YK 50A Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I said back in post 245 that something wasn't quite right with these models. It wasn't the vents or the sole bars, I can see that, it was the overall look of them. I've never been one for counting rivets and rarely get the measuring stick out, but the windows must be it. If each aperture is a scale 4" too narrow and too shallow, then that's a lot of inches. I know why my Airby's don't look right and it's mostly the tumble home (or turn under or whatever the correct term is). But to me, they look more like a Mk2 than the Hornby's do. It's a poor show from the same company that manufactured the beautiful Gresley and Stanier coaches. I know they're a good deal more expensive, but I would have preferred to pay the money, which is probably what I will do when the Bachmann's come out. Alun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Every photo I've seen have been exclusively Mk2Ds. I'm building a rake using coach numbers corresponding to the Derby Etches Park depot (DY). I take it both were used a lot, but I'm hesitant to get Mk2Es due to the inaccuracies. They just bother me. I'm not sure what years you are modelling in but until 1978 the Mk2D TSO stock was exclusively on the Eastern Region and even after then there were only 5 Mk2D TSO coaches allocated to the whole of the London Midland from 1979 until 1983 when the number dropped to 2. The first class stock is a different matter, the L.M. had 28 Mk2D FO coaches and 26 Mk2D FK coaches from 1972 until 1983. Whether Mk2D, Mk2E or Mk2F stock was used I still wouldn't have any Hornby Mk2e stock (paid for or free). The Airfix coaches will serve me until the Bachmann stock is made and I will then decide what I wish to do. I've waited a long time for a new air con Mk2, I can wait a bit longer. BTW: Gentlemen from Bachmann please keep reading this thread, from all of the contributions on here you should be able to avoid every one of Hornby's mistakes. That doesn't mean you can add some new ones of your own though! Edited January 3, 2015 by Flood 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2015 Airfix 2D TSO and a razor saw is the answer to me. Or a couple of BSOs 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarrettTheThief Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I'm not sure what years you are modelling in but until 1978 the Mk2D TSO stock was exclusively on the Eastern Region and even after then there were only 5 Mk2D TSO coaches allocated to the whole of the London Midland from 1979 until 1983 when the number dropped to 2. The first class stock is a different matter, the L.M. had 28 Mk2D FO coaches and 26 Mk2D FK coaches from 1972 until 1983. Whether Mk2D, Mk2E or Mk2F stock was used I still wouldn't have any Hornby Mk2e stock (paid for or free). The Airfix coaches will serve me until the Bachmann stock is made and I will then decide what I wish to do. I've waited a long time for a new air con Mk2, I can wait a bit longer. Thanks for the information. It would appear that the Mk2D coaches I've seen in various images were First Class coaches. I just saw this picture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/auchlander/5244863966 It looks like they are either Mk2Es or Mk2Fs. I might wait for the Bachmann coaches and if they are too pricey, I'll go for Hornby's and Airfix's Mk2Ds and take out a modeller's license. I don't mind mixing Mk2Ds and Mk2Fs for MML services. I'm happy to run with 1983 formations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Thanks for the information. It would appear that the Mk2D coaches I've seen in various images were First Class coaches. I just saw this picture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/auchlander/5244863966 It looks like they are either Mk2Es or Mk2Fs. I might wait for the Bachmann coaches and if they are too pricey, I'll go for Hornby's and Airfix's Mk2Ds and take out a modeller's license. I don't mind mixing Mk2Ds and Mk2Fs for MML services. I'm happy to run with 1983 formations. The angle is so acute it's difficult to tell whether they have p/v boxes (Mk2E) or not (Mk2F). Regarding the first class stock don't forget that all air con first class coaches had their toilets on one side only, not opposing corners like the Mk2E and Mk2F TSO stock. As some Mk2D firsts had Stones equipment and others Temperature Ltd and some Mk2F firsts also had Stones equipment and others Temperature Ltd the only way to tell between them is one less roof vent and a lack of the p/v box on a Mk2F. On the fan side it can be virtually impossible to tell between them if you can't read the number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 They arrived today and on taking the TSO out of the box, my first impression was that somethings definitely amiss here......... I'm not going to go over ground that has already been covered, but the main fault that was niggling away at me was the main coach side windows. I got the trusty measuring stick out and became even further disconcerted, so I then opened one of my Extreme Etchings MK2D/E/F window frame etches. These are spot on and I have already done a couple of Arifix 2D's with them: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/47960-airfix-mk2-d/ http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/47964-airfix-mk2-tso-in-scotrail-livery/ I know that the dimensions of these etches are correct and the original Airfix apertures are very close also ( not bad for a 40 year old model ), requiring great care in fitting the etches.......... Anyway, I then decided to offer up an etch to the new 2E and the Hornby appertures are way to small, both in length and height. It's already been covered that the blue band below the cantrail is too deep, but the top of the Hornby appertures line up just fine with the Airfix examples shown above. This, therefore, means that the Hornby appertures are about 1mm to shallow in length and Height, exacerbating the grey below window height. I know that it doesn't sound a lot, but it makes a huge visual impact and for me makes the whole coach look wrong. It will take a lot of filing down to get the Extreme etchings to fit correctly and for me, Hornby have let themselves badly down ( moulded grabrails on the ends of the coach is another gripe ) What measurements are you getting? The both seem very close - just under 20mm long and 8.5mm in height. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bob Reid Posted January 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2015 What measurements are you getting? The both seem very close - just under 20mm long and 8.5mm in height. Hopefully near enough scale (give or take 0.16mm at 20.00 mm x 8.66 mm..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarrettTheThief Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) The angle is so acute it's difficult to tell whether they have p/v boxes (Mk2E) or not (Mk2F). Regarding the first class stock don't forget that all air con first class coaches had their toilets on one side only, not opposing corners like the Mk2E and Mk2F TSO stock. As some Mk2D firsts had Stones equipment and others Temperature Ltd and some Mk2F firsts also had Stones equipment and others Temperature Ltd the only way to tell between them is one less roof vent and a lack of the p/v box on a Mk2F. On the fan side it can be virtually impossible to tell between them if you can't read the number. Thanks again, I appreciate the help. I took note of the toilet windows (I've bookmarked the thread on detail differences). I also went through an old Platform 5 book dating back to 1984 and there are a lot of Mk2Fs based at either Etches Park or Cricklewood. That's why I've decided to go with those. Converting Mk2Ds to Mk2Fs will be interesting, but apart from moving the toilet window and remove the pressure ventilation cabinet which are doable. I think the roof detailing on old Hornby and Airfix Mk2Ds is more akin to Mk2Fs, no? I'm not sure on the external differences between the friction dampeners on 2D/2E coaches and hydraulic dampeners on the 2Fs but I imagine they stand out too. EDIT: Southern Pride to a bogie side with hydraulic dampers and I've sourced RoeVac vents and hatches. Thankfully, it looks like I can avoid buying the Hornby Mk2Es entirely. Edited January 4, 2015 by GarrettTheThief Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Regarding Midland Main Line rakes in the 1970s and 80s, and that Sheffield was within Eastern Region territory, weren't some MML to London rakes supplied from ER Neville Hill (Leeds) on a daily basis? Thus you would have seen more Mk2d stock, other than that allocated to LMR. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 All Midland Mainline rakes, from 1970 onwards, were provided by the LMR. Therefore you wouldn't have seen ER allocated Mk2d stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Just as a matter of interest there is a log of the coaching stock seen at Leicester during 1981 on the B.R Coaching Stock forum. The allocations of London Midland Region air con stock barely changed from 1979 to 1982 (a few Mk2F TSOs moved from the Eastern to the London Midland) so the 1981 list will be pretty close to when I am modelling in 1979. The number of each coaching stock type seen was as follows: Mk2D FO: 18 Mk2E FO: 20 Mk2F FO: 1 Mk2D TSO: 5 Mk2E TSO: 71 Mk2F TSO: 1 Mk2D BSO: 1 Mk2E BSO: 8 Mk2D FK: 9 Mk2C BFK: 4 Mk2D BFK: 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarrettTheThief Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I think I made that mistake because the few pictures and videos I'd seen showed First coaches (which on checking their numbers were Mk2Ds) and not getting a good view of the standard coaches and (incorrectly) making the assumption they were also Mk2Ds rather than Mk2E/Fs. EDIT: that and having not read a an earlier post in this thread. Anyhow, conversion between the different types is doable without having to resort to buying Hornby Mk2E coaches. Edited January 4, 2015 by GarrettTheThief Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Regarding Midland Main Line rakes in the 1970s and 80s, and that Sheffield was within Eastern Region territory, weren't some MML to London rakes supplied from ER Neville Hill (Leeds) on a daily basis? Thus you would have seen more Mk2d stock, other than that allocated to LMR. Cheers, Brian. Just to clarify what Mark has already said. Prior to the summer timetable 1970 the Eastern supplied most of the express rakes with the London Midland supplying the semi-fasts and a couple of return express rakes. From 1970 the London Midland took over all the services. Edited January 4, 2015 by Flood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Just to clarify what Mark has already said. Prior to the summer timetable 1970 the Eastern supplied most of the express rakes with the London Midland supplying the semi-fasts and a couple of return express rakes. From 1970 the London Midland took over all the services. Thanks for the correction, so post-1970 where was most of the MML fleet based for servicing? Derby? So going a bit OT, the carriage depot south of Sheffield (Millhouses?), seen in the 1971 cab ride film, and perhaps responsible for pre-1970 express rakes, must have got the chop soon after, with remaining duties transferred to Nunnery? BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Probably Cricklewood and Derby. The 1976 Eastern Region Cross Country and Local Carriage Diagrams book has five diagrams starting from Nunnery Carriage Sidings each weekday morning, all of which return to Nunnery C.S. each night. A quick look at the 1981/82 Eastern Region Cross Country book shows similar arrangements. BTW the 1981 book shows only FO stock allocated to the services so the use of nine Mk2D FK coaches shown in the Leicester log shows how official stock diagrams are not always kept to in reality. Edited January 4, 2015 by Flood 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) What measurements are you getting? The both seem very close - just under 20mm long and 8.5mm in height. Attached is a photo I've taken this evening following the 2E's emergence from the stripping fluid. As per my original estimates, the Hornby frame is far too small. It is the frame on the bottom left that has been placed in the correct position and just highlights the inaccuracy of Hornby's attempt. I am currently in the process of filing off all the moulded detail - more photos to follow as and when I've done some work on it: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/66166-Hornby-mk2e-window-frame-anomaly-highlighted-by-an-extreme-etchings-frame/ cheers Andy Edited January 4, 2015 by BigAndy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Attached is a poto I've taken this evening following the 2E's emergence from the stripping fluid. As per my original estimates, the Hornby frame is far too small. It is the frame on the botom left that has been placed in the correct position and just highlights the inaccuracy of Hornby's attempt. I am currently in the process of filing off all the moulded detail - more photos to follow as and when I've done some work on it: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/66166-Hornby-mk2e-window-frame-anomaly-highlighted-by-an-extreme-etchings-frame/ cheers Andy Hmm, I need to get my 2e's out of the box again and decide what to do. I can correct everything but it will almost certainly be easier to adapt Bachmann Mk 2f's to a 2e as I will be looking at a complete repaint per coach to fix the livery/window issues... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hmm, I need to get my 2e's out of the box again and decide what to do. I can correct everything but it will almost certainly be easier to adapt Bachmann Mk 2f's to a 2e as I will be looking at a complete repaint per coach to fix the livery/window issues... Totally agree. however, after spending the money on these two coaches, I'm kind of determined to put them right! I've started hacking at the window frames tonight and it's going to be a lengthy process as the two sides and whole bottom of the apperture needs opening out. It's interesting to note that the alignment along the top of the appertures along the whole of the coach, is in the correct place. As I've said before, if Airfix could get theirs right 40 years ago, how come Hornby have fallen over in 2014 with it???? cheers Andy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bob Reid Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2015 Do you know Andy the dimensions of the Extreme Etchings frames? - the inside size should be (scaled) 1524mm x 660mm for the main bodylights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Attached is a photo I've taken this evening following the 2E's emergence from the stripping fluid. As per my original estimates, the Hornby frame is far too small. It is the frame on the bottom left that has been placed in the correct position and just highlights the inaccuracy of Hornby's attempt. I am currently in the process of filing off all the moulded detail - more photos to follow as and when I've done some work on it: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/66166-Hornby-mk2e-window-frame-anomaly-highlighted-by-an-extreme-etchings-frame/ cheers Andy This is unspeakably poor accuracy. When in the same week I bagged three Hornby BGs for the price of two of these - ALL Railroad bear in mind - and the BGs capture the essence of their prototype as well as any of the opposition's. It's the inconsistency that beggars belief - in pricing, accuracy, delivery, availability, message, marketing: everything is all over the shop. Edited January 5, 2015 by 'CHARD 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Do you know Andy the dimensions of the Extreme Etchings frames? - the inside size should be (scaled) 1524mm x 660mm for the main bodylights. Hi Bob, yep, the EE dimensions are ( internally i.e the the glazed external apperture ) 20mm in length x 8.5mm in height. Equates to 5ft x 2ft 2" in actual size or as you quite rightly state 1524mm x 660mm.... The overall external size of the EE etch is 21.5mm in length x 10.25mm in height. My very good friend is the engineering manager on the Northern Belle so I have asked him if he would just cast a measure over a real AirCon Mk2 today, when he gets the chance - just to be doubly sure, however, I have the utmost faith in Brian Hanson's measurements! cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2015 Taking the data from Bob-65b's post (no 373), that should equate to 20.29mm x 8.68mm as the inside measurement. I am afraid i don't have any of the frames to hand but measuring the Lazerglaze inserts - presumably made to fit the original Airfix Mk 2d FO windows I get 19.9mm x 8.5mm. Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Taking the data from Bob-65b's post (no 373), that should equate to 20.29mm x 8.68mm as the inside measurement. I am afraid i don't have any of the frames to hand but measuring the Lazerglaze inserts - presumably made to fit the original Airfix Mk 2d FO windows I get 19.9mm x 8.5mm. Godfrey Sorry Godfrey, but Brian's frames are spot on. 20 mm x just over 8.5 mm (closer to 8.6mm ). I don't have a digital measuring device, so those measurements I gave were from a steel rule...... However, I have now spoken to my mate at Northern Belle and can confirm the following: Distance from underside of cantrail to the outside of the window frame is 9.25 inches (3.08mm in 4mm scale).Distance from underside of cantrail to the inside of the window frame is 11.5 inches (3.83mm in 4mm scale). That puts the centreline of the frame at 3.455mm from the cantrail, as near as damn it to the 3.5 mm on the model. Dimensions of the window itself are 26 x 60 inches, which is 8.66 x 20mm in 4mm scale. From what I can see, Hornby have made the following mistake. A Mk2 air con frame is made from alluminium with a lower milled, outer edge ( as per the Extreme etchings frame ), then there is a raised section of this alluminum frame which in turn is immendiately next to the glazing......... ( This is why on ScotRail Mk3's, you can see an alluminum colour different from the rest of the grey around the windows - they masked off the outer and lower part of the frame leaving the inner raised part of the frame in silver ) Having measured the Hornby Mk2E, the top of the frame is the correct distance from the cantrail ( 3.5 mm BUT THIS SHOULD BE THE OUTER PART OF THE FRAME, NOT THE INNER ) What Hornby have done for some inexplicable reason is to only measure the INNER part of the raised frame and use that as the overall size of the window frame ( on the Hornby model there is one continuous raised moulding around the whole apperture instead of the two part lower and raised frame wich Extreme Etchings have got spot on ) * What Airfix did was measure the WHOLE external apperture and made their frames to that measurement * When you then take the 0.5 mm or so on the EE frames around the outer, lower part of the frame and add that in total, it becomes apparent that although Hornby got the glazing apperture not far off, due to the original mis-measurement of the whole frame. their frames on the MK2E are to short and too far up the body by just over 1mm..............deep breath........ This is what gives the model an odd look and from my first hackings at the Hornby frames, I have opened them up to what they should be and the difference is apparent. Some modellers may think I'm being pernickety about this difference and that's fine, this is just my own opinion. However, when you start moving bits of livery up and down to mask the fact that they've measured the windows completely wrong, then that's when the visual differences start to appear. No doubt some modellers will pick holes in my own modelling, and again that's fine - but I want to get my models looking as real as my own limited skills will allow. I am fortunate in that I have the tools and eyesight ( for now - we're all getting older ) that will allow me to rectify this error and attempt to make the Hornby MK2E a better looking coach. cheers for now Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Attached is a photo of what I hope will clarify what I have discussed in the above thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/66167-mk2e-resized-apperture/ The pencil lines show where the Extreme Etchings will fit. This first bit of hacking also shows the discrepancy between the Hornby apperture ( from what they appear to have mis-measured ) and the correct sized apperture. As I stated before, once this mod has been done, the livery will now sit in all the correct places on the coach side therfore giving a visually pleasing and right looking coach. cheers Andy Edited January 5, 2015 by BigAndy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thanks Andy, Even stripped of paint, no glazing and with only one apertured modified, it's obvious how much your work will improve the look of the model. Are you taking orders? Alun 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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