 

Hornby found out first hand that such an approach was too much into the conservation side of things, so I doubt they'd be too willing to go back there anytime soon given the backlash they faced from it.

 

I feel that the 700's strike the balance near on perfectly. The level of detail applied to both body and chassis is superb. While the handrails may not be the prototypical angle, I think it's an acceptable compromise to reduce the cost - as even though the final RRP of £109.99 is still fairly high, it is not unreachable for the majority of modelers.

 

Regards,

Matt

[Dunsignalling]

Soon be back to molded on handrails.

Tricky with a cast metal boiler...........

 

I was critical of this feature when it first became apparent but, at layout viewing distance, it is not noticeable at all (which saved me the job of re-doing them on my two). 

 

Certainly a lot better overall than I have managed with kits in the past.

 

John

Edited April 28, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[bertiedog]

Older Kit makers were lucky to get anything but steel split pins to secure the handrails on to locos. I remember talking to Keyser about it, in the 1960's, and he was saying then brass turned handrail knobs were difficult to source, and far too expensive to make. Unfortunately their answer was the moulded plastic knobs they made, which usually got binned and brass ones bought.

 

After saying split pins were bad, they worked if you made them yourself  by filing brass wire to half diameter and wrapped it around the handrail, soldering the lot solid with an 18ba washer as the base. At least you could then get custom lengths doing it this way, and the result was perfect for straight shanked knobs.

 

Stephen

[Graham_Muz]

My couple of Hornby 700s have been reliveried to 1946 ish and weathered.

 

 

See https://grahammuz.com/2016/04/15/workbench-witterings-4-identity-changing-and-weathering/ for details on the process

[bertiedog]

Well, a 700 has been bought and a nice loco bar the knobs, which barely show on BR black. The running is good right from the box.

Next purchase is a J15 GER 060, with dual flywheel drive. The 700 has none, but has space for a small flywheel to be added, or a coreless motor put in the same space.

 

Both of these 060's are really good productions.

 

Stephen.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In addition to which, I hope these small 0-6-0s show sufficient customer uptake to encourage yet more of the breed. It's been a notable lack in RTR provision long term, and now that both Bachmann and Hornby have 'put out' it's in our hands whether this continues.

[bertiedog]

There is a slight issue, after initial running in, the loco tends to start with a very slight jerk, and it does not run as slow as other 060's at crawl speeds. I wonder if the dropped flywheel is behind this? I will open it up and measure up how much space there is to fit a small flywheel on the motor shaft. Also see if a higher ratio worm drive could be slipped in. It would need lathe work to remove half the moulded double gear , and add a higher tooth count brass gear in it's place, with a matching finer worm on the motor shaft.

At all higher speeds it runs fine, smooth and quite, just the start and crawl not quite up to, for instance, the C class Bachmann, or DJModels Beattie, both of which crawl, and stop and start without a surge or jerk.

Stephen.

[Ravenser]

There is a slight issue, after initial running in, the loco tends to start with a very slight jerk, and it does not run as slow as other 060's at crawl speeds. I wonder if the dropped flywheel is behind this? I will open it up and measure up how much space there is to fit a small flywheel on the motor shaft. Also see if a higher ratio worm drive could be slipped in. It would need lathe work to remove half the moulded double gear , and add a higher tooth count brass gear in it's place, with a matching finer worm on the motor shaft.

At all higher speeds it runs fine, smooth and quite, just the start and crawl not quite up to, for instance, the C class Bachmann, or DJModels Beattie, both of which crawl, and stop and start without a surge or jerk.

Stephen.

 

There's a small flywheel in the J50 and that runs beautifully. On the other hand my Bachmann J11 is not quite top-notch when it comes to slow speed running. However I haven't opened it up to see if there's a flywheel (you don't need to to fit a decoder)

[Dunsignalling]

There is a slight issue, after initial running in, the loco tends to start with a very slight jerk, and it does not run as slow as other 060's at crawl speeds. I wonder if the dropped flywheel is behind this? I will open it up and measure up how much space there is to fit a small flywheel on the motor shaft. Also see if a higher ratio worm drive could be slipped in. It would need lathe work to remove half the moulded double gear , and add a higher tooth count brass gear in it's place, with a matching finer worm on the motor shaft.

At all higher speeds it runs fine, smooth and quite, just the start and crawl not quite up to, for instance, the C class Bachmann, or DJModels Beattie, both of which crawl, and stop and start without a surge or jerk.

Stephen.

Neither of mine do it.

 

How much running-in has it had? Mine get an hour and a half on the rolling road (reversing direction every 15 minutes) at different speeds then half an hour light engine on a layout followed by gradually increasing loads. That's for Hornby locos, Bachmann generally need more in my experience.

 

A flywheel's job is to prevent hesitation if pick-up is momentarily interrupted (stay alive does the same thing for DCC users) and the presence or absence of one shouldn't make any difference to starting other than slightly increasing the voltage needed to get the motor turning. 

 

On all makes, lubricating the crank pins / motion helps as these always arrive dry. The difference it makes can be almost alarming; one of my BR 3MT tanks went from "I'm sending it back on Monday" to being one of my better-running locos just from doing so.

 

John

Edited May 7, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[N15class]

Neither of mine do it.

 

How much running-in has it had? Mine get an hour and a half on the rolling road (reversing direction every 15 minutes) at different speeds then half an hour light engine on a layout followed by gradually increasing loads. That's for Hornby locos, Bachmann generally need more in my experience.

 

A flywheel's job is to prevent hesitation if pick-up is momentarily interrupted (stay alive does the same thing for DCC users) and the presence or absence of one shouldn't make any difference to starting other than slightly increasing the voltage needed to get the motor turning. 

 

On all makes, lubricating the crank pins / motion helps as these always arrive dry. The difference it makes can be almost alarming; one of my BR 3MT tanks went from "I'm sending it back on Monday" to being one of my better-running locos just from doing so.

 

John

I thought the flywheel balanced out the rotation of the motor shaft and stay alive balanced electirical supply.

[bertiedog]

Found the problem, it is slightly excessive end play in the motor, it is too much, and takes a moment to tighten up against the thrust from the worm after the motor stops or reverses. I have added a collar to the shaft, with a ptfe washer, and re-tested it, and it is now better at a crawl, The play was allowing a bit of judder in the drive chain.

I will machine a small flywheel which can act as the collar as well to stop end play, and give a small amount of inertia to the armature. Flywheels work as storage of energy, as a motor starts it stores up energy in the flywheel, and as it slows the energy is released to aid rotation.

The motor seems quite all right otherwise, just about .7mm end play, which should in theory be zero, without being tight..

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Added the replacement brass flywheel this morning, it acts as collar as well to control excess armature end play, and the slow speed  performance is now transformed completely, now no faint jerk as it starts or stops and a very slow crawl speed as well. (DC not DCC). The DC is smoothed, not pulse or PWM, and no feedback.

 

Hornby's service sheet definitely shows a flywheel, I wonder why they dropped it, especially as the GER 060 has them fitted.

 

The flywheel is not all solid, it has 6 holes around the centre to lighten the inside, leaving only the rim solid.

 

I might still re-gear it later on to get the general speed lower.

 

Stephen

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The same 'absence of flywheel' on the D16/3; the chassis casting has a location clearly shaped to take a flywheel, but none fitted or displayed in the diagram. Looks like cost down to me, little 'nibbles' to take out nice to have but not wholly essential features.

 

The J15 has what I estimate at 44:1 reduction, the example I have there is no end float on the motor shaft to a subjective 'finger-poke'. Exemplary performance on track.

[phil gollin]

.

 

New versions of the 700 class have been released ;

 

R3421 Class 700 0-6-0 30698 in BR Black with early emblem

 

R3420 Class 700 0-6-0 30346 in BR Black with late crest 

 

Edit :

 

And ;

 

R3419 Hornby Drummond 700 Class Steam Loco 693 Southern Black

Edited June 24, 2016 by phil gollin

[Dunsignalling]

I thought the flywheel balanced out the rotation of the motor shaft and stay alive balanced electirical supply.

Both of which achieve the avoidance of hesitation that I set out in my second paragraph for their respective control methods.

 

One does it by storing kinetic energy, the other by storing electrical energy. The effect on movement of the loco should be the same so long as both are correctly proportioned.

 

John

[toboldlygo]

.

 

New versions of the 700 class have been released ;

 

R3421 Class 700 0-6-0 30698 in BR Black with early emblem

 

R3420 Class 700 0-6-0 30346 in BR Black with late crest 

 

Edit :

 

And ;

 

R3419 Hornby Drummond 700 Class Steam Loco 693 Southern Black

 

Just checking the photo's of the new releases on Hattons website, it appears they've been playing with the knobs - they're not horizontal on these releases by the look of it.

Edited June 29, 2016 by toboldlygo

[Oldddudders]

 it appears they've been playing with the knobs 

 

Their eyesight may suffer!

 

At least this is the thread I think it is. More than once recently I've clicked on a thread about Class 700 and found people talking about some sort of multiple unit!