Washout at Dawlish

[Coombe Barton]

Apparently (from the BBC News) some of the original surveying and initial works for the 1936 route is still in place.

[Siberian Snooper]

With regard to the withered arm, the bit between Meldon and Lydford is mostly in Sustrans hand ie a cycle path. Bridestowe Station is in private hands as is Brentor Station. There is an occupation bridge and a section of embankment out at Sourton Down, this was done for road access for the building of Meldon Dam. There are two masonary viaducts at Bearslake and Lydford which probably have not been structuraly surveyed since the line closed. Part of the trackbed is in private hands in the vicinity of the under bridge at the Brentor end of Lydford village. From there I am unsure of ownership to Brentor. On the approach to Tavistock the trackbed is in several private hands and there is also the Wallabrook viaduct which is probably in the same state as the others. Then you have the station and viaduct in Tavi which is owned by West Devon District Council.

 

On top of that there is an additional problem in that most of that section of line is within Dartmoor National park which brings additional planning problems and the Dartmoor preservation group which is another pain.

 

So I would suggest that re opening of it is probably a dead Mallard.

 

Just watching the local news and the rebuild at Dawlish will be to moderen resiliant standards, fingers crossed.

 

SS

[TheSignalEngineer]

The signalling was re-routed yesterday, tested and proved, and trains have started running between Plymouth and Newton Abbot as of this morning. We ran a shuttle from Paignton to Newton Abbot with pilotworking initially, but since the signalling there has been restored, that is obviously being signalled normally as well.

 

The engineers are also looking at extending the operational signalled area back to Teignmouth, when technically feasible.

Well done to those concerned, I'm glad to see that the old spirit and determination is alive and well at the sharp end

[The Border Reiver]

Rumor has it that FGW has reserved 3 of Allelys rigs and will be roading power cars to Laira for maintenance - probably out of St Philips Marsh and down the M5/A38.

[Vanders]

Rumor has it that FGW has reserved 3 of Allelys rigs and will be roading power cars to Laira for maintenance - probably out of St Philips Marsh and down the M5/A38.

 

If true, that brings us the possibility of seeing an HST passing over the GWML on the back of low loader driving along St. Philips Causeway!

[TheSignalEngineer]

If true, that brings us the possibility of seeing an HST passing over the GWML on the back of low loader driving along St. Philips Causeway!

Beats a bus on a bridge any day.

[deltic17]

One question I have which I don't think has been answered above is what time (overnight I presume?) did the slip occur and were trains completely suspended at the time (eg had the sleeper passed by?) - if they were suspended how did a unit get stranded at Teignmouth if I read things correctly?. Where I'm coming from here is the potential danger to a train being caught up in such a slip which luckily didn't happen here.

[Bomag]

With regard to the withered arm, the bit between Meldon and Lydford is mostly in Sustrans hand ie a cycle path. Bridestowe Station is in private hands as is Brentor Station. There is an occupation bridge and a section of embankment out at Sourton Down, this was done for road access for the building of Meldon Dam. There are two masonary viaducts at Bearslake and Lydford which probably have not been structuraly surveyed since the line closed. Part of the trackbed is in private hands in the vicinity of the under bridge at the Brentor end of Lydford village. From there I am unsure of ownership to Brentor. On the approach to Tavistock the trackbed is in several private hands and there is also the Wallabrook viaduct which is probably in the same state as the others. Then you have the station and viaduct in Tavi which is owned by West Devon District Council.

 

On top of that there is an additional problem in that most of that section of line is within Dartmoor National park which brings additional planning problems and the Dartmoor preservation group which is another pain.

 

So I would suggest that re opening of it is probably a dead Mallard.

 

Just watching the local news and the rebuild at Dawlish will be to moderen resiliant standards, fingers crossed.

 

SS

 

If it was a preserved railway then it would be a problem. There are legal routes for 'real' railways which would make these issues less of an problem.  Given how much some of the other NPs are trying to get railways rebuilt/upgraded  e.g. coast route/keswick for the lakes, the NP may want to support the reinstatement to reduce cars.

 

The benefit of the Southern route is that reinstatement would hit a whole lot of other transport objectives for central/western Devon

[Gary H]

With regard to the withered arm, the bit between Meldon and Lydford is mostly in Sustrans hand ie a cycle path. Bridestowe Station is in private hands as is Brentor Station. There is an occupation bridge and a section of embankment out at Sourton Down, this was done for road access for the building of Meldon Dam. There are two masonary viaducts at Bearslake and Lydford which probably have not been structuraly surveyed since the line closed. Part of the trackbed is in private hands in the vicinity of the under bridge at the Brentor end of Lydford village. From there I am unsure of ownership to Brentor. On the approach to Tavistock the trackbed is in several private hands and there is also the Wallabrook viaduct which is probably in the same state as the others. Then you have the station and viaduct in Tavi which is owned by West Devon District Council.

 

On top of that there is an additional problem in that most of that section of line is within Dartmoor National park which brings additional planning problems and the Dartmoor preservation group which is another pain.

 

So I would suggest that re opening of it is probably a dead Mallard.

 

Just watching the local news and the rebuild at Dawlish will be to moderen resiliant standards, fingers crossed.

 

SS

There is also the added stublimg block of that 2 more very substantial structures, namely the Tavy and Tammerton viaducts are certainly not upto the standards required to run large intercity trains, letalone freight! (read fragile!) The existing route itself needs major investment on its own.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but on this one there's stacks of negatives to address.

[Kris]

One question I have which I don't think has been answered above is what time (overnight I presume?) did the slip occur and were trains completely suspended at the time (eg had the sleeper passed by?) - if they were suspended how did a unit get stranded at Teignmouth if I read things correctly?. Where I'm coming from here is the potential danger to a train being caught up in such a slip which luckily didn't happen here.

 

No it happened during the day. If you look at the footage, you'll see trains making their way very cautiously along the line before the service was suspended when things got too dangerous. 

[BR(S)]

Not sure if this has been posted above but there's a good aerial photo: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/dawlish/

[NXEA!]

Most of the route to Okehampton is already 60mph railway, or was last time I used it - but as per my post earlier, if running time from Crediton-Okehampton-Crediton is currently just over an hour, then popping a loop (even a dynamic loop) in at Okehampton only allows 1tph per hour each way, you either need to double track it, or pop in an intermediate dynamic loop...(and again, you need to do the same thing in other places....if you spec it to have more than 1tph in each direction it quickly stops being quite such a simple, cheap, railway...)

I take your point about the loops and that's something I hadn't considered, but again, it doesn't need to be as expensive as that. IIRC Welshpool Dynamic Loop cost around £12m? IMO if the Okehampton route is ever reopened, it doesn't need to be something as fancy as that. A normal loop somewhere between Yeoford and Sampford Courtenay wouldn't need to cost more than around £5-7m, as would one between Okehampton-Tavistock, and a loop at Bere Alston. Looking at the projected timetable on the Kilbride website once Tavistock is up and running, a 150 should do Bere Alston - Keyham in 15 minutes (this is presumably after the line speed is raised which I assume must be the plan). If that's the case, that should about squeeze in 2tph in each direction, bearing in mind 1tph each way would be a non-stop diverted express which will take about 13 minutes for the above section. And in addition to that, any reopening would probably see Crediton-Yeoford remodeled slightly as a double-track section with the junction being at Yeoford, thus reducing the potential timetabling conflicts between passing services. So as an uneducated guess, in addition to reopening costs, you could make the route 2tph each way capable for around £30m.

 

And may I just say, I am sceptical too about any reopening, but I think it'd be foolish to write it off - again, look at the Waverley, a rural area which the Scots deem to be worth £300m (including 5 refurbished/new bridges) with less benefits than a reopened Okehampton route IMO, which could act as a diversionary route too, in addition to it being a catalyst for regeneration and new opportunities, like the Waverley.

Edited February 7, 2014 by NXEA!

[TrevorP1]

Not sure if this has been posted above but there's a good aerial photo: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/dawlish/

It would be interesting to see the concrete sparyer in action.

 

Trevor

[Captain Kernow]

It would be interesting to see the concrete sparyer in action.

 

Trevor

Some of my photos on the Whiteball blockade thread, in the 'Railways of Devon' sub-forum show this.

[Captain Kernow]

No it happened during the day. If you look at the footage, you'll see trains making their way very cautiously along the line before the service was suspended when things got too dangerous. 

In fact, trains were being cautioned on Monday morning under our standing instructions for bad weather, when the supervisor in charge decided that conditions were so bad, and that there was already so much debris on the track, that all services should be suspended. We had started to look at repairs with a view to reopening a couple of days later, depending on the weather, but then the storm of Tuesday night caused the actual wash-out. The unit that was trapped in Teignmouth was working a shuttle from Newton Abbot that night, when the breach at Sea Lawn Terrace caused the signalling to be lost (cables severed), so there was no signalled route for it back to Newton Abbot at the time.

[APOLLO]

What would be the (back of a fag packet) cost of either of the inland diversions against the current proposal to re-instate the existing route THEN build a VERY substantial new sea wall, in front of the existing one by several metres, which would have the dual purpose of protecting both the existing railway and the town of Dawlish ?. A breakwater further out to sea may also be required. Something substantial needs to be done, NOW. This could be done and completed over the coming summer if fingers where extracted. Where is our engineering prowess these days?, I'm sure (somewhere) we still have it.

 

Don't say we can't afford it - we are one of the richest countries in the world (so I an told !!). Time the "Lords" and "Sirs" who govern us started to earn their keep, over-paid and mega bonus bankers also.

 

I'm also surprised at the seeming lack of forward contingency planning for such events by our railway owners & operators. When I worked in the Gas industry we had (and hopefully still have) in place all the procedures and resource locations / requirements etc for serious incidents, right up to loosing gas supplies complete area networks. We never lost a network, but had a few large town loss of supply incidents. The forward planning came into play immediately, supplies reinstated ASAP in all cases. Money was no object back then in such incidents.

 

Re Dawlish, I'm certainly not complaining re the management & men at the incident, rather those at very senior level (incl Government) who seem only to deal in cutting & saving ££££.

 

Brit15

[Mallard60022]

a catalyst for regeneration and new opportunities.....

that's what I like to read. I wish I'd thought to write something like that. I wonder if there could be a bold decision to build an 'alternative cut off route' (wherever) even with the sea front line fully rebuilt and fully protected?  

P

Edited February 7, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Captain Kernow]

This photo has been circulated, taken by someone in the works team at Dawlish, showing the earthworks done to shore up the vulnerable properties above, and the temporary placement of old track panels, to help guard against rough seas tonight:

 

[robmcg]

Personally I blame Brunel.    Should have stayed with the London and South Western.  Harrumph.

[Captain Kernow]

Tim, it might be useful for the S&H staff to investigate the micro-ETS developed for use on the WHR (which conveniently has an ERTMS interface as well!) as a means of rapid response due to line failures like at Dawlish. Hook up a unit in the control room then get its counterpart into the local signalling cabinet and have them communicate via the interweb. All it needs is a communication channel, doesn't have to be a BT land line either

Thanks Vincent - the actual solution was pretty straightforward in the end, as it turned out, but I can mention the above (much will depend on what is - or isn't - type-approved for use on NR).

[Garry Morris]

some facts:

1 It is not acceptable to reverse trains twice to get to Penzance.

2. There are no big revenue earning centres of population on the other route.

3.Paignton, Torquay, Newton Abbot and Totnes must remain connected to London for political reasons.

These three reasons alone are why the Okehampton route will never be considered unless our country develops anything like a smidgeon of interest in Green issues. Ironically in a perverse way I think that this incident at Dawlish is the final nail of any chance of restoring Okehampton or Tavistock to the main network.

[Captain Kernow]

What would be the (back of a fag packet) cost of either of the inland diversions against the current proposal to re-instate the existing route THEN build a VERY substantial new sea wall, in front of the existing one by several metres, which would have the dual purpose of protecting both the existing railway and the town of Dawlish ?. A breakwater further out to sea may also be required. Something substantial needs to be done, NOW. This could be done and completed over the coming summer if fingers where extracted. Where is our engineering prowess these days?, I'm sure (somewhere) we still have it.

 

Don't say we can't afford it - we are one of the richest countries in the world (so I an told !!). Time the "Lords" and "Sirs" who govern us started to earn their keep, over-paid and mega bonus bankers also.

 

I'm also surprised at the seeming lack of forward contingency planning for such events by our railway owners & operators. When I worked in the Gas industry we had (and hopefully still have) in place all the procedures and resource locations / requirements etc for serious incidents, right up to loosing gas supplies complete area networks. We never lost a network, but had a few large town loss of supply incidents. The forward planning came into play immediately, supplies reinstated ASAP in all cases. Money was no object back then in such incidents.

 

Re Dawlish, I'm certainly not complaining re the management & men at the incident, rather those at very senior level (incl Government) who seem only to deal in cutting & saving ££££.

 

Brit15

I'm really too knackered to respond to this now, but your statements don't really add up on a number of levels, sorry. We don't do 'back of a fag packet' in NR. Projects like this have to be properly planned, funded, subject to appropriate corporate governance and other legal requirements. To suggest that we could design, plan, consult and build the new sea wall, all 3+ miles of it during the next 9 months simply beggars belief.

 

As for forward planning - this is something that I have been much involved in with this wall over the years. What (exactly) would you have us do differently?

 

(There, I've gone and responded after all...!)

[TrevorP1]

Thanks for that last photo Capatain. It goes without saying that let's hope it does the job.

 

Found this clip which shows concrete spraying. (No sound by the way). 

 

 

Trevor

[APOLLO]

Captain Kernow - Apologies to you, I certainly meant no disrespect to you or your NR colleagues.

 

I was thinking of forward planning on a higher (Governmental / NR Director) level. Dawlish is a known pinch point that has the ability to cripple a large part of the system if / when it "goes". It was just a matter of time, and that time was this week. I  am of the opinion that the high level forward planning for Dawlish (and other pinch points on major routes) should have been done years ago, so that long term permanent remedial action could begin almost immediately.

 

As for fag packet costing, I should have said "which option would be most cost effective"

 

Once again, sorry if I have come across wrong, it's bloody tough at the sharp end, especially for you and your teams. Good luck and hope things go well over the weekend re the weather etc.

 

Brit15

[TheSignalEngineer]

............................. To suggest that we could design, plan, consult and build the new sea wall, all 3+ miles of it during the next 9 months simply beggars belief.

 

I was looking at a timetable for when various environmental surveys and removals can take place during a meeting with NR yesterday. To comply with all of the various conditions would take 12 months at least. At one project I was involved in we spent several weeks chasing sand lizards and putting them outside the animal barrier. Elsewhere we had to build a newt pond in good time to get it in the right condition for the relocation window, and an environmental survey found a rare chalk loving butterfly living on the water softener sludge from an old steam shed.