Hornby Mk2e coaches

[robertcwp]

Original allocations of air-con Mark 2 stock were, so far as I can establish:

 

Mark 2d: ER: 23 FK, 23 BFK, 19 FO, 128 TSO, 17 BSO; LMR: 26 FK, 11 BFK, 28 FO - so 210 ER and 65 LMR, the latter all firsts, total 275.

 

Mark 2e: LMR: 12 FO, 89 TSO, 14 BSO; WR 43 FO, 71 TSO - so no brakes to the WR and few FOs to the LMR as their 23 were mostly to run with the 2d firsts - so 115 LMR and 114 WR, total 229.

 

Mark 2f: ER: 23 FO, 65 TSO; LMR: 105 FO, 146 TSO, 30 BSO; WR: 36 FO, 66 TSO - so 88 ER, 281 LMR, 102 WR, total 471.

 

For 2f, I think the TSO total includes the one that was converted to the experimental restaurant self-service.  Several BSOs were reallocated to the ER very early on and I'm not sure all 2fs ended up where they were originally intended to go.  The Harris book suggests some 2e stock went new to the ER but this appears to be in error, and 2e could not work with Deltics or 47 401-20 (nor could the LMR's 2d stock).

Edited November 17, 2014 by robertcwp

[brushman47544]

WR rakes in the 1970s most typically had a BG or sometimes a Mark IIc BSO.  The WR had no air-con brakes from new but acquired some 2d BFKs later on.  A typical early WR set was BG, 5TSO, RB, 3 FO - note that the BG was at the Bristol end. 

 

Thanks Robert. Strange, as I've clear memories and seen photos of WR rakes of air-cons with a Mk2 pressure ventilated FK coupled to one or more Mk2e/f FO in a WR set, which I always assumed were the Mk2b that later went into the Waterloo-Exeter sets (with brake compartments paired in the middle of the formation). This was when many WR rakes had a GUV at the London end and the FK was often coupled to it (early 80s?)

 

Personally I'm happy using a Bachmann Mk2a FK instead of a more correct Mk2b/c; the visual effect/memory is what I'm looking to recreate.

[robertcwp]

Thanks Robert. Strange, as I've clear memories and seen photos of WR rakes of air-cons with a Mk2 pressure ventilated FK coupled to one or more Mk2e/f FO in a WR set, which I always assumed were the Mk2b that later went into the Waterloo-Exeter sets (with brake compartments paired in the middle of the formation). This was when many WR rakes had a GUV at the London end and the FK was often coupled to it (early 80s?)

 

Personally I'm happy using a Bachmann Mk2a FK instead of a more correct Mk2b/c; the visual effect/memory is what I'm looking to recreate.

Might depend on which period you are thinking of.

[Brian Kirby]

In the 1970s the WR seemed to use 2A or 2B FKs indiscriminantly, same applies to TSOs, at least after the first year or so. At this time WR didn't have any 2C firsts of either type, they may have appeared on LMR cross-country services to WR from the mid-70s onwards. BTW, my 2E FO/TSO stats above were based on 1978 allocations, when the stock was at least five years old. So WR must have lost some 2E stock to LMR, when WR got their shiny new HSTs c.1976/7.    BK 

Edited November 17, 2014 by Brian Kirby

[jonathan452]

Original allocations of air-con Mark 2 stock were, so far as I can establish:

 

Mark 2d: ER: 23 FK, 23 BFK, 19 FO, 128 TSO, 17 BSO; LMR: 26 FK, 11 BFK, 28 FO - so 210 ER and 65 LMR, the latter all firsts, total 275.

 

Mark 2e: LMR: 12 FO, 89 TSO, 14 BSO; WR 43 FO, 71 TSO - so no brakes to the WR and few FOs to the LMR as their 23 were mostly to run with the 2d firsts - so 115 LMR and 114 WR, total 229.

 

Mark 2f: ER: 23 FO, 65 TSO; LMR: 105 FO, 146 TSO, 30 BSO; WR: 36 FO, 66 TSO - so 88 ER, 281 LMR, 102 WR, total 471.

 

For 2f, I think the TSO total includes the one that was converted to the experimental restaurant self-service.  Several BSOs were reallocated to the ER very early on and I'm not sure all 2fs ended up where they were originally intended to go.  The Harris book suggests some 2e stock went new to the ER but this appears to be in error, and 2e could not work with Deltics or 47 401-20 (nor could the LMR's 2d stock).

I would definately agree this was an error in the book.

[jonathan452]

Thanks Robert. Strange, as I've clear memories and seen photos of WR rakes of air-cons with a Mk2 pressure ventilated FK coupled to one or more Mk2e/f FO in a WR set, which I always assumed were the Mk2b that later went into the Waterloo-Exeter sets (with brake compartments paired in the middle of the formation). This was when many WR rakes had a GUV at the London end and the FK was often coupled to it (early 80s?)

 

Personally I'm happy using a Bachmann Mk2a FK instead of a more correct Mk2b/c; the visual effect/memory is what I'm looking to recreate.

Not forgetting the 'hotch potch' formations of the 'Jumbo' trains in the mid eighties-:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52794-1980s-west-country-train-formations/page-2

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcjcihlonBE&feature=endscreen&NR=1

[MJI]

WR rakes in the 1970s most typically had a BG or sometimes a Mark IIc BSO.  The WR had no air-con brakes from new but acquired some 2d BFKs later on.  A typical early WR set was BG, 5TSO, RB, 3 FO - note that the BG was at the Bristol end.  Like this image:

 

1937_WhiteWaltham_0807-WSM-Pad_31-1-73 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Here is a set with a 2c BSO, although some of the stock may be 2f rather than 2e:

 

47513_BPark_1600-Padd-Swan_19-8-76 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

 

Here is my 2C BSO

[robertcwp]

Here is my 2C BSO

2c.jpg

And here is mine - a Brian Kirby creation:

 

P1040837s by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited July 7, 2017 by robertcwp

[MJI]

I am going to have to do another because I need 1 WR and 1 MR

 

It may be going to Warley. I want to make a certain part etcher supply the frames, only been waiting since winter

[Southernman46]

P1040745.JPG

Looking at the photo - Is the Hornby version really only 3/4's (ish) the length of the Airfix version ?

Edited November 17, 2014 by Southernman46

[ifitlooksright]

Possibly the only time a Mk2f had a deeper blue stripe below roof? Glasgow - Edinburgh push pull.

[Bob Reid]

The DBSO's were originally painted to match the livery arrgt. of the Mk3a stock on the E&G service - hence the lower grey panel / deeper rail blue classification band.  The lower rail blue panel was also raised putting it about halfway up the commode handle rather than the norm of just above the bottom curve.

[ifitlooksright]

The DBSO's were originally painted to match the livery arrgt. of the Mk3a stock on the E&G service - hence the lower grey panel / deeper rail blue classification band.  The lower rail blue panel was also raised putting it about halfway up the commode handle rather than the norm of just above the bottom curve.

Does this mean that Mk3s were not matched to Mk2s on west coast trains livery wise? This picture answers my own question I guess. I never noticed when I travelled. It's like a spot the difference competition. Notice no yellow line on 1st class restaurant. So not as to go off topic I have found myself getting used to the new Mk2es livery blunder and phantom solebar ;-)

Edited November 18, 2014 by ifitlooksright

[westie7]

Had a good look at these in Harburn Hobbies yesterday, definitely in the railroad section.

Observations, some of which have been covered already.

The metal pushbar on the top of the droplight is painted the same colour as the grey panel making the top of the window appear short, simple fix.

There is no brake compartment interior as per the airfix original

The bottom of the grey area extends down to the bottom of the door side grab handle on the 2nd class, but to centre of the door handle on the other two.

The top of the grey area is consistent between the 1st and brake but well off on the 2nd.

In shirt between the top edge and bottom edge discrepancies, you really wouldn't want to run these together.

 

Let's hope the next releases improve on this

[ifitlooksright]

Had a good look at these in Harburn Hobbies yesterday, definitely in the railroad section.

Observations, some of which have been covered already.

The metal pushbar on the top of the droplight is painted the same colour as the grey panel making the top of the window appear short, simple fix.

There is no brake compartment interior as per the airfix original

The bottom of the grey area extends down to the bottom of the door side grab handle on the 2nd class, but to centre of the door handle on the other two.

The top of the grey area is consistent between the 1st and brake but well off on the 2nd.

In shirt between the top edge and bottom edge discrepancies, you really wouldn't want to run these together.

 

Let's hope the next releases improve on this

My railroad brake is the same as the TSO. Lower grey band.

[westie7]

Looks like it may be that there are many variances across batches, with careful selection where possible you could end up with grey bands that are close enough to blend in. The more people see the in the flesh the better the idea we'll get

[Brian Kirby]

I've just taken delivery of some red-box R4613 TSOs, they are physically the same as the Railroad version, apart from metal wheels, painted springs, window stickers and a separate bag containing a pair of dummy buckeyes. The latter are moulded in the upright horizontal position, which is a bit daft, since they'll only be noticed on the back of a train, when the buckeye is invariably in the dropped down position. These are as supplied with the new red-box Mk1s, i have managed to cut a pair down on a BG and mount them vertically, so they are still useful. Livery application and finish on these new red-box TSOs looks the same as the RR, this time you get both end gangways in half-black, half-white (????), but the now painted gangway doors are in the wrong colour of brilliant white, whereas to be pedantic, they should be fawn/mushroom colour (and my gangway surrounds are going all black). Surprisingly, the two small gangway door windows are still unglazed. The metal wheels are 12.5mm diameter, the same used on their inherited ex-Airfix 2D stock, which are okayish, but half a millimetre oversize, these latest ones have an anodized finish, so are not as shiny as before. 

 

I have added a few refinements to my 2E chassis carve-up, and i've re-wheeled and adjusted the height of the bogies, i'll do some pics later today.         

 

                                                                                       Cheers, Brian.

[cravensdmufan]

Many thanks to Brian for the updates on these coaches.

 

Seriously good work on improving the Railroad versions - but really, none of this should be necessary in this day and age to get a good model.

 

I looked at the Railroad Mk2e's at the Spalding exhibition at the weekend but couldn't bring myself to purchase even at £21 each - the grey colour looked so wrong let alone the "sole bar" issue.

 

Come on Hornby, you've produced some excellent stuff in the past, and continue to do so - but what went so wrong with these?

 

As a 1985-95 BR modeller, (heart sinks when I read of more ancient SR emu's) I was really looking forward to these, so major disappointment.

 

Just have to wait for the Bachmann 2f's now and hope for the best with those.   

[298]

Does this mean that Mk3s were not matched to Mk2s on west coast trains livery wise? This picture answers my own question I guess. I never noticed when I travelled. It's like a spot the difference competition. Notice no yellow line on 1st class restaurant. So not as to go off topic I have found myself getting used to the new Mk2es livery blunder and phantom solebar ;-)

TBH after looking through photos of mixed formations on the WCML, there is too much variation to find a conclusive answer...

 

But the grey band on MK3's can look narrower, I'll try to post some of the worst offending photos...:

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2014 by 298

[ifitlooksright]

TBH after looking through photos of mixed formations on the WCML, there is too much variation to find a conclusive answer...

 

But the grey band on MK3's can look narrower, I'll try to post some of the worst offending photos...:

 

IMAG0515_1_1.jpg

 

IMAG0516_1_1.jpg

 

IMAG0517_1_1.jpg

Cameras have a lot to answer for. Telephoto views exaggerate the differences in livery and coach height. We never complained to the guard that the livery was incorrectly applied and wanted a refund. So it is that I am finding the Mk2es more acceptable over time.It's like wallpapering, Every little mistake is fretted about but in the end it is forgotten and the overall effect is what is enjoyed. Colour difference is another red herring as look at the filth a lot of blue grey stock carried. All this and the deplorable H Mk3 is sending me back to maroon days with the odd blue / grey........

[andyman7]

Looking at the photo - Is the Hornby version really only 3/4's (ish) the length of the Airfix version ?

No, it's perspective as the camera was in front of the Mk2d

[robertcwp]

I now have three of the main range R4613 TSO.  For £23.10 each plus postage, they are not bad but they could easily have been much better.  When looked at from normal viewing angles and distances, the solebar issue is not really apparent although it's still a serious error.  The more noticeable thing in my view is the thick blue band above the windows, and there is no excuse for Hornby not having got this right.  The half-white gangways look daft but are easily dealt with.  I think the wheels are close enough.  The other issue is the blue, which is far too dark, and something in common with the recent batch of Mark III stock.  The roof is too smooth, with no suggestion of weld lines.

 

I would rate the main range ones as being tarted up Railroad rather than genuine high-quality models.  I have decided to have one set of 2e stock rather than the two planned originally and will have at least one, possibly two, sets of Bachmann 2f stock.

 

I hope Bachmann do a proper job of the 2f stock at least on a par with their recent sleepers, and hopefully without repeating the sleeper error of putting the wrong roof on 50% of the models.  Bachmann are not above making errors on coaching stock models. As previously noted, Bachmann got the livery wrong on the first batch of their Mark 2/2a stock, which spoilt the look of the models.  I ended up having the grey panels on mine repainted the correct depth by Brian Kirby and they look much better for it.  However, that was not Bachmann's only error as the ride height was too low, they put a BSO roof on the BFK and had the window vents on the Mark 2 FK far too deep, plus various more minor issues such as the wrong colour end-gangway doors on the 2a FK and BFK. More recently, Bachmann made a significant error with the ride height of their porthole stock too.

 

I think there is a clear opportunity for Bachmann to differentiate themselves from Hornby here.  Hornby's 2e stock is nowhere near the standard of the Maunsell stock or their Gresley and Thompson non-gangwayed stock and it's clear evidence of Hornby going downmarket.  If Bachmann can do a top-class job on the 2f stock, I'm sure they will sell well, plus they have more scope for livery variations and type modifications such as the DBSO and the buffet-first conversions.

[Brian Kirby]

As promised, here are some pics showing some extra work on my chopped up chassis. Bearing-in-mind that my method means that  we end up with a 1mm. step in the chassis floor, i've added a 1mm=40thou piece of plasticard to each end of the main chassis, then i add a larger piece of the same to bridge the now level joint. This helps to stabilize the four corners of the body on to the chassis, plus you can now fit a couple of body-retaining screws if you wish.

 

 

I've changed the wheels to 12mm. Bachmann 36-034 type, so having re-checked the buffer height, the next job is to give the bogie pivots more vertical movement, this is achieved by drilling down slightly on the top side of the bogie pivot holes. Then 1mm plastic packing pieces are added across the tops of the bogies, this will raise the body up from the bogies, to give a correct ride height.

 

 

So here is the raised body with the bogies re-equipped with Bachmann wheels and couplings. Next task is to correct the livery errors, as Robert says, the shade of blue is very dark, but i might leave that for now.    BK

 

 

[MJI]

Looking better Brian but should we have to do so much to a new model in this day and age?

 

I can accept moulded detail and cost cutting, but wrong shades of paint means respray, that "solebar" is a real pain.

 

I would expect a new model to be dimensionally accurate, the correct colourm and not have glaring faults.

 

If I am going to have to repaint I may as well fit laserglaze and extreme etching frames to my 2E from 2D conversions.

 

Airfix based you are looking at 2 - 4 hours body preparation, and about £20 of parts, plus a respray. These you are looking at £21-£23, plus wheels, and a respray. As I have around 16 I think (losing them to conversions, plus not sure what I bought), I may as well detail what I have.

 

Airfix body preparation is carve off frames, door handles, grab handles, roof handles. drill 28 holes on FO/FK/TSO, about 40 on a BSO/BFK, reprofile the bottom edge, file the window apertures until the glazing will fit from inside. I can do 1 a week while watching TV.

 

To be honest I am buying and converting for versions, a 2D 2E and 2F are not interchangeable, you do need the correct version. (And I do need to resize the door windows on my Airfix based 2F).

 

I will have two WR aircon sets to go with my WR 47/4s and 50s**, a ER NESW set I still require the 47 for, a MR set and I will also want a MR 2F set for WCML behind a 86.

 

The only issue is I have to cut the trains down to 4 or 5 vehicles so my ER NESW set will be BG TSO BAR FO TSO.

 

Any left over 2D TSOs will get the cut window treatment, ecept this time I will fill and recut, rather than splice.

 

And people thought I was mad coach spotting in the late 70s and 80.

 

Oh and wagon spotting helps with my mineral wagons and other BR bauxite stock.

 

** And my stretched Lima chassis keeps binding, Need to find a broken Hornby 50 for chassis.

[cravensdmufan]

Looking great now Brian, excellent work.

 

Too much for me to even contemplate doing a rake though.

 

I'm looking forward to reading the various magazine reviews for this effort from Hornby.  Just what went so wrong I wonder?  It's almost as though it was a rush job to get the coach out before the Bachmann 2f without doing proper research.  I'm afraid it's almost like going back 25 years.

 

Shame, because the latest SR emus, steam locos etc. all look good - but unfortunately they are not my era.  The only thing I have on order from Hornby now is the Trainload Coal Class 60, and I've been told by my supplier that's not due till summer next year!  For a model which is just a re-livery!  Dear oh dear.......!