OO gauge J94 Austerity Tank locomotive

[Tim Hall]

Why did the Model Rail sample need to be recalled before the review was published?

To stop some of us drowning in our own drool?

[PMP]

I can understand that Tim if the product were exceptional.

[dibber25]

Why did the Model Rail sample need to be recalled before the review was published, and has this affected any of the other magazines apart from BRM?

 

(N.b. Just for clarification MR haven't yet published)

It should really be for the manufacturer to answer that question. I understand it was because some incorrect detail parts (ladders or pipes) were fitted on a version that should not have had them. Unfortunately the recall happened a couple of hours after we'd said that we'd be reviewing it in MR225. The model was returned immediately and at this time we don't have a replacement. (CJL)

[black and decker boy]

Hi,

 

On the J94 all wheels are geared and as such driven.

HTH

cheers

Dave

Not really a help I'm afraid. The problem is knowing if the wheels can be pulled out along the axle to give EM spacing and still perform reliably. Simple on other manufacturers with metal axles but can a plastic axle cope?

 

If the axle & gear are one plastic moulding then replacement with 3rd party products could also be difficult

 

Looks like my orders will be binned until it all becomes clear as I cannot justify £300 of loco sat on a shelf which is a big shame as the model looks delightful and I have been eager to get them for my colliery especially with the shows I am attending in the spring.

[DJM Dave]

Just out of curiosity what happens to the pre-production or production models which are "out of spec"? Unless they're cannibalised for spares could we buy then and sign a disclaimer acknowledging that there may be errors, and that we won't put them on auction sites as "rare factory misbuild".

Hi,

To clear this up, the factory sent out to me 3 press / advertising review samples. Unfortunately all 3 were fitted with a water tank ladder that wasn't specified, and as these were in the box 'facing' to the left, I didn't pick this up as I didn't want to remove the loco's from the boxes, as I have always preferred to keep the loco's factory fresh for reviews so that what you read in any review isn't a manipulated model in anyway since leaving China.

 

It came apparent that these were faulty , for want of a better word, once a reviewer contacted me to point this out. And so I withdrew them from the press, and contacted a checked the main batch and found the same fault with 300 models and agreed to scrap all 300 and build a new batch at their cost.

 

This has taken 3 weeks, and the whole batch are due to be shipped any day now.

 

Any ep samples are kept by me as 'museum pieces' or momento's if you wish, and I won't be disposing them any time soon especially as it's my first true DJM model.

 

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Dave

[PMP]

Presumably BRM reviewed models different to the faulty samples? If so when will the other magazines get the opportunity to review models in the same liveries BRM used. Presumably there's stock of those if you're sending out factory representative stock for a magazine to review?

[thecheesemiester]

This has taken 3 weeks, and the whole batch are due to be shipped any day now.

 

by that do you mean they are in the UK ready to go out to the customer, or about to go onto the water?

[DJM Dave]

Presumably BRM reviewed models different to the faulty samples? If so when will the other magazines get the opportunity to review models in the same liveries BRM used. Presumably there's stock of those if you're sending out factory representative stock for a magazine to review?

Sorry I've no knowledge of the samples you speak of unless they are the Hattons ones?

They certainly aren't the DJM release ones as apart from the wrong' un, no others of the DJM release ones have gone to magazines yet.

Cheers

Dave

[Bernard Lamb]

Not really a help I'm afraid. The problem is knowing if the wheels can be pulled out along the axle to give EM spacing and still perform reliably. Simple on other manufacturers with metal axles but can a plastic axle cope?

 

If the axle & gear are one plastic moulding then replacement with 3rd party products could also be difficult

 

Looks like my orders will be binned until it all becomes clear as I cannot justify £300 of loco sat on a shelf which is a big shame as the model looks delightful and I have been eager to get them for my colliery especially with the shows I am attending in the spring.

I think that is rather hard on Dave.

I do not see how you can be critical of what he is doing when you are one of a very small percentage of potential sales who wants to alter the gauge.

Ironically it was Dapol with the original J94 who sold it with an alternative set of wheels for a wider gauge. That experiment did not last long.

I believe Dave is 100% correct in trying to get a top class drive system at a reasonable price. If anyone  wants to change it they need the skill, time and cash to do so. There are plenty of after market options available. If you think it is a better starting point than any other option then buy it. If not then go elsewhere, but please don't moan at the bloke who is trying as hard as he can to get a model to market and earn a few bob.

Bernard

[Wheatley]

.

[Les1952]

I think that is rather hard on Dave.

I do not see how you can be critical of what he is doing when you are one of a very small percentage of potential sales who wants to alter the gauge.

Ironically it was Dapol with the original J94 who sold it with an alternative set of wheels for a wider gauge. That experiment did not last long.

I believe Dave is 100% correct in trying to get a top class drive system at a reasonable price. If anyone  wants to change it they need the skill, time and cash to do so. There are plenty of after market options available. If you think it is a better starting point than any other option then buy it. If not then go elsewhere, but please don't moan at the bloke who is trying as hard as he can to get a model to market and earn a few bob.

Bernard

 

I would agree with that.

 

Remember that 60% of the UK market is OO (not OO/EM/Scale4), 20% is N and all others put together make up the remaining 20%.  Given the apparent number of modellers in O, bigger than O, and TT etc etc, and the number of different narrow gauge options I would be VERY surprised if EM and P4/Scale4 together amounted to as much as 5% of the market.

 

So, given that the numbers wanting to change wheels for wider-to-gauge ones MIGHT make an additional twelfth, is it reasonable to possibly compromise what is now known to be an excellent mechanism, and would it justify the extra tooling costs?

 

I'm glad I'm not putting my money behind that one. 

 

Les

[black and decker boy]

It's not a criticism, merely a fact of life, it's a model I need and make very good use of on my layout. I have been caught out by the Heljsn 05 which has poorly profiled wheels and so cannot be easily converted and there are no aftermarket wheels suitable. Result is 2 models sat in boxes waiting, fingers crossed for a solution.

 

To risk another £300 for the same result would be negligent. I asked for information as that is the purpose of a forum and I know that Dave will be emailing all those who have preordered and so that will not be the time to have such a discussion.

 

Hopefully conversion will prove possible (I think some of the DJM / KMRC 02 have been done so if the same principles have been used, happy days).

 

I want DJM to do well with this as the Hudswrll clarke would also be good for me but same issues apply.

[mightbe]

I think that is rather hard on Dave ......

 

I can't quite agree--it's a reasonable concern. Nearly all recent releases are at least able to be converted without binning the chassis. Now, some elect to build a replacement, but more often than not it's optional and not required.

 

As I understand it, the drive mechanism chosen won't be compatible with any aftermarket wheel swaps. I would've pre-ordered one but then I discovered that it would be nearly impossible to convert it to P4, so I declined. It's worth remembering that--all things considered--a fairly large number of modellers replace factory wheel sets for finer ones. The practice isn't solely limited to P4 and EM modellers.

 

On the positive side, Dave has intimated that undecorated body shells may become available in the guise of spares, which gives those of us so-inclined access to the model without the added expense of a potentially useless mechanism.

 

Quentin

[BG John]

I know it's still a long way off, but I haven't pre-ordered a Kernow Railmotor because I've read of the difficulties of converting other DJM designed locos. If I can't convert it to EM, or can only do it at considerable expense, it's of absolutely no use to me. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a clear, "Yes", "No", or "I don't know" answer to questions about the potential for conversion. If I had doubts about something I'd pre-ordered, I'd have to cancel my order, and risk missing out if it later turns out it could have been converted.

[durham light infantry]

I know it's still a long way off, but I haven't pre-ordered a Kernow Railmotor because I've read of the difficulties of converting other DJM designed locos. If I can't convert it to EM, or can only do it at considerable expense, it's of absolutely no use to me. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a clear, "Yes", "No", or "I don't know" answer to questions about the potential for conversion. If I had doubts about something I'd pre-ordered, I'd have to cancel my order, and risk missing out if it later turns out it could have been converted.

I wholeheatedly support Dave in his efforts to bring something new to the marketplace, but we do need a definitive answer.

 

Unfortunately it looks like those who make the effort to model in finescale are being penalised by the silent majority, albeit unwittingly. I bet there are more models that won't make it out of the box at all,than are likely to be converted. Which makes it even more galling.

 

Mike

[BG John]

I wholeheatedly support Dave in his efforts to bring something new to the marketplace, but we do need a definitive answer.

 

Unfortunately it looks like those who make the effort to model in finescale are being penalised by the silent majority, albeit unwittingly. I bet there are more models that won't make it out of the box at all,than are likely to be converted. Which makes it even more galling.

 

Mike

I support what Dave is doing too, but as you say, it does cause problems. My next finescale projects are based on butchering Hornby 2721 pannier bodies. The bodies are cheap to buy second hand, and easily available with or without a chassis. Any spare chassis will end up under O-16.5 locos eventually, and it's practical and affordable to build a finescale chassis for the loco. I doubt if Dave's locos will end up on the secondhand market at prices where I can afford to do that, and it may not be so practical if they do, even though the accuracy and detail is far better.

[Phil Parker]

As I understand it, the drive mechanism chosen won't be compatible with any aftermarket wheel swaps. I would've pre-ordered one but then I discovered that it would be nearly impossible to convert it to P4, so I declined. It's worth remembering that--all things considered--a fairly large number of modellers replace factory wheel sets for finer ones. The practice isn't solely limited to P4 and EM modellers.

 

 

Surely "any CURRENT aftermarket wheel swaps". There's nothing to say that someone won't come up with a replacement set of wheels if the demand is there - drop-in wheelsets for diesels complete with gears are available after all.

 

I wonder if the "fairly large" number of people swapping wheels who aren't EM/P4 modellers is much into double figures nowadays on modern RTR though.

[BG John]

Surely "any CURRENT aftermarket wheel swaps". There's nothing to say that someone won't come up with a replacement set of wheels if the demand is there - drop-in wheelsets for diesels complete with gears are available after all.

With pre-ordering and limited production though, doesn't that mean that replacement wheel sets have to be available before orders close, which could be before production of the loco, when only the designer and manufacturer have the necessary specifications?

[mightbe]

Surely "any CURRENT aftermarket wheel swaps". There's nothing to say that someone won't come up with a replacement set of wheels if the demand is there - drop-in wheelsets for diesels complete with gears are available after all.

 

I wonder if the "fairly large" number of people swapping wheels who aren't EM/P4 modellers is much into double figures nowadays on modern RTR though.

 

If it's anything like the Beattie well tank it'll have a split frame and stubs, which makes the chassis unfit for a 'typical' conversion involving a single axle with gear in the middle and wheels on each end. A replacement set would look something like this: https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT007/534

 

The trouble is that Ultrascale doesn't seem interested in expanding its range at present, what with a 7 month delay already. It seems they're accepting commissions for one-off conversion. I suspect it's rather expensive. AFAIK, Gibson has never offered anything quite like a stub-axle conversion set, or even split axles.

 

I would hazard that, if anything, the number of RTR models being converted to EM/P4 has gone up due to massive quality improvements in tooling etc. Even if only 10% of 4mm modellers use EM and P4, those modellers are perhaps more willing to convert RTR locos than they once were (as a group). It's worth mentioning that between AG, Ultrascale, (latterly Exactoscale) and C&L have made great strides in making EM--and P4 in particular--more accessible to the less-craftsmanly crowd. I would be surprised if the overall percentage of EM and P4 modellers hasn't increased somewhat over the last 20 years.

 

Quentin

[Porcy Mane]

Surely "any CURRENT aftermarket wheel swaps". There's nothing to say that someone won't come up with a replacement set of wheels if the demand is there - drop-in wheelsets for diesels complete with gears are available after all.

 

I wonder if the "fairly large" number of people swapping wheels who aren't EM/P4 modellers is much into double figures nowadays on modern RTR though.

 

Perhaps you should consider widening your show attendances so that you may gauge other aspects of the 4mm scale railway hobby? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112791-mrj-248/?view=findpost&p=2381198

 

Although it may not be necessary to do that; as from a quick trawl through RMweb over the last eight years or so you will see that there is a reluctance from specialist 4 mm wheel manufactures to develop (for various reasons) replacement wheel sets for recently introduced locomotives. There have been attempts by various parties and by various means to commission wheels for Hornby Britannia, Bachmann 9F, Dapol Beattie Well Tank etc. and all has come to nought. Virtually all that has been seen is a bespoke conversion carried out a premium cost.

 

With replacement wheel manufactures current unwillingness to develop even standard replacement wheel-sets that for steam engines in the most, rely on the purchaser carrying out assembly, I would think it highly unlikely they will expend effort developing a pre-assembled composite wheel-set that not only would need the quartering setting, but would also need the quartering to be synchronised with the cogging of the gears on each axle.

 

It's not my place to offer business or design advice to a manufacturer and there are probably a commercial engineering & production  factors that come in to play as to why DJM/Dapol has decided to offer this all wheel drive system on steam outline models but it has prevented a number of my modelling associates from ordering/purchasing DJM models.

 

Les postulated that the EM/P4 modeller may only constitute some 5% of possible purchasers in the 4mm railway model market. That may be the case, so if I was a new manufacturer entering a highly competitive field my aim would be to do everything to capture 100% of potential custom. Not engineer a design that would drive 5% of my market to look at competitors products. Maybe DJM would contemplate manufacture/retail of replacement wheel/gear combinations for the more accurate gauges but somehow, probably down to cost grounds, I suspect this will never happen.

 

In case you haven't seen it, here is how the chassis/Wheels/gears are assembled for the Adams 02.

 

 

P

[Les1952]

 There have been attempts by various parties and by various means to commission wheels for Hornby Britannia, Bachmann 9F, Dapol Beattie Well Tank etc. and all has come to nought. Virtually all that has been seen is a bespoke conversion carried out a premium cost.

 

Maybe DJM would contemplate manufacture/retail of replacement wheel/gear combinations for the more accurate gauges but somehow, probably down to cost grounds, I suspect this will never happen.

 

 

 

P

 

My guess is that the tooling costs of manufacturing bespoke replacement wheel/gear conversions for any LIMITED RUN locomotive (which is effectively what most are these days) would put the price of these into the same bracket as the "bespoke conversion carried out at a premium cost".

 

Remember that tooling costs must be divided by the number made- if you only made ONE ball-point pen it would cost about ten grand- it is ONLY cheap because they make millions.....

 

Les

[jjb1970]

I think that it would be nice to offer easy in EM/P4 conversion for models. Ultimately, and this may be brutal, it is a commercial consideration for the suppliers in terms of the cost and effort needed and potential sales. If the market is large enough to make it worth the effort then I think manufacturers will do it, if not then they won't. I'm not against the idea, I support it, but I can also see that if I was a supplier I'd expect it to be worth my effort to do so.

[DJM Dave]

My guess is that the tooling costs of manufacturing bespoke replacement wheel/gear conversions for any LIMITED RUN locomotive (which is effectively what most are these days) would put the price of these into the same bracket as the "bespoke conversion carried out at a premium cost".

 

Remember that tooling costs must be divided by the number made- if you only made ONE ball-point pen it would cost about ten grand- it is ONLY cheap because they make millions.....

 

Les

Hi,

 

I remember in a previous job, I was approached to make different wheel sets for the loco's I was designing, and I said 'OK' prove to me there is a market that could satisfy the minimum order quantity needed to make this a viable proposition.

 

I'm not going to name names here as it's unfair, but needless to say 35 or so wheel sets were not going to cut any mustard with the Chinese, my CEO at the time, and the end user (price wise).

 

Once a quote was given, the chap who requested it dropped the idea when I had to give him a quote that didn't meet his expectations.

 

Cheers

Dave

[BG John]

It's not my place to offer business or design advice to a manufacturer and there are probably a commercial engineering & production  factors that come in to play as to why DJM/Dapol has decided to offer this all wheel drive system on steam outline models but it has prevented a number of my modelling associates from ordering/purchasing DJM models.

 

Hi,

 

I remember in a previous job, I was approached to make different wheel sets for the loco's I was designing, and I said 'OK' prove to me there is a market that could satisfy the minimum order quantity needed to make this a viable proposition.

 

I'm not going to name names here as it's unfair, but needless to say 35 or so wheel sets were not going to cut any mustard with the Chinese, my CEO at the time, and the end user (price wise).

 

Once a quote was given, the chap who requested it dropped the idea when I had to give him a quote that didn't meet his expectations.

 

Cheers

Dave

Which doesn't answer the question about designing a product in a way that makes it unusable by 5% of the total market.

 

Surely it also gives the product a limited life, as if/when it fails or wears out in some years time, it will be long out of guarantee, and no spares will be available. At least with older simpler designs they could be more easily repaired. As a limited run model, you won't even be able to buy a new replacement.

 

I'm about to clean up/refurbish a couple of Airfix locos I've had for around 35 years. If there's a problem with them it won't be difficult to do some sort of repair. I suspect a 35 year old all wheel drive chassis with custom components would just be heading for landfill.

[durham light infantry]

I think Dave's position on this is clear, which is a shame considering Rapido and SLW both designed convertability into their models from the outset.

 

It is rather iniquitous that a percentage of this new all singing all dancing mechanism will sit on shelves, never turning a wheel. Whilst those of us who can be bothered to do some modelling have another drain on our most precious resource, time.

 

Mike